Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
... LastLast
  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrif View Post
    Not if we give teachers back the authority they had in general. Hitting a teacher back in the day would get you straight up expelled.
    Pretty sure you still get expelled for hitting a teacher, but most teenage boys are going to react in the heat of the moment. I remember seeing two athletes going at it at school, it took four security guards to break it up and one of the kids ran off of school grounds shirtless and had to be caught. They can be savages and threatening them with violence doesn't seem like an even remotely good answer.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Leaving aside teachers flouting this rule, topics like climate change, sex ed and so on are all very political. Hell even plain old history is.
    Climate change and sexual education are not political, one's an environmental issue and the other is just basic education. Even then, if students/parents aren't comfortable, they're not required to participate in the latter.

  2. #22
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    2,084
    Quote Originally Posted by Techno-Druid View Post
    Climate change and sexual education are not political, one's an environmental issue and the other is just basic education.
    Depending on your political persuasion, sure. Plenty of right-wing people would say that climate change is (a) a scam and (b) not something kids need to learn about, and as for sex ed... yeah I don't think I need to say much there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Techno-Druid View Post
    Even then, if students/parents aren't comfortable, they're not required to participate in the latter.
    Depends on where you live.
    Still not tired of winning.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Depending on your political persuasion, sure. Plenty of right-wing people would say that climate change is (a) a scam and (b) not something kids need to learn about, and as for sex ed... yeah I don't think I need to say much there.
    Like I said, schools can explore politics, just from a more academic or neutral point of view. Teachers can't force their politics unto students, at least not intentionally.

    Climate change is about science, first and foremost however, just like evolution and sexes (males and females). You don't get to censor science just because a portion of society feels offended or finds it in bad taste.

  4. #24
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    2,084
    Quote Originally Posted by Techno-Druid View Post
    Climate change is about science, first and foremost however, just like evolution and sexes (males and females). You don't get to censor science just because a portion of society feels offended or finds it in bad taste.
    If by "about science" you mean "how not to do it" then perhaps, but why are young kids being taught about that stuff anyway? Leave the worrying over the corruption of science for later, and go back to teaching them the three R's or some other useful stuff for kids their age. Heck, maybe just teach them how to actually do science properly instead of how Michael Mann does it.

    But if by "about science" you mean "anthropogenic global warming is a serious risk to the world" and such, then you're talking baloney and are trying to propagandise or brainwash children into believing this claptrap.



    You see the problem now? At least with evolution you can talk about what creationists call "micro-evolution" without causing a fuss, but the climate change stuff is just a gigantic political minefield.
    Still not tired of winning.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    If by "about science" you mean "how not to do it" then perhaps, but why are young kids being taught about that stuff anyway? Leave the worrying over the corruption of science for later, and go back to teaching them the three R's or some other useful stuff for kids their age. Heck, maybe just teach them how to actually do science properly instead of how Michael Mann does it.

    But if by "about science" you mean "anthropogenic global warming is a serious risk to the world" and such, then you're talking baloney and are trying to propagandise or brainwash children into believing this claptrap.



    You see the problem now? At least with evolution you can talk about what creationists call "micro-evolution" without causing a fuss, but the climate change stuff is just a gigantic political minefield.
    Climate change isn't something elementary school students are going to be taught, that seems more high school level, where the majority of students already have a rudimentary understanding of the world and society.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Techno-Druid View Post
    Pretty sure you still get expelled for hitting a teacher, but most teenage boys are going to react in the heat of the moment. I remember seeing two athletes going at it at school, it took four security guards to break it up and one of the kids ran off of school grounds shirtless and had to be caught. They can be savages and threatening them with violence doesn't seem like an even remotely good answer.
    That's a very broad statement based on a single piece of vaguely anecdotal story. The school system where teachers were allowed disciplinary behavior worked for a very long time and wasn't dismantled because it didn't or because hormonal teenagers were hitting teachers, it was dismantled because our view on how to best school children changed.

  7. #27
    Deleted
    There has been tonnes of research into education over the last 100 years yet for some reason schools still follow the basic principals of Victorian England.

    It's not like people even back then weren't critical of it at the time. Dickens' Hard Times spends a lot of time criticising the idea that education is about nothing more than filling small people full of a catalogue of useless facts.

  8. #28
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    2,084
    Quote Originally Posted by Techno-Druid View Post
    Climate change isn't something elementary school students are going to be taught, that seems more high school level, where the majority of students already have a rudimentary understanding of the world and society.
    You'd be surprised...

    https://teachers-climate-guide.fi/cl...primary-level/
    https://www.trocaire.org/sites/defau...ate_change.pdf
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/08/l...te-change.html

    Etc
    Still not tired of winning.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrif View Post
    That's a very broad statement based on a single piece of vaguely anecdotal story. The school system where teachers were allowed disciplinary behavior worked for a very long time and wasn't dismantled because it didn't or because hormonal teenagers were hitting teachers, it was dismantled because our view on how to best school children changed.
    Teachers are still allowed to discipline students, just not hit them short of self-defense. Culture and society changes, it was also considered permissable to hit women at one point in time.

    We progressed away from that in Western societies just as we did with students and aside from anecdotes, there's nothing really supporting the idea that students benefit from corporal punishment, the opposite given what we know about the potential negative psychological effects of it.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen Gondola View Post
    Smaller classes and/or more teaching aides, ditching no child left behind.
    Yeah, that policy was a huge mistake. There are some people that quite frankly don't need to graduate and should never have been pushed through the system. When I went through my trade school, we had some students there who were illiterate and had to have their tests read to them.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Techno-Druid View Post
    Teachers are still allowed to discipline students, just not hit them short of self-defense. Culture and society changes, it was also considered permissable to hit women at one point in time.
    Interesting, I don't ever remember my Grandfather laying a hand on my Grandmother and he was an ultra-conservative Methodist, WWII vet, and a Texan wheat farmer. Matter of fact, from an old story I remember from my Mother, he only spanked both her and my Uncle one time after my Grandmother had asked him to after they had misbehaved one day. Afterwards he went up to her, very angry, and said, "Don't you ever ask me to hit those children again!"

  12. #32
    In many countries there are technical highschools, where you finish highschool at 18 with a level3 EQF* diploma (*European Qualification Framework)

    kids that have some preference in education should be able to join such schools in every country

    There is still some general education, but the main focus is on a profession or their choosing. so they can focus more on what they like
    and the geek shall inherit the earth

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonus View Post
    This paints an extremely inaccurate picture of schools today.

    Today, teachers are encouraged to have students work in groups. In my classes they do frequent group projects and creativity is explicitly encouraged. My high school has a certificate system where students choose what they are interested in and pursue electives so they can graduate with a concentration in an area. Time management is crucial because many students are involved in sports, arts, endless extracurricular activities.

    The main problem I see, however, is that I can only use these strategies on the very small proportion of my students who have been well raised. There's a huge group of students that, if given freedom to be creative and work independently, will just choose to do nothing. So on one end of the spectrum I have a class where I give a worksheet at the start of the class and tell my kids to work together to see if they can figure something out on their own. Meanwhile, on the other end of the spectrum, I have a class where I give them a worksheet that reteaches them the rote knowledge they missed last class because they barely ever pay attention, and I give them a grade based on whether they actually are working on it when I walk by (because otherwise they will do nothing). On Wednesday in my period 1 I had 4 students who came to school and immediately fell asleep at their desks. I responded by playing loud children's music, which woke 3 of them up (the 4th remained totally unresponsive). A lot of the grade in that class is based on effort and providing little rewards for doing things, because you have to keep the kids constantly active or the behavior starts to go haywire. You can't spend more than 30 minutes on any one activity because again, they start to get restless. Without explicit structures and rules, nothing gets done, and you end up with kids fighting in your classroom instead of working creatively or whatever.

    A large proportion of students, if given freedom to be creative and explore, will just do nothing. Every day in class, you're trying to force knowledge into completely unwilling brains. Of course, it gets repetitive and boring, and people hate the teacher. The degree to which students don't apply any effort is truly astonishing. Example:

    Here's how we taught linear equations and slope in my low level class... first we taught about y=mx + b, but using a ton of real world examples (a pizza costs $10.00 and .50 per topping...). We did an entire unit on "drawing linear equations", then another unit on "writing linear equations" which is the exact same thing but in the other direction. Then we taught about parallel and perpendicular lines, which is really just teaching y = mx + b again, but with a slight twist at the end. Then we taught scatter plots, where they draw a line in y = mx + b form, which is, again, just another way to expose them to the same concept again. Then we taught graphing inequalities, which is the same as graphing but you shade above or below the line. Finally, at the end of this, one kid said, "Anyone else notice how the last 10 things we've learned are all basically the same thing?" Still, the average grade on the next test was an F.

    The kids pay so little attention that you just end up teaching the same thing over and over. But if you teach the exact same thing, they get mad. So you dress it up differently. Their minds are totally turned off. When I try to do something creative, it bombs. I gave them an interactive thing where they were trying to find slope, and it was kind of a guessing game designed to get them to work out the rules on their own. One question it asked was literally "Guess a number!" and the kids were like, "I don't know what number to guess!". One girl asked me, "Can you just teach the normal way?"

    Where do the parents fall on this spectrum? On parents night, the session for my high level class is standing room only and I can barely scratch the surface on the number of questions I get. The session for my low level class is nearly empty. I interact regularly with parents who consider a D to be totally fine.

    The most frustrating part about all this is, obviously, the degree to which parents are content to just let their kids be dumb. But then, there's the problem where the school system invests massive resources in those kids, who just aren't ever going to try. Special ed is out of control. Kids get identified, they get special treatment, and as a teacher you're given a document for that kid telling you all of the "accommodations" you are supposed to provide them to ensure they are successful. Each kid has like 8 things, and you might have 10 kids who are sped in one room. It's impossible to actually do all of these things individually, so you end up just making the class easier for everyone, and you make sure to never give a sped kid an F because you might get in trouble for not giving them appropriate accommodations (holy crap do I give a lot of D-s).

    One of the frustrating things that's a result of this system is that teachers aren't encouraged to spend time pushing the bright students. Teaching bright students forces teachers to become better; more knowledgeable so they can push their students. But no one cares about that, so the teachers don't have to become any smarter and at the end of the day the smart kids are disillusioned.

    You hear a lot about how great the educational system in the 50s was, and to me a big part of that was people saying, "Hey we have to beat the Russians; we need to develop really smart kids." In that situation, you focus on the kids who try, and the kids who don't get left behind unless they step up. As silly as the 'we have to beat the russians" mantra was, it actually pushed us in the right direction. Right now we are engaged in a quixotic quest to "leave no child behind" which means the worse a student is, the more we invest in them, and the less return we get out of it. It's ridiculous.
    I can empathize, it's not easy being a teacher and that's pretty apparent, I also cannot speak for your students as I literally have no idea what they're like outside of the information you provided me, but do you ever look at your students—the one's that are seemingly unresponsive—and see them excel in anything else? I was terrible at math and as a result often didn't pay much attention in class, but at the same time I could also point out every country in Europe and Africa and give you a rundown of every major war fought by the US from 1812 to Afghanistan.

    Maybe I'm the exception, but I just don't think it's fair to the teachers or students and both do come off as feeling powerless in the situations they are in. Now to be fair, long division definitely falls under basic math, but on principle, I just don't think teachers should be forced to be disspassionate or invest resources into students who have no interest in learning one subject over the other and I don't think it's fair to the students, trying to teach them stuff they will just forget about when those resources could be invested in something they excel in.

    Of course again I'm not a teacher, but it's just my opinion on this based on both being a student and pure observation. Our modern education system seems like a lose-lose situation to an extent.
    Last edited by Techno-Druid; 2018-11-18 at 02:11 PM.

  14. #34
    The current system is cheap and easy. Until we care more about education for all, it won't change. This doesn't affect the rich because their kids are sent to good schools. The rich care, they do something about it. Just not for other people.

  15. #35
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Russia, Chelyabinsk (Tankograd)
    Posts
    13,849
    Quote Originally Posted by Katie N View Post
    Schools are not the same in every country. xD What country are you talking about?
    if not specified - they are talking about US, obviously.

    OT: google education 3.0, i've heard it was implemented somewhere in Finland. Schools should be changed, it's a disaster right now compared to what they could've been
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  16. #36
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Обединени социалистически щати на Америка
    Posts
    28,394
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimjinx View Post
    Schools in the Netherlands are even worse, they’re much the same except extra curricular activities are almost none-existent. In good American school they have a lot of clubs that drive students to compete and excell, I think that’s a great system.
    Relative to the US schools, the dutch ones are like paradise.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    Relative to the US schools, the dutch ones are like paradise.
    Because most US schools are underfunded, but those who do have enough money do it much better. The reason why most US schools are bad doesn't have much to do with the school system.

  18. #38
    I don't know why we can't have home schooling for everyone, done on a computer.

    To catch cheaters we require them to come in once a year and take a proctored test. if they fail, they fail the whole year.

    Also lesson plans could be done nationally so everyone gets the same quality.
    .

    "This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can."

    -- Capt. Copeland

  19. #39
    Scarab Lord Boricha's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Sejong, South Korea
    Posts
    4,183
    My perspective on high school was pretty skewed. I was in a bubble of people that took honors/ap classes exclusively all four years. We all had subjects that we preferred, I loved history and didn't care for math, but we did well regardless because there was a lot of peer pressure around getting an A. We didn't have official concentrations, but we had lots of options for electives so you could theme your classes outside of the core subjects. People I knew from middle school who didn't do very well may as well have vanished in high school. I saw them in the courtyard sometimes, but their classes had weird names like "technical math" and they never seemed to be going to the same building as me.

    The biggest issues that I saw at the time were bullying and violence. Our school cracked down hard on drugs, but they never seemed to address the people who got into fights a lot or consistently harassed other people. I also had one or two dud teachers who clearly didn't want to be there.

    Tbh, I didn't like high school. Middle school was the "golden age" of K-12 for me. I had a small friend group that I really liked in middle school, but a lot of "friends of friends" got added on in high school and some of them were as toxic and narcissistic as it gets. I also had a lot of issues at home with my parents fighting, and there was one person in particular who always tried to harass me when we had a class together.

    Besides the obvious that schools need better and more equal funding, there also has to be an attitude change. The stigma against teachers as falling back because they failed in their industry has to go. Students also have to care more about academia, which includes their parents making them care by being good role models.
    Last edited by Boricha; 2018-11-18 at 02:54 PM.

  20. #40
    Scarab Lord Boricha's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Sejong, South Korea
    Posts
    4,183
    Quote Originally Posted by Hubcap View Post
    I don't know why we can't have home schooling for everyone, done on a computer.

    To catch cheaters we require them to come in once a year and take a proctored test. if they fail, they fail the whole year.

    Also lesson plans could be done nationally so everyone gets the same quality.
    Homeschooling relies on the parents ensuring their kids actually do the work and learn something, which is a recipe for disaster. Professional teachers exist for a reason.
    Last edited by Boricha; 2018-11-18 at 02:53 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •