Titanforging is here to stay

[Shakana]

The game has always distributed gear on a group result basis, not on individual contribution. This has nothing to do with TF. You achieve a result with a group, you get rewarded according to the outcome, not the 'effort' which would be undecidable anyways.

Personal loot, while you can have questions whether it should be forced on e.g. guild runs, is definitely the right way to go for PUGs.

Loot has always been RNG. You could farm for your trinket, best stat ring or set-piece for an entire tier without ever having it drop for you, while the derp friend got it on his first carry through.

From a scientific point of view, variable reward reinforcement beats fixed reward reinforcement by miles in term of engagement and retention. This is just a fact, backed up by many reproduced and detailed studies, regardless of your or mine opinion or preference. It is so scarily efficient that often we have to limit it's use through regulation to protect those captivated.

You can argue about its ethics, and morals, but if you are going to blame TF, or reward RNG in general, for reduced engagement or retention, you better come with some realy convincing detailed causal research and analysis. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

And lastly: if you are that interested in the topic, learn about the specifics of the W/T system. No, variable reward does not mean random reward. While the specifics of the model used are not published by Blizzard, it is not that hard to re-engineer a fairly close approximation based on the analysis of the reward stream data of your guild. Then you might learn that the model is actually very nicely tuned to preserve the difficulty stratifications in the game.

I saw it with my own eyes. This person did basically nothing,a run that takes me 30 minutes took me about 1h and 12m to complete because of this person and i got rewarded with nothing while this person got 420. It's not very nice tuned. It's bad.

[HuxNeva]

I saw it with my own eyes. This person did basically nothing,a run that takes me 30 minutes took me about 1h and 12m to complete because of this person and i got rewarded with nothing while this person got 420. It's not very nice tuned. It's bad.

Sometimes I wonder. Did you even read what I wrote?

[huth]

OK, since you are being as disingenuous as humanly possible, lets move to a world where all the points raised, all the ones you are aware of, are relevant, and worthy of a response. So please, lets "pretend" that all the other points raised are addressed directly at you.

Still cracking up that you say you wont respond to the other points raised, then respond to the points raised, but get it embarrassingly wrong. If you cant understand that handing out mythic raid quality items to people doing LFR reduces the reward for both mythic raiders AND LFR raiders, then im not really sure what else to say, because clearly you fail to understand even the absolute basics of being human.

You said yourself that putting in effort will SOMETIMES get you there faster. That was YOUR comment.

Of course it would sound wrong if you're misremembering it like that.

You might also get lucky and reach it early, but most of the time effort will get you there faster.

To get a full mythic quality set from LFR you'd have to do LFR (far) longer than the expansion lasts. It simply isn't a relevant concern.

Somebody here is indeed embarassingly wrong. But i'd say it's the one that can't correctly remember something said two posts up, not the person you're responding to.

[rrayy]

Today i did a 11 to help my alt and a person that is really not concerned about the game at all, while me and other people try to do all this and get bad RNG, this person that is awful playing got a 420 titanforge from a m+.

It really is unfair, for the people that is trying to get nice gear. We are not talking about a 410, no, this person got a 420 titanforged.

I've seen this too much times, but every single time i see it happening with the wrong people, i get shocked no matter what and i find it unfair for those who work hard to get stuff done. Why does the game has to give the same gear someone works hard to someone that doesn't care about it?

This system has too much flaws.

Ahh the old "Someone else got gear and I didn't therefore it is unfair" bit. Sorry, an argument based solely off of your entitlement doesn't make the system is unfair. The system is very fair because it doesn't discriminate. It's random.

Player entitlement like yours is a real problem with the game.

[Voidwielder]

Ahh the old "Someone else got gear and I didn't therefore it is unfair" bit. Sorry, an argument based solely off of your entitlement doesn't make the system is unfair. The system is very fair because it doesn't discriminate. It's random.

Player entitlement like yours is a real problem with the game.

It incentivizes behaviour and game play that is harmful to the game and community.

[Osmeric]

It incentivizes behaviour and game play that is harmful to the game and community.

Player entitlement does many bad things, yes.

[Shakana]

Ahh the old "Someone else got gear and I didn't therefore it is unfair" bit. Sorry, an argument based solely off of your entitlement doesn't make the system is unfair. The system is very fair because it doesn't discriminate. It's random.

Player entitlement like yours is a real problem with the game.

RNG is the worse thing ever too, therefore, nothing about it is good. Stay with your random luck, i prefer deserving something.

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Problem is people never seeing a problem in anything but then complaining about everything. Titanforging is not good, never will, it's amounts of luck and rng, the more you agree RNG is good, the more RNG you will get, so ye, have a onion layers of RNG in everything and say it's amazing. Your choices.

[Voidwielder]

Player entitlement does many bad things, yes.

I agree. Bad RNG systems (there are good one's as well) only facilitate that.

[Osmeric]

I agree. Bad RNG systems (there are good one's as well) only facilitate that.

It's a fine RNG system. It brings out deplorable tendencies in some people who don't like it, but that's a "you" problem.

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Subs have fallen at a faster rate than ever since MoP, MoP introduced WF. Pretty easy really. Give me one good reason to have WF in WoW

Oh the "logic" we see on forums. Hilarious.

[Voidwielder]

It's a fine RNG system. It brings out deplorable tendencies in some people who don't like it, but that's a "you" problem.

No, it objectively impacts how people play the game and how they view the possibly attainable character progression. It's a carrot on a stick of the worst kind, both for casuals and top-tier players.

[Osmeric]

No, it objectively impacts how people play the game and how they view the possibly attainable character progression. It's a carrot on a stick of the worst kind, both for casuals and top-tier players.

No, it's a great system which no decent person could dislike. The game is better off as a commercial entity for it.

See? I can argue by blatant assertion as well.

[Big Thanks]

What's wrong? Everything I've said is 100% factual. There's no way anyone can prove it's a direct correlation - but all you need to do is ask. I don't know a single person in game who likes titanforging. It's something you feel relieved when it happens and annoyed when it doesn't. It's an objectively shit system. Why the fuck would you want MORE RNG in a game as RNG heavy as WoW?

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Can anyone give me one reason why titanforging actually makes the game better?

Who is the crazy person who plays WoW EXPECTING titanforges...who?

Its not something you expect.

If that was the case a Mythic raider needed to do every week:
-All Mythic 0 dungeons
-All world quests that reward gear
-Spam all kinds of Mythic+ dungeons all day everyday
-LFR
-Normal
-Heroic

Does any person in his/her right mind does this in hopes of titanforges every week?

[ChairmanKaga]

Who is the crazy person who plays WoW EXPECTING titanforges...who?

Its not something you expect.

If that was the case a Mythic raider needed to do every week:
-All Mythic 0 dungeons
-All world quests that reward gear
-Spam all kinds of Mythic+ dungeons all day everyday
-LFR
-Normal
-Heroic

Does any person in their right mind does this in hopes of titanforges?

These people who complain that the game "forces" their behavior due to some delusion that they need all gear maxed at all times are tiring.

[Osmeric]

What's wrong? Everything I've said is 100% factual. There's no way anyone can prove it's a direct correlation - but all you need to do is ask. I don't know a single person in game who likes titanforging. It's something you feel relieved when it happens and annoyed when it doesn't. It's an objectively shit system. Why the fuck would you want MORE RNG in a game as RNG heavy as WoW?

You presented the decline as evidence that WF/TF is bad. This is ridiculous, for reasons even you recognize.

Can anyone give me one reason why titanforging actually makes the game better?

It encourages players to continue playing for longer, by getting rid of hard BiS caps on gear. It acts as an implicit nerf over time from content, which is also objectively a good thing for the game. It encourages people to catch up by playing with others, since non-forged drops that the more geared players no longer need can be funneled to the returning players.

All of these things make the game function better. The cost is that certain people become unhappy seeing others who they think of as not deserving getting gear. But making those sorts of people unhappy is another positive benefit. Getting them to quit would be even better.

[Lurker1]

In 8.2 patch titanforge is the least of your worrys op.

[alturic]

The cost is that certain people become unhappy seeing others who they think of as not deserving getting gear. But making those sorts of people unhappy is another positive benefit. Getting them to quit would be even better.

Lemme guess, millennial?

When in the utter fuck was there this massive shift in society that everyone deserves everything, without working for it? That thinking is NOT a positive thing.

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In 8.2 patch titanforge is the least of your worrys op.

Haven’t kept up on the PTR notes, could you give some idea of these terrible systems?

[arkanon]

Of course it would sound wrong if you're misremembering it like that.



To get a full mythic quality set from LFR you'd have to do LFR (far) longer than the expansion lasts. It simply isn't a relevant concern.

Somebody here is indeed embarassingly wrong. But i'd say it's the one that can't correctly remember something said two posts up, not the person you're responding to.

I absolute LOVE how even when directly challenged to reply to all the points raised, instead of just doing the flat earther thing and focusing in on one tiny aspect you feel you can discredit, you literally did that EXACT thing in your reply.

Instead of addressing all the points raised, or any of them for that matter, you decide to argue the difference between "sometimes" and "most of the time".

Pathetic.

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Lemme guess, millennial?

When in the utter fuck was there this massive shift in society that everyone deserves everything, without working for it? That thinking is NOT a positive thing.

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These people dont understand basic reward structures and motivations. By rewarding mythic gear to everyone and anyone, regardless of the content they do, and REGARDLESS OF THE FREQUENCY, devalues the experience for EVERYONE, including those getting the mythic rewards. I guess if you were an entitled wanker who thinks they "earned" that 420 by not getting flagged afk in the warfront - i guess those ppl might feel good about it?

But overall it has devalued all content and rewards, and it doesnt seem to matter how many people explain their thoughts and feelings about the system, there are those hell bent on defending it - all the while pretending to be hardcore mythic raiders for fear of people realising they buy 1 +10 a week, do their warfronts, and afk through lfr.

[re1gn1te]

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ne...onal-questions

What do you think?

If they keep TF the game will never ever be good again. The game will not be good with trash systems in it.

[arkanon]

What's wrong? Everything I've said is 100% factual. There's no way anyone can prove it's a direct correlation - but all you need to do is ask. I don't know a single person in game who likes titanforging. It's something you feel relieved when it happens and annoyed when it doesn't. It's an objectively shit system. Why the fuck would you want MORE RNG in a game as RNG heavy as WoW?

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Can anyone give me one reason why titanforging actually makes the game better?

I have asked the same question multiple times. They dodge it like the plague. None of them can answer why removing the system would be bad, either. Ill tell you why - They are the LFR players - the warfront afkers - they buy their +10, and sit back and wait. Those are the only people who would defend such a system.

They also ALWAYS back themselves into a corner when trying to nail down the likelihood of getting WF/TF.

Argument - "WF/TF allows players to obtain gear they didnt earn, and gear far beyond the content they are doing, and as such, it is a bad system that devalues content"

Response - "That NEVER happens, ppl would be lucky to get a single high lvl WF let alone any TF over an entire expac, its just a nice little bonus when it happens!"

Ok, so just remove the system, since it has barely any impact at all?

Response - "NONONONO, you cant remove it, it will totally break raid progression! this system allows guilds to clear content they are stuck on!"

Wait, so now its rewarding such massive ilvl increases over ENTIRE GUILDS that they can progress through content? Sounds OP and really should be removed"

Response - "nonono, dont take mah free ilvls"

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If they keep TF the game will never ever be good again. The game will not be good with trash systems in it.

Although i dont think the situation is quite that serious, i do agree the system is trash. There is absolutely no reason NOT to remove the system. They could leave the foundations, but instead have it rewarding Xmog items, pets, and mounts - there is absolutely no objective reason for it to be rewarding ilvl increases on gear.

Its a system built to reward lazy gameplay, and farming of low level content. This increases their MAU, which is how they report. The people who refuse to accept something so obvious are beyond help.

[Has lost its way]

I guess I am alright with it... what got me to quit after ten years was the ever growing amount of time needed to prepare for raids. I don't really know who modern wow is aimed at but it isn't me anymore.

Still with any luck I might get to see the burning crusade again and that would be nice.