Titanforging is here to stay

[Raelbo]

The reward needs to match the effort, not massively exceed it. That is the core of exactly what i am saying.

The rewards do match the effort. The fact that you fail to see this is why your argument is fundamentally flawed

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Thats not how it feels. it is more like i spend 1000 dollars to win 100 dollars but if i was lucky i could won 1 000 000. Thats how it works you completly ignore fact you also putting time into the game which has its own value.

Man I was waiting the entire weekend for you to link your toon with that extraordinary luck who got 372 ilevel from WF/TF procs from LFR and M0. Do I take this to mean you were lying?

[Alkizon]

Thats not how it feels. it is more like i spend 1000 dollars to win 100 dollars but if i was lucky i could won 1 000 000. Thats how it works you completly ignore fact you also putting time into the game which has its own value.

Strictly speaking both your/his analogies aren't true.

OK, lets talk about some more true analogy:
It'll be presence of easy, fast and sufficiently cheap opportunity to produce counterfeit money inside the country. Someone was caught (not lucky on RNG) - jailed and delete money, but someone didn't (lucky on RNG) - money remained in daily use. What follows from this? It follows that serious non-payment of taxes (no one pays money from "false" earnings, country doesn't receive real money, sometimes "warring parties" were engaged in such way of destabilizing economy, country becomes insolvent on international scale) and increasing inflation (money depreciation). And now think about those people who honestly earn this money, those who really affect GDP - in what condition they will be, what motivation they will have for diligence, faith in state values, other people and government (which (in our case) ironically are main source/generator of this problem) in general. Uncontrollable, irreparable and ever-increasing trends within society will begin. Therefore, volume itself isn't important, even presence is already important and bad.

Don't you think that normal honest people will try forsake this mess by all available means?
And how will this affect average composition decency of remaining population?
...it's social behavior norms and psychological climate in society as a whole?
I don't claim that this is only single and main factor, but one of stones on neck that pulling body on bottom direction.

So...
1) If devs take into account t(w)f, then ilvl overgrowth, and therefore attributes, and therefore gap between players forces.
2) If they don't, then part of content overlaps each other (in progression), and therefore cuts carrot size, and therefore needs/desire to perform more complex/expensive for progress/design content with this, and therefore generally the point of creating/participation/significance/need of such content.

I wanted to draw you picture showing how strongly it overlaps (= replaces each other) part of content in terms of progress for different cases, and how cancer tumor (ilvl) incredibly swells, but this is probably unnecessary and you have sufficiently developed spatial thinking yourself for at least noticing trend. This doesn't increase carrot size and its life expectancy, but only reduces its price for purchase by the state, but it also depreciates it to all other citizens, so it ceases to be a valuable item and since there are no "carrots", then there is no control/motivating(except drug addicts) mechanism... with all ensuing chaos.

If you'll sit down now and think well, you will understand that current game design trends (adding multilayering difficulty, RNG, "attribute-less" AA+, x-forge, all forms of scaling and other disgrace) are just attempts to solve this problem, but they are wrong and cheap&profitable only in short run (are bandages, not real treatment), but in long run destroying game integrity in general. And this is without even going into particular details of projected consequences.

Again: <1>, <2>, <3> + current - it's all from this thread.

... Gigantic volume of problems generated in different areas (from psychological to design), and the only real benefit is in developers monetary gains

What more do you need/want to hear?

ps. We've touch all this stuff already million times in various threads. I don't even know, what can be added more to everything, that has already been said...
It doesn't matter if it lower/higher, it only matters that it exists and how it fits into game design. The rest is just empty words.

because there is their priority (significance). It makes no sense to pay attention to the state of secondary factors when main ones are in conflict. It's simple and logical

ps. Raelbo swore that added me to ignore, so won't see this message. That's funny, because he's wrong as always and can't/don't want to understand it himself

I was putting you on ignore.

*looks incredulously* strange function (of course if you're not lying), it's not clear then of its purpose in principle (how this different from not ignored)... Personally? No, of course not, just as fact that you couldn't find any arguments (ironically that you're blaming your opponents now for same reason, but it's again just you), and therefore you were annoyed and angry; and if so, then you won't going to argue now. It doesn't offend me or flatter (I'd even prefer to be ignored without fear of upsetting you again). I still continue to believe that I'm right, nothing has changed. And by the way, if you didn't noticed you're still wrong here too

(as for links, nothing has changed too, it's just as always: they aren't mandatory, but only for those who're interested in more details or examples/jokes, suppose you don't like stuff like Wiki too, because it's s-o-o-o full of such "unneeded" links)

ps. I forgot that it notifies after every editing if there is profile link (although, considering ignore, then it shouldn't work, but in principle), I'll cut it away for better (oh s*t, it's auto-tag for address symbol didn't know that, it's going to be a lot of notifications, sorry).

[arkanon]

The rewards do match the effort. The fact that you fail to see this is why your argument is fundamentally flawed

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Simple one for you - how does afking through an entire warfront deserve a 370 ilvl (heoric raid). How does tagging a world boss once deserve a 385+ ilvl (mythic raid) How does killing a 5man heroic boss earn you a 390 ilvl item?

If you can explain to me how those efforts match those rewards, without going off track and talking percentages and chances, i will completely roll over on this. I am happy to wait, but just remember, i have asked a very simple question:

in the examples i gave, does the effort match the reward?

I look forward to the mental triple backflip.

[Raelbo]

Simple one for you - how does afking through an entire warfront deserve a 370 ilvl (heoric raid).

How does tagging a world boss once deserve a 385+ ilvl (mythic raid) How does killing a 5man heroic boss earn you a 390 ilvl item?

If you can explain to me how those efforts match those rewards, without going off track and talking percentages and chances, i will completely roll over on this. I am happy to wait, but just remember, i have asked a very simple question:

Except you're asking the completely the wrong question. Sure, you can ask your question, but it has pretty much zero relevance and trying to answer it in the way you want me to answer it won't actually give any meaningful answer. It's a ridiculous question designed purely to distract from the actual issues. When someone like you has to start resorting strawman tactics to try and win the argument, it just tells me that you lack a real argument.

Your examples are disingenuous because they aren't representative of the actual game. (for example: the simple fact of the matter is that warfronts are not full of afkers getting titanforges on every drop).

Your argument is flawed on two fronts:

1) Giving examples of how players can potentially game the system has bugger all to do with TF. If a player afks through a warfront or world boss, the reward isn't deserved, period. Take away TF and that would still be the case. And you know what, if that's how some players want to roll, that's their problem. I can't really imagine a more pointless game experience.

2) You're hyperbolising the chances of getting TF. It's funny that you wanted to hand-wave away any argument that I might make about percentages and chances because, let's be honest here, you know that it's a valid counter to your argument.

As I keep on saying throughout this thread, a player getting a single lucky TF is an utterly useless measure of reward. That is why an extremely lucky drop isn't a problem even if it isn't "deserved". Because by itself, such a drop is pretty meaningless.

TF can help you get a good piece of gear through luck. But it's perseverence and effort that get you good gear. The amount of effort it would take to match the gear rewards from mythic raiding by simply focussing on say, heroic 5 man dungeons is, frankly, insane. I doubt that even someone who had been spamming 5 mans for 16 hours a day since the release of the expansion would have gear that equaled that of a mythic raider. But let's just say, for the sake of argument, that they did. You cannot pretend that for that amount of sheer effort that the reward wasn't matched to effort.

[Nyel]

Of course it will stay, it's good for the longevity of the game.

It def isn't as it's driving players away instead of keeping them chasing the treadmill.

[Raelbo]

ps. @Raelbo swore that added me to ignore, so won't see this message.

The funny thing I didn't know about the ignore function is that I can still see when you post, it's just the content that is hidden. As the only person on my ignore list I was curious to see if you were still guilty of engaging in that which earned you such a remarkable achievement. And you didn't fail to disappoint.

The reason you're on my ignore list is that you have the most appallingly obnoxious style of posting I have ever had the displeasure of having to try and read.

• Your constant use of linking stuff without any context, most of which is of questionable relevance
• Your insistence of holding a conversation by means of continuously editing your original post instead of replying
• The stuff you write is actually pretty much incomprehensible gibberish

I am happy to debate anyone on any topic and I would never ignore or disrespect someone for disagreeing with me. Hell, I actually like seeing how different people think about things, and one of the best things about any debate is when someone is able to put together such an elegant argument that I am compelled to agree.

But you have a special talent for sucking any semblance of enjoyment from the process because you turn it into a chore. It's not even that I necessarily even disagree with the points you are trying to make - it's that trying to understand you is just so much work. You even admitted that you do it purely to annoy people. And that is just puerile. If you want to come to a debating forum, then at least have the common decency to engage with people in a respectful manner. I would be most surprised if I am the only one who feels this way, most people just couldn't be bothered to make an issue of it.

PS: I find it hilarious how personally you have taken the fact that I told you I was putting you on ignore.

[arkanon]

Except you're asking the completely the wrong question. Sure, you can ask your question, but it has pretty much zero relevance and trying to answer it in the way you want me to answer it won't actually give any meaningful answer. It's a ridiculous question designed purely to distract from the actual issues. When someone like you has to start resorting strawman tactics to try and win the argument, it just tells me that you lack a real argument.

Your examples are disingenuous because they aren't representative of the actual game. (for example: the simple fact of the matter is that warfronts are not full of afkers getting titanforges on every drop).

Your argument is flawed on two fronts:

1) Giving examples of how players can potentially game the system has bugger all to do with TF. If a player afks through a warfront or world boss, the reward isn't deserved, period. Take away TF and that would still be the case. And you know what, if that's how some players want to roll, that's their problem. I can't really imagine a more pointless game experience.

2) You're hyperbolising the chances of getting TF. It's funny that you wanted to hand-wave away any argument that I might make about percentages and chances because, let's be honest here, you know that it's a valid counter to your argument.

As I keep on saying throughout this thread, a player getting a single lucky TF is an utterly useless measure of reward. That is why an extremely lucky drop isn't a problem even if it isn't "deserved". Because by itself, such a drop is pretty meaningless.

TF can help you get a good piece of gear through luck. But it's perseverence and effort that get you good gear. The amount of effort it would take to match the gear rewards from mythic raiding by simply focussing on say, heroic 5 man dungeons is, frankly, insane. I doubt that even someone who had been spamming 5 mans for 16 hours a day since the release of the expansion would have gear that equaled that of a mythic raider. But let's just say, for the sake of argument, that they did. You cannot pretend that for that amount of sheer effort that the reward wasn't matched to effort.

OMFG ladies and gentleman, that first sentence.....the greatest world salad and mental backflips of all time? i bet you had a headache after typing that.

How on earth does doing Warfronts, spamming heroics and m+0, and farming normal raids = "Perseverance and effort". This argument is so bad. Many of us are saying we dont like the system AT ALL, and dont want people, including ourselves, to be getting high ilvl loot we didnt earn, regardless of how common or uncommon it is. And the counter argument is always exactly the same "yeah but it hardly ever happens" Its the only argument the pro WF/TF crew have, and the shield they hide behind when logic gets in the way.

I asked you if that loot represented the effort, and you did exactly what i said you would, dodged the question, and came back with the ONLY reply any of you have "DERP DERP that hardly happens though bro like hardly ever HERP DERP"

[Bhorin]

OMFG ladies and gentleman, that first sentence.....the greatest world salad and mental backflips of all time? i bet you had a headache after typing that.

How on earth does doing Warfronts, spamming heroics and m+0, and farming normal raids = "Perseverance and effort". This argument is so bad. Many of us are saying we dont like the system AT ALL, and dont want people, including ourselves, to be getting high ilvl loot we didnt earn, regardless of how common or uncommon it is. And the counter argument is always exactly the same "yeah but it hardly ever happens" Its the only argument the pro WF/TF crew have, and the shield they hide behind when logic gets in the way.

I asked you if that loot represented the effort, and you did exactly what i said you would, dodged the question, and came back with the ONLY reply any of you have "DERP DERP that hardly happens though bro like hardly ever HERP DERP"

He was right on with his assessment of your argument. You presenting fringe cases of people gearing through AFK (which has nothing to do with TF) as a titan forging argument is a nonargument.

Generally speaking people do the "effort" to earn the base ilvl of the item (e.g. 370 for heroic raid / m10). Then if they limit themselves to that activity they need to put in significant effort to increase their ilvl past 370 because something like 80% of their items won't be upgrades (e.g. need to get 5 items to get 1 upgrade). I am sure blizzard has a formula that they are working with on their current TF/WF chances that means they expect players to get +X ilvl per week via WF/TF.. this is likely around 0.1-1 ilvl per week for someone 370 where 0.1 people are only doing Uldir heroic and 1.0 are doing Uldir Heroic, M+ and maybe a couple bosses in M Uldir. This is really obvious mathematically.

Realistically anyone "spamming" m+0, warfronts, normal raid and heroics won't even get past like 370 ilvl before the next tier comes out so I am not even sure why you care. Warfront = 1 370 per 3 weeks, Heroics = 325 base (9x titanforge for 370 or better = 1 in 30,000 chance => ~150,000 boss kills per 370 item), M+0/Warfront 340 base (6x titan forge for 370 = 1 in 1,100 => ~1,100 warfronts or 5,500 m+0 bosses), Normal Raid 355 (3x titan forge = 1 in 40.5 or 1 370 per 5 weeks of doing a full clear). Looking over this list I would say anyone managing to gear up via this method is doing a MASSIVE amount more work than people doing H Uldir.

Don't worry this is just word salad even though I provided the math and it shows you are completely and utterly wrong about the effort part.

[arkanon]

He was right on with his assessment of your argument. You presenting fringe cases of people gearing through AFK (which has nothing to do with TF) as a titan forging argument is a nonargument.

Generally speaking people do the "effort" to earn the base ilvl of the item (e.g. 370 for heroic raid / m10). Then if they limit themselves to that activity they need to put in significant effort to increase their ilvl past 370 because something like 80% of their items won't be upgrades (e.g. need to get 5 items to get 1 upgrade). I am sure blizzard has a formula that they are working with on their current TF/WF chances that means they expect players to get +X ilvl per week via WF/TF.. this is likely around 0.1-1 ilvl per week for someone 370 where 0.1 people are only doing Uldir heroic and 1.0 are doing Uldir Heroic, M+ and maybe a couple bosses in M Uldir. This is really obvious mathematically.

Realistically anyone "spamming" m+0, warfronts, normal raid and heroics won't even get past like 370 ilvl before the next tier comes out so I am not even sure why you care. Warfront = 1 370 per 3 weeks, Heroics = 325 base (9x titanforge for 370 or better = 1 in 30,000 chance => ~150,000 boss kills per 370 item), M+0/Warfront 340 base (6x titan forge for 370 = 1 in 1,100 => ~1,100 warfronts or 5,500 m+0 bosses), Normal Raid 355 (3x titan forge = 1 in 40.5 or 1 370 per 5 weeks of doing a full clear). Looking over this list I would say anyone managing to gear up via this method is doing a MASSIVE amount more work than people doing H Uldir.

Don't worry this is just word salad even though I provided the math and it shows you are completely and utterly wrong about the effort part.

Im glad we agree that someone can EASILY get to 370 ilvl without even doing NORMAL raid (355 REWARDS). What we disagree with is you seem to think that is fine, while myself and others recognize it as a serious issue. Doing content geared towards 315/320 ilvl and rewarding 340 ilvl should do exactly that. But the current system does not provide that experience. And the ONLY argument any of you have is "its doesnt happen that often and you cant prove it does". Honestly, it is the only defense anyone has.

if you think afking thru warfronts = a "massive amount of work" then you are part of the problem.

[Deleted]

if you think afking thru warfronts = a "massive amount of work" then you are part of the problem.

Can't you report people for being afk in warfronts, or vote kick them out?

[arkanon]

Can't you report people for being afk in warfronts, or vote kick them out?

You can votekick, yes. but when 40% are afking, no one votes. Also, the had to add in a system a few weeks in that auto kicked ppl who went afk, because SO MANY ppl were just going aft that teams could not finish them.

[Falynn1]

I feel like I need to comment on this... and keep in mind, I am not trying to convince anyone to agree with me.

WF/TF ... back in Legion, yes... it was a problem. I watched several people rank up in high ilvl gear without putting any sort of effort into progression or the game in general. it was disappointing to see how all my hours of "work" was by-passed with just luck on their part. People were wanting to join M+ runs based off of the gear and not their skill. Skill was always most important to my group and myself. We never picked someone based off of their ilvl.

The players were complaining about the RNG... but people seem to forget that this game has always been RNG... ever since the first day of Classic wow RNG/Luck has always been here. I started playing back in 2006 and yes, I would get very frustraited when those wolf teeth wouldn't drop from every wolf I killed... I mean, they should all have teeth..
adding the luck factor to gear was just another way to reward players in the long run. As I said, in Legion it happened way too often and it seemed unfair to those who actually played the game.

Now in BFA the WF/TF luck chance has dropped significantly to the point where it doesn't bother me in the slightest. In fact, I see it more of a nice surprise when it does happen rather than a let down. A player still has to play the game a decent amount to even get the chance to receive one. WF/TF will not out gear anyone who actually does progression, like it did in Legion. Warfronts are another story... but I enjoy my free 370, just like anyone does. Although I feel it's a little odd, I still don't see that gear ever out-doing a raider in the long run.

This is coming from someone who does not have any sort of luck in the game. I've been farming the old Pandaria mounts for years on several characters and still, nothing. I rarely ever get a WF/TF piece of gear and when I do, it's more often not the stats I use but... it doesn't bother me. Luck is random and few and not game breaking.

[Deleted]

You can votekick, yes. but when 40% are afking, no one votes. Also, the had to add in a system a few weeks in that auto kicked ppl who went afk, because SO MANY ppl were just going aft that teams could not finish them.

If it autokicks people who are afk, then people can't get the gear by afking.

[arkanon]

If it autokicks people who are afk, then people can't get the gear by afking.

Now who is being anal and pedantic. Most ppl are alt tabbing back and forth or watching a movie / show / youtube. Dont be silly.

Bloody funny stuff tho "they came back to their keyboard just before being kicked each time, and even attacked 3 mobs! they EARNED that heroic raid ilvl loot, ENDLESS 340 ilvl loot, and chances to proc even higher! good for them!"

[Alkizon]

OMFG

Man, relax. They're unequivocally hinting to you that this is solely their personal interest. Game design as a whole isn't important for them, all that is important is sovereign self-assertion, protection of their lifestyle, their faith, since it's already sick to them to live normally. Moreover, they even emphasize that they aren't going to use their unfair advantage gained, it's mostly for the process, so they aren't care if someone else will going to do otherwise. See it as if you were trying to tell criminal recidivists immorality of their actions (maybe they even understand that this is true, but because of current circumstances, theft has become a legal matter, therefore, it's not even necessary to "confess" about something illegal to them). The best thing you get in return: "no arrest - no guilt". At worst, everything will end in groundless sequence like - “You fool! No it's you! That's you are! No - you!”; in fact, the way it's happening now.

Really: "It's okay that people steal, because this happens not often and mostly from the state, which also like to steals from people itself and fact that system isn't working and normal people don't like it isn't a big deal. Everything suits me, I even like it and this is everything I need to know!" - is what they trying to tell you. And they will never see that not just "size/frequency", but even at least presence of this (legal "work/reward"s inconsistency) is violation of rules undermining system's basics from the inside.

Therefore, my friend, you're at war with windmills. You won't prove anything to them simply at least just because they aren't hearing you, because they didn't come here to get it, they didn't come here with any logic, it's not for getting truth, just for the process.

This is general forum, the result of discussion of which won't affect what will happening. And the fact that someone very "painfully/unbearably react" to awareness of lack of logic in their reasoning *nods in Raelbo direction* and when someone tries to invade their squalid inner worlds, with which they selfishly cut themselves off from outside world, just only lack of their life experience and own personal mental problems. It's difficult to fix, at least I don't think that you can do it. This requires certain qualification and motivation, which you probably don't possess... for me it's even for sure. But you still can get a little fun from this situation, because of their intellectual limitations and emotional disadvantage. What I'm trying to say is: analyze and present arguments and facts - argue, but don't be afraid that it will be difficult to reach someone, and in cases where logic will suggest that you're wrong, don't hesitate to admit your mistake. Keep it simple and normal people will trust you, but abnormal ones will hate. So therefore sometimes find strength to tell yourself "Stop!", because you can overdo with fun and since this all isn't really so important in essence, but you can hurt someone (due to their lack of button with such name, so they can crash easily). I know this is difficult, especially when you have all the answers to their questions, but this is something to strive for in absolute terms.

ps. Chill out. Considering all the facts that you have, simple logic tells you that they're wrong and you're right. You expressed everything you had and repeating it no longer makes sense... moreover, it only provoke them more. Who wanted, did already understand. Isn't it appropriate to stop? I see, that answer is "no". Well, good luck then.

[Bhorin]

Oh god, some guy got a full set of 340 gear which isn't even good enough to take part in any end game activity without mostly being carried. AFK or otherwise, it has nothing to do with TF. Your argument is so pitiful that you are not even arguing about TF (the topic of the thread) and are talking about difficulty of acquiring 340 gear which isn't even good enough to do anything interesting.

Just to go along with your silly argument... if a guy is reasonably lucky (e.g. no duplicate 370s) he can get a full set of 370 gear by doing like (13 slots * 1,100 per 370 item) 14,300 warfronts which requires ~20 minutes each (I am not sure exactly, but it is 15-30) which is 4,766 hours, even if botted 24/7 that is 198 days which is like 20 warfront cycles which requires them to do this for over a year. The fact that you think running a bot for 196 days of time is "easy" or a reasonable scenario to get 370 gear is hilarious. Even if they are "afking" just doing this for almost a year and a half to get a set of gear you can get in like 3 weeks doing 8 bosses a week is laughable.

This is a complete clown argument.. no surprise since you do seem to prefer strawmen + nonarguments.

[arkanon]

Oh god, some guy got a full set of 340 gear which isn't even good enough to take part in any end game activity without mostly being carried. AFK or otherwise, it has nothing to do with TF. Your argument is so pitiful that you are not even arguing about TF (the topic of the thread) and are talking about difficulty of acquiring 340 gear which isn't even good enough to do anything interesting.

Just to go along with your silly argument... if a guy is reasonably lucky (e.g. no duplicate 370s) he can get a full set of 370 gear by doing like (13 slots * 1,100 per 370 item) 14,300 warfronts which requires ~20 minutes each (I am not sure exactly, but it is 15-30) which is 4,766 hours, even if botted 24/7 that is 198 days which is like 20 warfront cycles which requires them to do this for over a year. The fact that you think running a bot for 196 days of time is "easy" or a reasonable scenario to get 370 gear is hilarious. Even if they are "afking" just doing this for almost a year and a half to get a set of gear you can get in like 3 weeks doing 8 bosses a week is laughable.

This is a complete clown argument.. no surprise since you do seem to prefer strawmen + nonarguments.

You are a bit daft and forgot to hit reply. But hey, lets just assume you are talking to me. Dont pretend i am the only one against WF/TF - people are leaving in their tens of thousands, and it is idiotic to put your fingers in your ears and your head in the sand and ignore the feedback of many ppl saying they do NOT like the system. This has nothing to do with a straw man argument, you obviously just read some other kids posting about it and tried to force it here, but it doesnt fit.

the FACT remains that players are gaining rewards FAR exceeding their input, and WF/TF only makes matters worse. That is the point many ppl are making, and many of you are ignoring, to the detriment of the game.

[Raelbo]

I asked you if that loot represented the effort, and you did exactly what i said you would, dodged the question, and came back with the ONLY reply any of you have "DERP DERP that hardly happens though bro like hardly ever HERP DERP"

NO. You asked a dishonest question designed to mislead, so I called you out on it. And now, again, you double down and ignore everything I said, simply cherry picking one or two little bits.

If you want to have a debate, then have a debate. Don't insist on ramming your poorly thought out, unsubstantiated, and misinformed opinion down everyone's throat because you have "feelz" that there is something wrong with the system when there are those of us out there who are capable of analysing information and constructing actual arguments that put your strawman and ad hominems to shame.
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Im glad we agree that someone can EASILY get to 370 ilvl without even doing NORMAL raid (355 REWARDS).

Holy shit that is an epic comprehension fail on your part. Because he said exactly nothing to that effect. He actually proved that realistically getting 370 is pretty much impossible, no matter how much effort you put in.

if you think afking thru warfronts = a "massive amount of work" then you are part of the problem.

Even after two people explained it you, how are still not getting the point? People "afking thru warfronts" is not even a TF issue. The simple proof being that the problem would still exist even if TF was removed.

That apart from the fact that the supposed "issue" of "afking thru warfronts" isn't even a real issue. Sure, there are probably a handful of people who manage to get away with it, but I would say that the vast majority who try get kicked.

Reality is that the vast majority of people in warfronts are actually active. They want to get the instance done quickly and obviously aren't ok with other people afking. Given that it's pretty obvious when someone is afk, it's highly unlikely that no one is going to notice or call for them to be kicked. In the end, even for a lazy shit of a player, it's probably less time and effort to just participate in the warfront, even if not putting in maximum effort, than going afk and then getting kicked and having to keep requeuing.

And if they choose to do so, why exactly do you even care? Your core argument seems to be that getting gear you don't deserve isn't fun. And while I can agree that afking through a warfront to get a piece of gear which might TF, and that afking through 1100 warfronts to get to 370 ilevel, would be horribly boring and unfun, there really is a very, very simple solution to that problem and it has nothing to do with removing TF.

If you are afking through 1100 warfronts, there is only really one victim and only really one person to blame: You.

[HuxNeva]

1) People need a true end goal, this is not a looter game its an RPG, there needs to be a goal, whist that goal can be hard to obtain it needs to be mathematically possible at the very least in a reasonable amount of time.

Wrong. WoW is a theme park PVE MMO. It providesvery basic support for RPG in the for of RP realms, but this is niche and certainly not the main core of the game. It also has always tried to provide a PvP side dish but has failed to provide anything substantial in the genre, mainly due to the tie-inn with the PvE game being a boatanchor to development of the nescessary systems to be competitve

2) Not being able to target a specific part of that goal is frustrating, it removes agency from the player and leaves that at the whims of a dice, one dice ( your item dropping) was enough randomness. You need to be able to see that you have made progress , got x badges today, farmed so much honour today getting close to that item rarther than logging on and getting a dice roll thats all or nothing every day. This is why the current PVP conquest system is in my mind vastly superior to that of the PvE gearing system.

This is pure preference. Some players do indeed crave predictability in their game, while to others abhor it and find filling bars not fun but just a chore. Limited RNG has been a staple in character progression games and proven to be an extremely successful ingredient in attracting a large player-base. The PvP conquest system might be suitable for that PvP environment, as would e.g. be templated characters, but it would not work for PvE character progression.

3) The exponential iLVL increase this system causes is doing real damage to the the systems of the game, they where not designed for it and its a mess. Stat squish and scaling all the time is not a way to solve this, i mean in a few more xpacs are lvl 60 epics going to have 0.1 DPS on them ? how are the numbers even going to work.

The exponential ilvl increase is not due to W/TF, but a design choice that makes it easier to offer discrete content in an open world (there are also some behavioral aspects related to habituation which makes linear increases feel less rewarding). The ilvl increase it introduces on a macro scale is predictable, linear and limited. Stat squish is needed due to legacy choices in the game's implementation, the negative impact this potentially has on older content was a deliberate trade-off in favor of the latest expansion. The zone scaling is an attempt to retain value of situated content in (semi) non-linear open world progression.

You can most certainly argue from a moral/ethical perspective whether some practices are acceptable.
Variable rate reinforcement schedules have been found to be more effective than fixed ratio schedules. They generate a higher rate of response and are more resistant to extinction. This has been extensively researched and is accepted as fact.
It is clear that this can be (and abundantly is) abused in a socio-economic system based on exploitation (welcome to market capitalism). The current 'loot crate' debates and emerging regulations are an example from that in gaming.

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I feel like I need to comment on this... and keep in mind, I am not trying to convince anyone to agree with me.

WF/TF ... back in Legion, yes... it was a problem. I watched several people rank up in high ilvl gear without putting any sort of effort into progression or the game in general. it was disappointing to see how all my hours of "work" was by-passed with just luck on their part. People were wanting to join M+ runs based off of the gear and not their skill. Skill was always most important to my group and myself. We never picked someone based off of their ilvl.

The players were complaining about the RNG... but people seem to forget that this game has always been RNG... ever since the first day of Classic wow RNG/Luck has always been here. I started playing back in 2006 and yes, I would get very frustraited when those wolf teeth wouldn't drop from every wolf I killed... I mean, they should all have teeth..
adding the luck factor to gear was just another way to reward players in the long run. As I said, in Legion it happened way too often and it seemed unfair to those who actually played the game.

Now in BFA the WF/TF luck chance has dropped significantly to the point where it doesn't bother me in the slightest. In fact, I see it more of a nice surprise when it does happen rather than a let down. A player still has to play the game a decent amount to even get the chance to receive one. WF/TF will not out gear anyone who actually does progression, like it did in Legion. Warfronts are another story... but I enjoy my free 370, just like anyone does. Although I feel it's a little odd, I still don't see that gear ever out-doing a raider in the long run.

This is coming from someone who does not have any sort of luck in the game. I've been farming the old Pandaria mounts for years on several characters and still, nothing. I rarely ever get a WF/TF piece of gear and when I do, it's more often not the stats I use but... it doesn't bother me. Luck is random and few and not game breaking.

I'd like to add that at least part of your perception on how WF/TF has changed does not come from actual changes, but from how the community has learned to cope. The idea that gearscore/ilvl == ability was always complete nonsense. WF/TF has not changed that at all as the average increase is linear and fairly limited. What did have a large impact is the change from a linear PvE progression system to one that has different paths. No longer do we have questing ->dungeons (N,H,M) ->raids (N,H,M), but with the introduction of M+ we now have a clear alternative first class endgame option. You could argue that we have always had more options if we include PvP, and indeed, even in the old single path PvE model we had friction such as people despising high ilvl invites to their pug which were found to be sporting PvP gear, because it violated their false 'ilvl' as a proxy for experience beliefs.

A second thing is that the content cycle has been sped up significantly. 'Catch-up', the idea that a player that has not been playing regularly should periodically be able to find traction again in the latest content, has always been a must. Without it it would mean falling behind your friends through circumstances would mean you would never be able to play with them again, unless they waited for you or you did a titanic effort (with others) to progress so much faster that you eventually caught up to them again. It has been there from the start, as can been seen in the discussion on 'Classic' about whether some dungeon content should be in from the start as doing so would trivialize other content. In BfA catch-up has been more present than ever before, as the last thing Blizzard wants to put in the way of potential 'returnees' in a playerbase that has been dwindling significantly is that they would need to invest significant effort before being able to play with their former friends again.
This is why today so many people feel that content 'achievements' are devalued so fast. Warfronts are part of the 'catchup', just as Najatar will be with it's ilvl430 currency gear.

The adaptation of our signals, our proxies we have for skill in an anonymous world (you know how well your guildies play without having to look at their 'ilvl') evolve slower than the game itself. Killing Ragnaros was once a clear indication of a non trivial achievement, but when later content trivializes this to the point where you can solo the raid, we got offered AOTC and CE. In todsy word of fast content cycles, we realize that even those have been commoditized and that it is the actual date on the achievement that is the closest indicator. That version of the encounter that Method conquers, is not even close to the same one that a guild that gets it on the final day of CE eligibility clears. We now have raider.io that makes access to actual player history trivial, so we adapt our signal richness to match the rapid changing and diverse game environment. The reason why as you said the catchup is not out-doing the raider is that by the time you can get to 'level' on catchup, the raider have long surpassed that, even if it feels like just a few moths back.

A last thing. Blizzard has always been tepid about segmenting the game into different silos. This is why there is still a PvE/PvP crossover, and M+ still requires raiding and true min/maxing requires going for the best rewards on offer from all 3.
It is a trade-off between on the one hand ensuring that players can move fluently beween silos and retain progress, but the other side of the coin is that each of the end game's modes (WoW raiding, WoW M+, WoW PvP) have to pay the cross-tax and have to compromise on being the best game that they could be.

[RoKPaNda]

You are a bit daft and forgot to hit reply. But hey, lets just assume you are talking to me. Dont pretend i am the only one against WF/TF - people are leaving in their tens of thousands, and it is idiotic to put your fingers in your ears and your head in the sand and ignore the feedback of many ppl saying they do NOT like the system. This has nothing to do with a straw man argument, you obviously just read some other kids posting about it and tried to force it here, but it doesnt fit.

the FACT remains that players are gaining rewards FAR exceeding their input, and WF/TF only makes matters worse. That is the point many ppl are making, and many of you are ignoring, to the detriment of the game.

Do you have any sort of proof of tens of thousands of people leaving because of WF/TF? Didn't think so. There are no lfr/normal/heroic heroes running around outgearing those of us that do Mythic. The only good gear most of them have comes from M+ and the system is designed to be an alternative to raiding. WF/TF hurt nothing.