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  1. #81
    "Bring the player not the class" was a terrible idea to begin with. It's the reason for the removal of classes from their niche. Homogenization of the classes has been completely pointless and futile for well over a decade now.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Planetdune View Post
    This seemed to be the stance of Blizzard a while back. Why do I find myself searching for a second priest and DK for Heroic Zul? Why is it so much easier with 2 warlocks and solo runners on G'huun?

    Now I am sure these fights are possible with a less ideal setup but not having the two priests on Zul just makes it so much harder that, at least for us, it seems you NEED to have them. Thing is we unfortunately only have 1 priest on progression raids and need to be lucky and get a pug every week. This all seems against the "bring the player, not the class" mantra..
    TBH, that mantra, like every other simplistic black and white concept, was stupid from the very beginning. Blizz slowly learned this in the intervening years.

    The problem right now is that, consistent with how they address most issues, they swung the pendulum way too far in the other direction. Some of the designs in BfA dungeons and the raid are so narrowly focused on specific skills that they forgot to allow for alternatives. The difference between, say, the original BC Moroes fight and G'huun isn't that you actually need priests back then (I ran it many times sans priests), just that they made it a bit easier. There were a myriad of other ways to contain or kite in that fight (as mentioned, I did it many times with far less than optimal groups)...whereas G'huun makes it substantially more punishing sans warlocks and solo runners.

    And, considering how the rest of the expansion behaves, it really does look like the interns were responsible for many key elements of the designs.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Of course, however, you cannot raise the argument "Class X has Y, so they're fine" while Class A,B and C also have Y.
    At its core, you need only one Mage / Hunter / Shaman for Bloodlust, if you already have a Mage, you don't need a Shaman / Hunter for Bloodlust.

    Same is true for dispels.

    And Blizzard has handed out debuffs to Monks and DH that basically make them mandatory, which they cannot possibly justify via class fantasy because debuffs were made up just for BfA.
    The DH debuff even reuses the Spell-ID from Curse of Elements.

    So yeah, not every class / spec can be mandatory in every situation, on the other hand, Blizzard just picked two classes and made them mandatory for [reasons].
    All I'm saying that Shamans have a bunch of potentially very useful utility. Most of the mandatory stuff is pointless in reality anyway, since the vast majority of guilds will always have one mage or priest in their lineup anyway, purely based on class population.

    I think DH and Monk raid buffs are an attempt to enforce melee lineup diversity and keep guilds from just stacking rogues and warriors on their rosters.


    When?
    And don't say 8.1 now, adding two new talents that kinda suck and a few QoL changes aren't a rework.
    It's probably as much as you can expect mid-expansion.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Alphatorg View Post
    All I'm saying that Shamans have a bunch of potentially very useful utility. Most of the mandatory stuff is pointless in reality anyway, since the vast majority of guilds will always have one mage or priest in their lineup anyway, purely based on class population.
    The problem is that said "very useful utility" is not as useful if it's already brought by another class.
    You even say it yourself, a lot of raids have one Mage, thus Bloodlust is already out of the window, dispel too due Priest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alphatorg View Post
    I think DH and Monk raid buffs are an attempt to enforce melee lineup diversity and keep guilds from just stacking rogues and warriors on their rosters.
    DH and WW were already popular in Legion.
    The Melee specs that are barely used are SV,Feral and Enhance, might throw in Ret in there as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alphatorg View Post
    It's probably as much as you can expect mid-expansion.
    Waiting half an expansion until your class is finished is outright pathetic, especially if the devs outright acknowledge before release that something is not done.

    Especially if there is only one big raid to come after Battle of Dazar'alor, as most expansions turned out to be three tiered raids and 8.1 is the second tier.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2018-11-10 at 04:03 PM.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    The problem is that said "very useful utility" is not as useful if it's already brought by another class.
    You even say it yourself, a lot of classes have one Mage, thus Bloodlust is already out of the window, dispel too due Priest.
    Yes but you can't expect every class or even spec to be mandatory. And in reality utility forces one mage into the raid just as one resto shaman has been a staple in most tiers.

    DH and WW were already popular in Legion.
    The Melee specs that are barely used are SV,Feral and Enhance, might throw in Ret in there as well.
    WW was popular due to being broken in terms of output in legion, in BFA howeve they don't have a lot of parses on G'huun despite their debuff. DHs are popular regardless of numbers or output and utility, because they are new and "cool". It makes sense for Blizzard to ensure their raid slots to some degree, to avoid having loads of people being forced to reroll from their desired class. Another reason might be that both these classes also have tank specs available to them.
    SV Hunters actually have fairly good output as far as I know, imho they aren't represented well because Hunters in general are seen and recruited as a ranged class, by most guilds.
    Much like SV Hunters, Feral, Enhance and Ele are lost specs at this point. They aren't popular archetypes, most/"all" good players who enjoy the spec have rerolled or quit and they have a bad reputation. No serious player want to go into an expansion maining one of them, because they have a history of being (perceived as) useless and no guild is actively looking for them.
    Even when these specs are doing well in terms of output (like Enhance in Antorus, they even had very useful utility for Argus) only few people want to play them. The only way to change this is by straight up forcing raids into using them, either by making them overpowered for several raids or by giving them mandatory utility. But why would Blizzard do that?


    Waiting half an expansion until your class is finished is outright pathetic, especially if the devs outright acknowledge before release that something is not done.

    Especially if there is only big raid to come after Battle of Dazar'alor, as most expansions turned out to be three tiered raids and 8.1 is the second tier.

    I don't think anyone believes that Blizzard did not release an unfinished expansion.
    Last edited by Alphatorg; 2018-11-10 at 04:15 PM.

  6. #86
    Bloodsail Admiral Debased's Avatar
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    This is why shadow is an F-tier spec. 0 fucking utility. Yeah there is mass dispel, but come on, if you don't have a priest healer you're basically do it wrong.
    "Just when I thought I was out... they pull me back in!"

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Alphatorg View Post
    Yes but you can't expect every class or even spec to be mandatory. And in reality utility forces one mage into the raid just as one resto shaman has been a staple in most tiers.
    Yeah, like i acknowledged already three posts ago.
    The issue is that a lot of those specs aren't strong on their gameplay side as well.

    No unique Utility / (de)buff + bad performance = Bad spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alphatorg View Post
    WW was popular due to being broken in terms of output in legion, in BFA howeve they don't have a lot of parses on G'huun despite their debuff.
    What does their debuff have to do with their performance?
    It just shows that they're being used despite bad performance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alphatorg View Post
    DHs are popular regardless of numbers or output and utility, because they are new and "cool".
    That is a myth that the Monk has disproven.
    If a new class isn't any good, they're not being played, Monks were kinda weak at the start of MoP, thus no one used them.

    DH's have decent Single Target, good burst AoE, great mobility and great defense, they are one of the best Melees in the game right now.
    Trying to justify their popularity with just "new and cool" is ignorance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alphatorg View Post
    It makes sense for Blizzard to ensure their raid slots to some degree, to avoid having loads of people being forced to reroll from their desired class.
    ...yeah, but as someone that wants to play Dps Shaman in raids that is seemingly acceptable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alphatorg View Post
    Another reason might be that both these classes also have tank specs available to them.
    I don't think we need to open up the can of worms that is Tank balance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alphatorg View Post
    Much like SV Hunters, Feral, Enhance and Ele are lost specs at this point. They aren't popular archetypes, most/"all" good players who enjoy the spec have rerolled or quit and they have a bad reputation. No serious player want to go into an expansion maining one of them, because they have a history of being (perceived as) useless and no guild is actively looking for them.
    Oh that is just bullshit.
    That is the same "community perception" card that Ion pulled, it just blames bad balance on the players.

    I'm going to use Monk again as an example, WW Monks were awful in MoP, then they suddenly got awesome, especially in Legion, Monks popped up left and right.
    Another example, SP in early Legion, they were OP, a lot of people went for SP, they got nerfed, people stopped playing SP.

    Last example from from a decade ago: Ret Paladins, Rets got super OP with Wotlk, suddenly people played Ret, despite being regarded as "not good" throughout Vanilla and BC.

    Fact is, a chunk of this playerbase plays what's best.

    Hardcore people check to see if a spec is any good, then play it, other people see that and play them as well, it's a trickle down effect.

    And there are still halfway decent people playing those specs, those would do well if those specs were actually balanced (which they aren't).

    Quote Originally Posted by Alphatorg View Post
    Even when these specs are doing well in terms of output (like Enhance in Antorus, they even had very useful utility for Argus) only few people want to play them.
    Because Enhance's sole strong point was ST Dps.
    Their Defense is bad, their mobility is.
    No really good utility of speak of (Windrush wasn't exactly a neccessity for the difficult bosses and had to skip Feral Lunge)

    And you kinda wanted all people having an immunity on the final boss (until they fixed this) oh well, never happened before, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alphatorg View Post
    I don't think anyone believes that Blizzard did not release an unfinished expansion.
    And i think Blizzards reaction time to imbalance would improve over the years, but it gets worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alphatorg View Post
    The only way to change this is by straight up forcing raids into using them, either by making them overpowered for several raids or by giving them mandatory utility. But why would Blizzard do that?
    How about giving those specs actually some strengths that are useful (Not something like sustained AoE)?
    Or even better, realize that if you remove an aspect from a non overpowered spec (like Lightning bolt on the move) you have to give a spec a compensation to stay competitive?

    Ion hit dead center when he said that both Ele and Enhance have no strengths to speak off, the question is when he will finally tell his class team to implement those?

  8. #88
    The Lightbringer docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alphatorg View Post
    Hunters are one of the most played classes, even among top guilds.
    Rets have their blessings - while they aren't mandatory the class is good enough to earn itself raid spot unless you're raiding in a top guild or are worse than your competition.
    Druids (moonkin) have innervate and most guilds have at least one of them as a mandatory dps slot?
    You have no idea what you're talking about?
    You didn't read.

    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    Thanks to blizzard balance, some classes are left out because they forgot to give them utility. They're only invited if they have exceptional damage in that current tier.
    Hunters fall into that bucket, as well as BM being so insanely mobile that they're never impeded by mechanics. Ret falls into the bucket of their utility not being impactful enough. No point in using the context of anything except top guilds, since those are the only groups that should care about their comp down to each dps spot. Agree on balance druid, but feral should get innervate too.

  9. #89
    Do people really believe in this fairy tell where all 36 specs could ever be unique but equally important and guilds line up to bring 1 of everything?

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Planetdune View Post
    This seemed to be the stance of Blizzard a while back. Why do I find myself searching for a second priest and DK for Heroic Zul? Why is it so much easier with 2 warlocks and solo runners on G'huun?

    Now I am sure these fights are possible with a less ideal setup but not having the two priests on Zul just makes it so much harder that, at least for us, it seems you NEED to have them. Thing is we unfortunately only have 1 priest on progression raids and need to be lucky and get a pug every week. This all seems against the "bring the player, not the class" mantra..

    This is Beyond dead... why bother bring it up in first place? Time changes my friend..

  11. #91
    "Bring the player not the class" was their mantra during WotLK/Cata/MoP, and it was NOT about utility, but pure output performance.

    It simply meant that they wanted every single spec to be viable, even if something else was FotM and optimal. This was a stark contrast to Classic and TBC, were certain specs were expected to do lower dmg than the "real Dps classes", because they brought more utilty. For example during WotLK Ele and Shadow were notorious for having extremely shitty scaling, doing almost the same dmg in ToGC that they were doing in Naxx. This was counter to their new vision, and both specs recieved buffs/fixes around mid ToGC to compensate.

    Going into Cata, every single class got 200% Critdmg baseline (something mostly pure Dps classes had in WotLK), and all DoTs now scaled with Haste.

    They never tried to get rid of class stacking for specific spells/utility (considering that WotLK/Cata/MoP all were filled with bosses that required specific class setups), the goal was always to make even the "bad specs" viable for raiding.
    Last edited by ThrashMetalFtw; 2018-11-10 at 11:56 PM.
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  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by sathus View Post
    there are scrolls for Int/AP/Stam on scrolls. We are progressing GHuun mythic now and we did not have a DH entire tier, so I don't see how mandatory that is..
    Did you, at any point of progress, used Vantus runes? If you did, that's pretty much the same boost that a Demon Hunter would give you. Sure, it's not strictly mandatory and you can still kill bosses without it, but that extra bit of dps adds up over the course of the entire tier.

    We were missing DH for couple kills as well, including progress ones and while the bosses did die, it was clear that things would be so much easier if we had that extra damage. I don't understand why they didn't add a weakened version of the debuff on some item. Sure, it's harder to make consumables that debuff a target, especially with bosses doing various things like dissapearing, becoming immune, having adds and so on - but then again, that's even more reason to spread such important things around.

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