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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromind View Post
    Think about it, Forsaken occupy a pretty unique position. They are (were) Lawful Evil, authoritarian, military state that follows orders and gets shit done for the Horde in Eastern Kingdoms. They don't fill their head with war traditions or orcish honor.
    Err? No? There's tons of chaotic undead who kill for the thrill of it, mad scientist types, anti-life hateful wretch types, self and other undead-loathing type. On the other side of spectrum there are secluded scientists, tons of different kind of people who long for previous life, want-to-find-cure types, dark knight types and many undead who moved to neutral organization with wide spectrum of beliefs.

    Also stories show that whlie many undead respect Sylvans, far from all of them are "My life for Ner'z Aiu Waifu!" types. Some just feel gratitude for freeing from LK, some think she's best at protecting them as species, some feel bound to her by honor, because she's commander, some don't care at all. Once she starts to abuse and betray those expectations - she won't be a rightful leader in their eyes anymore.

    We already had big splinter faction of undead IN-GAME that gone rogue when their plans no longer aligned with Sylvanas, so saying that Forsaken is somehow bound exclusively to Sylvans is simply putting your own headcanon ahead of real lore.
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  2. #22
    The Patient Ragu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Wonder what that would imply for WoW (or at least Horde) fans...
    Probably a new mobile game announcement.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by rowaasr13 View Post
    It seems they cater to people who want to play "noble savage", instead of "genocidal shitstain". You know, the majority.
    But they are not. They are catering to the Alliance's ugly buddy.

  4. #24
    Titan Aeula's Avatar
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    I'm part of the 'I'm siding with Sylvanas because I hate her less than I hate Saurfang and I don't want to be ruled by an Alliance puppet' subfaction. I think many others are too.

    I don't think Blizzard gets this, they seem to think it's 'Blind Sylvanas Fans' vs 'Honor at all cost' folks.

    Overall I'm expecting disappointment and no doubt I'll be even more disappointed then I'm expecting.
    Blood Elves are basically High Elves. Slightly different eye color and backstory, but if you want to be a light skinned elf, that is basically a Blood Elf. Giving that to the Alliance would blur the line between factions.-Ion Hazzikostas: Game Director for World of Warcraft
    Quote Originally Posted by Lionknight View Post
    some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    They day they replace Sylvanas with Calia is when they wreck the Forsaken.

    This whole mess has been another love letter to the Alliance, while they might complain the story isn't satisfactory, which they always do cause I've never seen the Alliance fanbase content with any story they were given, in the end they get something they have been asking for, namely the removal of a Horde character. If Blizzard believes that removing Sylvanas from the Horde story and having her replaced with some moronic twist like Calia to represent the Forsaken will be welcome by Forsaken then I believe they are making a mistake. Time will tell.

    Personally, given the mess that has been the story so far, I'd rather not have any further interaction between the factions because it always ends up poorly for the Horde and yet, somehow the Alliance are the ones complaining. So, no, I don't want Calia and I don't want any other characters that have a horse in both factions so to speak.
    Nah, I'm sure the male undead rogue will still be the prime choice for 12 yo boys willing to troll people in wpvp, so fat chance of that happening.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    But they are not. They are catering to the Alliance's ugly buddy.
    Check out votes under youtube videos or when crowd cheers on BlizzCon instead of your favorite echo chamber.
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  7. #27
    Herald of the Titans Balager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sastank View Post
    Blizzard told Diablo fans to temper expectations and they didn't listen. I'm sure the same will happen with WoW
    Oh we listened. They just didn't specify how much tempering was needed.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by rowaasr13 View Post
    Check out votes under youtube videos or when crowd cheers on BlizzCon instead of your favorite echo chamber.
    Funny, fan cheering never seems to count when the cheers are for Sylvanas...



    But then again some people cheered for Diablo Immortal...

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    I'm part of the 'I'm siding with Sylvanas because I hate her less than I hate Saurfang and I don't want to be ruled by an Alliance puppet' subfaction. I think many others are too.

    I don't think Blizzard gets this, they seem to think it's 'Blind Sylvanas Fans' vs 'Honor at all cost' folks.

    Overall I'm expecting disappointment and no doubt I'll be even more disappointed then I'm expecting.
    Everyone loves Human Potential. Even the Orcs. Only the pretty and noble humans can save the Horde from the evil warchief. Because that's what Horde players want. And that's what Anduin needs. Not personality, not character. He needs to bring down a Banshee who was commanding forces when his father was too young to wield a sword.

  10. #30
    So many good quotes since I went to bed, but I want to start with this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    I'm part of the 'I'm siding with Sylvanas because I hate her less than I hate Saurfang and I don't want to be ruled by an Alliance puppet' subfaction. I think many others are too.
    I'm not going to tell you "speak only for yourself," because I extrapolate based on part projection, part "ear to the ground" observation all the time, but I will say that I don't think Blizzard is going to use a brush as fine as what your perspective seems to take away from what they are presenting.

    I've seen a few people on fansites call Saurfang a traitor, take stance similar to yours, and so I know you're not alone, but... while you are all entitled to that opinion, I don't think it's what's meant to come out of this story. That's too highbrow for this medium, IMO. For all of the overthinking that happens over wow lore (guilty as charged here) I think this tangent might be going too far. Look at the transition that happened between Sylvanas' warbringer video and old soldier. The wave I caught was "WHOA hang on I didn't sign up for this" to "oh thank the gods for saurfang!" And we're still supposed to be on team saurfang. It's pretty plain to me, if I look at it from the perspective of telling an up front story.

    I can't close this post without pointing out this bit though:

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromind View Post
    Worse.
    The day they force us to kill or replace Sylvanas as Forsaken leader will be the day they wreck Forsaken. Calia is just an extreme example of this. They make Calia Forsaken leader and i will geniunly will never care again about WOW Lore.

    The Forsaken's strenght is in unity and loyalty to their Faction. From lowest position forsaken to Leader they all work together towards common goal. And she's their leader not because she was born or usurped that title, but rather fought on the battlefield and established their whole faction and that gives her incredible amount of trust from Forsaken.

    People make me laugh when they say that Nathanos, Voss or even Arcanus can replace her. They can't. Nobody can. The whole faction is comprised of faceless militaristic goons because Sylvanas is their face. This gives writers space to explore Forsaken as a faction rather than meaningfuly developing characters, in my opinion it's not a bad thing.
    Think about it, Forsaken occupy a pretty unique position. They are (were) Lawful Evil, authoritarian, military state that follows orders and gets shit done for the Horde in Eastern Kingdoms. They don't fill their head with war traditions or orcish honor. One Executor is just as good as another one as long as the job gets done.
    In my opinion, whole Cataclysm forsaken zones rewamp translated that pretty awesomely.

    And i'm afraid as the story goes, she's well on her way out. There is just no way they can pull out of this mess without making even more dumb writing decisions.
    This was a wonderful take on the forsaken, and I commend this post! It also underscores the one major challenge that the forsaken present: IF (and please realize I'm saying IF in caps) IF the BFA story is headed for any degree of faction wall softening for either "game is aging" or "bring friends together policy" reasons, the forsaken under Sylvanas are the singular puzzle piece that's rigged, booby trapped and poisoned. They are a shitstorm wrapped in a headache covered in barbed wire when anyone talks unity because they have mostly been portrayed as the monstrous minions of an actual monster. This is why they will and they must get the bulk of the storytelling attention IF that is the goal here, to justify shared dungeon queues and grouping options or something.

    I don't know if they can solve this in a way to appease everyone. Actually, no, I know they can't, but ever since Before the Storm I've thought that the angle they will take is re-casting them as patriots of Lordaeron. I'm not saying I'm right, but again IF I'm Blizzard and IF my goal is "by 9.0 we only tell PVE stories and court intrigue with a peace treaty that won't actually break because mechanics," I agree with your assessment, and I don't know how they get past the roadblock that the forsaken uniquely present.

    Recent story has worked to softened Genn, redeem Jaina, and Villainize Sylvanas. The Pillars of the faction war's perpetuity are crumbling, but the forsaken are still a big, big obstacle.
    Last edited by Omedon; 2018-11-10 at 05:10 PM.

  11. #31
    Titan Aeula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omedon View Post
    So many good quotes since I went to bed, but I want to start with this one.



    I'm not going to tell you "speak only for yourself," because I extrapolate based on part projection, part "ear to the ground" observation all the time, but I will say that I don't think Blizzard is going to use a brush as fine as what your perspective seems to take away from what they are presenting.

    I've seen a few people on fansites call Saurfang a traitor, take stance similar to yours, and so I know you're not alone, but... while you are all entitled to that opinion, I don't think it's what's meant to come out of this story. That's too highbrow for this medium, IMO. For all of the overthinking that happens over wow lore (guilty as charged here) I think this tangent might be going too far. Look at the transition that happened between Sylvanas' warbringer video and old soldier. The wave I caught was "WHOA hang on I didn't sign up for this" to "oh thank the gods for saurfang!" And we're still supposed to be on team saurfang. It's pretty plain to me, if I look at it from the perspective of telling an up front story.
    Oh I'm aware. I think they only decided to give us a choice in 8.1 because they were shocked we weren't all on team Saurfang. Now they're spinning it as if it was their plan all along when it obviously wasn't.
    Blood Elves are basically High Elves. Slightly different eye color and backstory, but if you want to be a light skinned elf, that is basically a Blood Elf. Giving that to the Alliance would blur the line between factions.-Ion Hazzikostas: Game Director for World of Warcraft
    Quote Originally Posted by Lionknight View Post
    some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.

  12. #32
    The Patient Kemsa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    Funny, fan cheering never seems to count when the cheers are for Sylvanas...



    But then again some people cheered for Diablo Immortal...
    men if they only started as the Alliance attacking Lordaeron first and then the Burning of Telldrasill as the retaliation of the Horde, i think maybe we will have sought a better Faction War....

  13. #33
    You guys are aware that the same people write both sides and getting mad at each other is retarded right?


    ..okay just checking.

  14. #34
    I'm in the group that don't like Sylvanas but don't want another shitty rebellion storyline just 3 expansions after the last one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    I'm part of the 'I'm siding with Sylvanas because I hate her less than I hate Saurfang and I don't want to be ruled by an Alliance puppet' subfaction. I think many others are too.

    I don't think Blizzard gets this, they seem to think it's 'Blind Sylvanas Fans' vs 'Honor at all cost' folks.

    Overall I'm expecting disappointment and no doubt I'll be even more disappointed then I'm expecting.
    Also pretty much this.
    Last edited by Sangris; 2018-11-10 at 05:37 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    blizzard could add dolphins as an allied race and im pretty sure someone somewhere would find a way to say it hints at high elves
    Quote Originally Posted by Nnyco View Post
    when i learned anythin from mmo-c then it is that shit is only bad when the horde does it

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Omedon View Post
    So with the horde storyline, I have a strong, STRONG feeling that Blizzard will absolutely divide the playerbase in one way or another and... like intentionally disappoint some of them, in an effort to almost... I don't know, condition the player sentiment, perhaps to combat toxicity. I'll explain.

    I see the Horde discussion over this entire expansion storyline as creating some notable sub-factions along the line of certain sentiments.

    1) Loyalty to the idea of the horde as interpreted by Saurfang. I believe this is the path most intended for players. We are Zekhan, basically. But it's not the only subfaction, of course.

    2) Loyalty to the office of Warchief. "I swore an oath, I must uphold, regardless of who the warchief is." This, I believe is the choice being given to players with Saurfang in 8.1, and honestly, both sides make sense when seen on this axis.

    3) Loyalty to Sylvanas because of belief in the spark of humanity we saw in "three sisters," or something to that effect. I think the story that ultimately gets told will allow this sentiment to be satisfied and have closure. If Sylvanas is no longer warchief or even forsaken leader down the road, I do believe she'll get a sendoff that makes her rearview image palatable to this subfaction, if not other segments of the playerbase.

    4) Loyalty to Sylvanas/The horde because "YAAAA BURN THE ELVES AND THEIR BABIES." This subfaction, this right here, I do not believe can or should come out of the BFA story or any story with satisfaction or validation, and I think Blizzard agrees 100%. In fact I think this subfaction is subtly (or perhaps not so subtly) being told by BFA "adapt or abandon, because... no."

    Subfaction 4 conjures discussions to the tune of "these people are sick," or "what is wrong with you?" I don't think that's entirely fair because I think an RPG has to provide a seperation of player and character. At the same time, decent people looking for escapism into subfaction 4 might want to read the writing on the wall and realize that the player will not, in this faction war storyline that indeed does deign to godmode our characters to a degree, be given the option to be that evil because that just isn't how this game works. Neither side will be cast as the villain because both sides have every right to expect a mostly heroic power fantasy out of a game like WoW. Ultimately, we all have to "win" or else why are we paying to play? If you're casting everyone to win, you can't cast a vilainous player to win, because then everyone else loses.

    Sylvanas alone, pointedly and canonically, owns the burning of Teldrassil because a) she is an NPC and b) it was an objectively villainous act. She's a villain in that story. The playerbase was intentionally removed from that moment because ultimately we have to be cast as heroes. Think of the potential storylines that validate subfaction 4. They're not heroic. That subfaction aren't heroes. They're villains. In canon, you will never be cast as a villain, you just won't.

    If you are part of subfaction 4, that's your right, I can't tell you how to RP your character, but honestly... look at how the story is being told. Prepare yourself for what's coming. It won't be kind to you, so maybe get on board with the options that will indeed be presented to you for the sake of your engagement and your enjoyment.

    Just my more-than-two-cents.
    How about #5, I just play the game and experience the story. I wont get all pissy one way or the other because I'm an adult and realize it is what it is, just a story being told.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Sastank View Post
    Blizzard told Diablo fans to temper expectations and they didn't listen. I'm sure the same will happen with WoW
    blizzard "told" diablo fans to temper their expectations after releasing an official hype video of "multiple diablo projects" that coincided with blizzcon/virtual ticket sales period and after the fans took that announcement and ran with it, they had a complete 180..

  17. #37
    Just remove forsaken from the Horde.

  18. #38
    I don't think Blizz has the resources allocated to WoW anymore to create a third or even a sub-faction. That's waaaay too much work for them. All they can do is put out 6-month sub only mounts and re-skins of old armor.

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