Titanforging is here to stay

[Raelbo]

Open ended progression isnt positive. Players like more if yhey can finiah and complete their characters.

This is an MMO. It is, by definition, open ended. You cannot, by definition, finish and complete your character.

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There is no joy in getting at TF gear. You get small rush of dopamine. Just like when you win couple of bucks from slot machine, smoking or eating candie. But after 5 minutes you no longer feel anything and you completly forget about that experience. Reaction in my guild when someone got TF gear was mostly wtf. And person what got item mostly admited how stupid this system is that he got such item doing LFR, etc.. People do not feel fulfilment from owning licky item. Thats not how humans work. Ofc only if you are not entilted kid what have no sense what true acomplishment is. In fact this system is actualy toxic and it teaches bad habits.

Honestly, from your description it sounds like the toxicity problem stems from your guild and the attitude you guys bring to the game, which then permeates into the features you experience. If a bunch of people all choose to be cynical and negative, it's hardly surprising that all believe that that is the only way to be.

In our guild it's always a nice thing when anyone in our raid gets a nice TF. Also, it's not just about the brief sense of elation when we get an upgrade, the steady sense of getting stronger and how that translates into helping our raid progression is also a big factor.

[Deleted]

This is an MMO. It is, by definition, open ended. You cannot, by definition, finish and complete your character.

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Honestly, from your description it sounds like the toxicity problem stems from your guild and the attitude you guys bring to the game, which then permeates into the features you experience. If a bunch of people all choose to be cynical and negative, it's hardly surprising that all believe that that is the only way to be.

In our guild it's always a nice thing when anyone in our raid gets a nice TF. Also, it's not just about the brief sense of elation when we get an upgrade, the steady sense of getting stronger and how that translates into helping our raid progression is also a big factor.

It isnt toxicity. If you are ok with something so toxic as getting rewards you dont deserve than this beatifully shows what kind of entilted community plays current game. I have an idea. If you really think current system is ok and brings positives into the game. Use this system on your future kids. Everytime when your kid will want something you will give it to them and sometimes when your kid will want candy it will titanforge and you will give them new iphone. And we will see which kids will grow into proper adults.

[Raelbo]

It isnt toxicity.

Finding inane reasons to complain about every little thing and then spreading that idea around a small echo chamber until everyone is pissed off and ranting on forums about it is the epitome of toxicity.

Sorry, but if your guild is complaining every time someone gets a WF/TF item, yes that is toxic. Deal with it.

If you are ok with something so toxic as getting rewards you dont deserve than this beatifully shows what kind of entilted community plays current game.

TF/WF =/= getting rewards you don't deserve. So stop trying to use a strawman and come up with an actual argument please.

(I already addressed this above)

"Gary Player many years ago, when asked about a recent string of "good luck" was quoted as saying "the harder I practice, the luckier I get". This idea that WF/TF is all about luck is silly. Luck may have some influence, particularly in the short term, but over a decent period of time (like, say, the duration of a raid tier) luck has very little to do with it anymore. The simple fact is that the players with the best gear (as measured by overall gear, not one single item) are those who put in the most work the most consistently."

I have an idea. If you really think current system is ok and brings positives into the game. Use this system on your future kids. Everytime when your kid will want something you will give it to them and sometimes when your kid will want candy it will titanforge and you will give them new iphone. And we will see which kids will grow into proper adults.

And when you're not content with just strawmanning, let's move on to false equivalences!

[Deleted]

Finding inane reasons to complain about every little thing and then spreading that idea around a small echo chamber until everyone is pissed off and ranting on forums about it is the epitome of toxicity.




TF/WF =/= getting rewards you don't deserve. So stop trying to use a strawman and come up with an actual argument please.

(I already addressed this above)

"Gary Player many years ago, when asked about a recent string of "good luck" was quoted as saying "the harder I practice, the luckier I get". This idea that WF/TF is all about luck is silly. Luck may have some influence, particularly in the short term, but over a decent period of time (like, say, the duration of a raid tier) luck has very little to do with it anymore. The simple fact is that the players with the best gear (as measured by overall gear, not one single item) are those who put in the most work the most consistently."



And when you're not content with just strawmanning, let's move on to false equivalences!

Yes TF is getting rewards you dont desereve. I go into LFR and get lucky 385 item. Thats item i do not deserve and should never own. Never. This is item what should drop only for top end raiders period.

[Raelbo]

Yes TF is getting rewards you dont desereve. I go into LFR and get lucky 385 item. Thats item i do not deserve and should never own. Never. This is item what should drop only for top end raiders period.

All you have done is made a baseless assertion. You haven't provided a single warrant or backing for your ludicrous claim.

And yes, it is ludicrous.

I can accept an argument that LFR raiders should not be getting the same level of rewards as Mythic raiders. The is warranted because Mythic is harder, and harder content should result in greater rewards.

The glaringly obvious hole in your argument (through which you could fit the entire planet of Azeroth) is that a miniscule chance of getting a 385 ilevel item from LFR is not even remotely the same as a high chance of getting multiple 385 items which themselves have a decent chance of Titanforging even higher from every Mythic boss.

The simple fact is that an LFR raider is not going to come close to having anywhere the same level of gear as a mythic raider which makes your assertion moot and the odd LFR raider here and there getting a big TF is not a legitimate issue to get upset about. Period. Ever. End of story.

[Flurryfang]

that feeling is not connected with TF only with the amount of time you regeared each toons .

each tier is a reset making each previous tier completly pointless.

each expansion is complete reset making anything you achieved pointless.

what you are starting to see is how patheticaly pointless is runing on the gearing hamsterwheel and regaring each tier.

TF is not the real problem here .

there problem is lack of real tangible reward for doin each activity in game - AP is faling utterly in this regard.

they should imidiately bring back both VP gear vendors and VP gear upgrades. then every action you do would have real effect . pointless effect in longer run but existing one

I have no problem with tier resetting or each expansion making previous content obsolete. I would if they did it every month, but they don't so i kinda have time settle into the gear progression.

The problem is that doing something hard, something that requires time investment and even preparation, might not actually give an upgrade while content that does not require the previous elements, might actually give me upgrades. Instead of getting the feeling of "ohh im sure next week is gonna give me rewards or if we just kill a new boss i might get some upgrades", when i get an upgrade outside of the raiding or mythic+ enviroment, i just feel like the reward and push to do the harder content get quite dimished.

But at the core, you are right. TF is not the core problem, but it is one, if not THE, reason why gearing is currently a bad experience for me. I loved the sensation of getting rewarded for pushing myself and my guildmates into harder content. Some of my favorite experiences in WoW have been doing a completly new raid tier and seeing people fight over the first drops of that instance, the rush for people to get the new powerful items that really moved people into coming each week. This works best when you have gear barriers between each difficulty/raids, since there is nearly a garanteed chance of upgrades when you kill new bosses on new difficulties. Nowadays, i really don't see this experience anymore. In Legion it came from TF and the scaling item lvl of gears as you killed more bosses on a diffculity and in BFA, while scaling is gone, TF is still creating the odd anti-climatic first boss kills on new difficulties, because people just have so many items, that are already on or close to the item lvl of the new difficulty.

AP is not supposed to be this reward, as it is just supposed to be a reward for playing, not for pushing yourself or taking down challenging content.

VP also have its own problems. If they do it like in the past with specific items being able to be bought with VP, some slots would just not make sense as raid drops. Having all slots being able to be filled with VP gear just makes it insanely quickly fill up your slots and gear rewards will quickly be removed as an incentive for raiding and people will stop doing the content. Finally, if there is full VP gear for each difficulty, you end up creating a massive collection of gear and vendors, that might just make the entire thing a big job and drain people out. VP does not fix things, it just a different attitude towards gear that has its own problems.

[Deleted]

All you have done is made a baseless assertion. You haven't provided a single warrant or backing for your ludicrous claim.

And yes, it is ludicrous.

I can accept an argument that LFR raiders should not be getting the same level of rewards as Mythic raiders. The is warranted because Mythic is harder, and harder content should result in greater rewards.

The glaringly obvious hole in your argument (through which you could fit the entire planet of Azeroth) is that a miniscule chance of getting a 385 ilevel item from LFR is not even remotely the same as a high chance of getting multiple 385 items which themselves have a decent chance of Titanforging even higher from every Mythic boss.

The simple fact is that an LFR raider is not going to come close to having anywhere the same level of gear as a mythic raider which makes your assertion moot and the odd LFR raider here and there getting a big TF is not a legitimate issue to get upset about. Period. Ever. End of story.

It doesnt matter if it isnt same. You should not getting this type of rewards period. Nowhere near close? I havent done nothing above LFR and Mythic 0 yet i am 372imtelvl. 385 - 372 = 13 itemlvl. 13 itemlvl difference between LFR hero and mythic raider isnt enough. I dont deserve to wear 70% of my gear. No you are totaly wrong. But keep telling yourself how it is totaly fine system and enyoj your empty game as players quiting in giant numbers.

[rrayy]

Open ended progression isnt positive. Players like more if yhey can finiah and complete their characters.

You think it isn't postive. Other players think it is positive, like me. Stop speaking for all players because you don't.

[HuxNeva]

Open ended progression isnt positive. Players like more if yhey can finiah and complete their characters.

Some do, others don't.
Remember the endless wailing choirs of 'Why is there is nothing left to do in this game Blizz?'.

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Yes TF is getting rewards you dont desereve. I go into LFR and get lucky 385 item. Thats item i do not deserve and should never own. Never. This is item what should drop only for top end raiders period.

Player played the game, it was on the loottable, he didn't cheat.
Btw, he gets the 'Raidfinder Titanforged' version he 'deserved', not the 'Mythic' version he did not 'deserve'.

[Raelbo]

It doesnt matter if it isnt same. You should not getting this type of rewards period.

Oh right, because you say so. I guess I am proven wrong then

Nowhere near close? I havent done nothing above LFR and Mythic 0 yet i am 372imtelvl

I honestly find that hard to believe. So here's the deal. Link me your armory page. It will give us a factual basis to work from. And if it turns out you are indeed that well geared just from LFR and Mythic 0 then I will concede the point. If you aren't prepared to link your armory though I'll just have to assume that you were lying in order to try and win an argument on the internet.

[HuxNeva]

in BFA, while scaling is gone, TF is still creating the odd anti-climatic first boss kills on new difficulties, because people just have so many items, that are already on or close to the item lvl of the new difficulty.

Our guild must be extremely unlucky then. We spend 6 weeks to progress through HC, we have recleared every week since, and we started Mythic 3 weeks ago (We're an HC guild, so M is not our focus but we like to dabble in it a bit), and are now working on Vectis. Most of the raid team does a M+10 each week (we organize a special M+ night each week to get a key done for anyone that wants). In those last 3 weeks in M, I don't think there has been a single drop on M that could be traded or wasn't an upgrade. Looking through our guild's and another guild's loot history, I can see that indeed WF is rare, and TF extremely rare.

In Legion it happened more because of the traits on Tier set bonuses that got worse from tier to tier for many specs, some powerfull trinkets and the power of secondary stats all made it so those good old pieces, especially rings, held their value longer even when they often had lower ilvl than the new drops.

[Deleted]

Biggest problem with TF is that it usually procs on wrong items.

[HuxNeva]

I honestly find that hard to believe. So here's the deal. Link me your armory page. It will give us a factual basis to work from. And if it turns out you are indeed that well geared just from LFR and Mythic 0 then I will concede the point. If you aren't prepared to link your armory though I'll just have to assume that you were lying in order to try and win an argument on the internet.

He has been called out on this before and his armory linked.
He was show to be a liar then.

[Flurryfang]

Our guild must be extremely unlucky then. We spend 6 weeks to progress through HC, we have recleared every week since, and we started Mythic 3 weeks ago (We're an HC guild, so M is not our focus but we like to dabble in it a bit), and are now working on Vectis. Most of the raid team does a M+10 each week (we organize a special M+ night each week to get a key done for anyone that wants). In those last 3 weeks in M, I don't think there has been a single drop on M that could be traded or wasn't an upgrade. Looking through our guild's and another guild's loot history, I can see that indeed WF is rare, and TF extremely rare.

In Legion it happened more because of the traits on Tier set bonuses that got worse from tier to tier for many specs, some powerfull trinkets and the power of secondary stats all made it so those good old pieces, especially rings, held their value longer even when they often had lower ilvl than the new drops.

It is also a rare thing and thank god for that. I am not saying that WF/TF completly destroys the loot progression system, but it does make clear cracks in it and allows for these bad experiences to happend. The most annoying thing is that while i know many who have had really bad experiences with TF, i also know people who have no idea where the hate is coming from, since they have never met the negative i experience. That is the deal with features/mechanics, that deals in large RNG. You end up with 2 groups, one that see more negative than good and a group who just experience the good, and as such, none are wrong in their own experience. I just personally think that when i look at both groups, the negative highly outweighs the good. Blizzard implemented TF so that you would an encentive to do content with your friends, which might be something you overgear, but i have really not met anybody who is saying that TF is what makes them join such runs. People like to play with their friends no matter what and show off their amazing gear if they are overgeared. That small good it might add is just dwarfed with the experience of pointlessness when players try to push themselfs for new gear and instead find more rewards or close to in content, that they can just grind.

Edit: The gearing might not happend as fast when you just grind, but i believe people often set themselfs satisfied with the slow drip-feed they get from the TF roll in low tier content, since it requires so little of them in return compared to buying pots, learning new fights and tranning your class to beat harder bosses.

[Raelbo]

He has been called out on this before and his armory linked.
He was show to be a liar then.

I could only find one level 120 character named "Sinndor" who is ilevel 360 and has exactly one LFR warforged item. The rest of his gear seems to be a mix of WQ and Warfront stuff.

I mean my main is a heroic raider ilevel 368. From 22 LFR kills I have exactly 0 items that Titanforged enough to be equipped. I have one ilevel 355 TF ring from a mythic 0 dungeon, and honestly, that is only because I've had rubbish luck from normal and heroic Uldir. So his argument that it isn't "earned" is just plain BS. I deserve a better ring, but at least the 355 TF mitigates my circumstance.

And my best TF item is a 375 Cloak from Normal Uldir which is only slightly better than the 3 identical cloaks that I got from heroic. So again, as far as I am concerned, all my gear is earned.

[rrayy]

It isnt toxicity. If you are ok with something so toxic as getting rewards you dont deserve than this beatifully shows what kind of entilted community plays current game. I have an idea. If you really think current system is ok and brings positives into the game. Use this system on your future kids. Everytime when your kid will want something you will give it to them and sometimes when your kid will want candy it will titanforge and you will give them new iphone. And we will see which kids will grow into proper adults.

You are not the arbiter of who deserves what. ANd this post shows that now you are just trolling because of your irrational strawman. Seems the only thing that is toxic right now is you.

[Bhorin]

Oh really? And what kind of possitive impact this system have? Endlesa progression? Nobady is doing that becouse chance of getting bis so small that people do not bother with it. Excitment when getting loot? No there isnt any and important is fullfilment which also isnt present becouse you didnt earn that gear. You were just lucky.

It actually have a positive impact for lesser guilds who get stuck on bosses and need a bit of ilvl to overcome it. e.g. the guild that still hasn't cleared heroic but is clearing many bosses in there each week and trying to clear the rest.

Just because you (as a person who doesn't even do anything beyond 1 round of LFR--though you've several bosses multiple times, so that's another lie) cannot see how it helps other people (e.g. you only care about yourself) doesn't mean it doesn't help others.

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Oh right, because you say so. I guess I am proven wrong then



I honestly find that hard to believe. So here's the deal. Link me your armory page. It will give us a factual basis to work from. And if it turns out you are indeed that well geared just from LFR and Mythic 0 then I will concede the point. If you aren't prepared to link your armory though I'll just have to assume that you were lying in order to try and win an argument on the internet.

He always lies about his gearing, but here's his raider io.. he's 360 (despite claiming 372 at times). He has a single warforged item (+5 WF WQ boss gloves) and he also claimed to have several TF/WFs in other posts. Probably better to dismiss him rather than engage.

[arkanon]

It actually have a positive impact for lesser guilds who get stuck on bosses and need a bit of ilvl to overcome it. e.g. the guild that still hasn't cleared heroic but is clearing many bosses in there each week and trying to clear the rest.

Just because you (as a person who doesn't even do anything beyond 1 round of LFR--though you've several bosses multiple times, so that's another lie) cannot see how it helps other people (e.g. you only care about yourself) doesn't mean it doesn't help others.

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He always lies about his gearing, but here's his raider io.. he's 360 (despite claiming 372 at times). He has a single warforged item (+5 WF WQ boss gloves) and he also claimed to have several TF/WFs in other posts. Probably better to dismiss him rather than engage.

The argument ranges from "it has little to no effect on gameplay" all the way to "it is allowing guilds to kill bosses they were previously stuck on" holy shit thats a big gap. Which is it people, is it a tiny little boost or is it enough to help kill a boss?

Do i need to mention there is already a system in the game to do what you describe there? a stacking buff that increases weekly......

[Osmeric]

One of the consequences of war/titanforging is that it encourages carrying and catch-up gearing. More highly geared players have an incentive to do content that's a bit below them, on the chance of high -forges. And the gear they don't need, which is most of it, can be transfered to the undergeared players who they are carrying.

Blizzard almost certainly intended this to be a catch-up gearing mechanism. And it works very well.

[adamzz]

I was agree with you, and I still agree with you on a first part of your post. But then you said the same thing that pseudo-elitist dipshits say who are ~18 years old an average, with less than 100 IQ, that r.io determines player skill, which can't be further from the truth. ( logs - yes, they determine player skill pretty much precisely, if you take a good look at those logs in depths, not just an average score )
What if i told you that i was already @ about 365-368 ilvl while having literally 150 r.io score, how would you describe that? What if i told you that i leveled my character abit late and jumped right into HC uldir with full blues at 330 ilvl and almost every single drop was mine because noone wanted those items anymore.
How is hard to understand that most people, especially people that's been here for a decade or more, usually don't give a fuck about these little irrelevant scores. The only reason i did some +9 key grinding was to be able to get into +10 group once per week and be done with it.
GS was more legit than r.io while we're at

Yesterday i invited a ~1500 score dh tank for my KR+11 key and he left in mid dungeon, because he was face-taking necrotic above 40-50 stacks and kept blaming the healer for not being able to do his job properly.

Get your shit straight

I didn't say r.io determines your skill. Maybe you should learn to read.

Today when we have stuff like wlogs and Rio we can determine a players skill with a much higher degree of accuracy

As you can CLEARLY see, I said that r.io is a tool that helps you determine a players skill, it doesn't tell you a players skill. Ilvl is also a tool to help you determine a players skill, but it's a lot less effective since getting gear isn't hard. Having +12 to +15 on all dungeons is a big indicator that you know what to do, but you could still have been carried so it's not a fool proof indicator. A lot better metric than ilvl, but not as good as logs. However, r.io AND logs together gives you very very good indication of skill. Sadly, most players don't log m+ runs so you need to rely on raid logs, a player that's good at raids isn't necessarily good at m+. So while using both these tools together you can pretty accurately gauge someones skill, it doesn't work 100% of the time.

Yes, you got carried in HC Uldir and had relatively high ilvl but a low score, that's exactly the reason you shouldn't look at ilvl.. Gearscore more legit than r.io? Dude, do you even know what gearscore was? It was ilvl but worse... People equipped higher ilvl agi gear as int users just to increase their gearscore, iirc that got fixed after a while but it was still a problem early on. Gearscore also don't do much else than look at the ilvl of the gear.. It did look at the secondary stats and better secondaries meant better score, but considering it didn't sim ppl on the spot the addon couldn't really gauge the effective stat weight of the stats so in some cases it's even worse than simply looking at ilvl... Someone at haste cap could have lower gearscore because he equips an item without haste but same ilvl.

You are using r.io completely wrong if all you do is look at the score. When you use r.io you look at the players profile, scroll down to the dungeon you are doing and look at how many times he has done it on time (or close to time) on the level you are looking for. You also check to see which affixes he has done the dungeon on. A player with 1.5k score that did the dungeon on the easiest week (that was like 3 weeks ago) is not as good as a player with 1.3k score that has done the dungeon on the current week. Not r.ios fault that you don't know how to use it.. You even say that you need to look at wlogs in depth to better determine someones skill.. Well, the same is true for r.io.. Of course that DH tank was bad, you didn't screen him properly. You saw a high score and jizzed in your pants while instant inviting him, well that's how you make bad groups.

You know when someone is a bad player when they bring up how long they have played the game, like that matters. Oh, you have played the game for a decade? What do you have to show for it? Nothing? Hmm ok. I have played since release, that doesn't automatically make me a better player than someone that started in Legion. There are plenty of players that started in vanilla but still can't avoid fire or even play their spec properly. I have seen plenty of players with the 2008 Spirit of Competition that die to the first shit that spawns on them, or do like 50% of the DPS they should do with their gear. That's a player that has played at least 10 years (which is a decade btw, probably need to clarify that since you can't read) but still don't know how to play.