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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    when will people accept that extremly huge chunk of playerbase never ever cared about them in first place .

    huge chunk of playerbase love the direction wow is taking

    take a notice that in WoD most prominent argument was not "we dont have enough dungeons , we dont have enough legendaries or tier bonuses suck" only "there is no world content to do"

    warfronts / islands/ wq are exackly this key elements that WoD missed .
    Citation needed for ALL of that.

    Regardless:

    "We don't have enough dungeons" should be answered with more dungeons, not the removal of other features.
    "We don't have enough Legendaries" should be answered with more and better Legendaries, not scrapping of the entire system.
    "Tier bonuses suck" means people want better, more balanced tier bonuses that make sense, not complete replacement of tier bonuses with a WORSE system that requires you to re-grind your set every time you get a new piece of gear.
    "There is no world content to do" is still a problem. Adding more instanced content doesn't address that at all!

    Nothing you've just said makes any sense. You're basically just white-knighting blizzard at this point.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2018-11-22 at 01:02 AM.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Cæli View Post
    What I find the most worrisome is the apparent change of direction in artstyle. The art, the music is different. Compare a screenshot with wow vanilla and a new warfront, you'll see. Colors have less depth, less vibrant, it's closer to paint style software that you can see on artstation, different than before.

    I'm not saying that vanilla is technically superior, I'm saying that the art and essence is more and more different as time pass. This can indeed undo world of warcraft while the majority isn't even noticing.

    Gameplay as we know already changed a lot, probably to scale to the changing market and demographics.

    Remove gameplay and art from a legendary game, you're getting a terrible waste yes.
    I think it depends on the expansion theme. BFA is a tad darker and gloomier than other expacs, hence the color palette won't be as vibrant? Just my thinking.
    The hunter hoe with the least beloe.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    I like the features....fuck the systems like azerite
    Seriously the Azerite system failures could've all be avoided if everything was baked into the necklace like legion artifacts and we just had normal drops for head, shoulders, chest. It's so glaringly obvious I don't know how thick Blizzard could possibly be to not see this

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Th3Scourge View Post
    Seriously the Azerite system failures could've all be avoided if everything was baked into the necklace like legion artifacts and we just had normal drops for head, shoulders, chest. It's so glaringly obvious I don't know how thick Blizzard could possibly be to not see this
    So technically it is being speculated that blizz is going to do that to the necklace

    My problem with azerite is the entire system
    Locking gear pieces making us grind AP to unlock the same trait but on a higher ilvl version of the same piece.
    The grind is pointless compared to legion where literally everything gave you AP so you always had justification for any playstyle.
    AP unlock levels scaling if you have a lot before you get the drop.
    Limited ways to attain it that were never clear.
    Pointless beyond 29 I think
    Compared to legion it's a lite version and the system was never going to work

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Kayytee View Post
    Its staggering the amount of resources blizzard is devoting to aspects of this expansion that nobody cares about.
    Warfronts, isle expos, azerite. Take warfronts and isle expos out of the game and nobody will notice. Take azerite out and people will be happy.

    Its insane that so many resources are being wasted on ideas which are clearly failures. Instead of developers focusing on actual class balance, they're focusing on adding new azerite traits. Instead of getting more/more instersting/more frequent dungeon and raid encounters, we're getting fucking warfronts and isle expos.

    I get that some experimentation and trial is needed to discover new and interesting concepts. The problem here is that instead of treading lightly and gauging what works and what doesn't, bliz loaded up all of its resources into a train which has already derailed. And instead of accepting this they are doubling down, adding to the train more of what made it derail in the first place. That being boring, one dimensional grind-fests, existing only to fuel a horribly designed azerite system which the game would be better without.

    BFA is like a product from a sh!tty late night infomercial. Its got all these supposed features; Azerite! Warfronts! Island expeditions! Super absorbent! But the reality is that its cheap garbage.

    The problem though is that BFA isn't cheap garbage. Its expensive garbage. The amount of art and so called "design" resources that went into these failed concepts is staggering. Hell, we could have probably had another xpac by now.

    Get your shit together bliz.
    It's not surprising at all. Island expeditions have been a massive hit with the casual crowd, and guess who makes up the majority of the players.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    So technically it is being speculated that blizz is going to do that to the necklace

    My problem with azerite is the entire system
    Locking gear pieces making us grind AP to unlock the same trait but on a higher ilvl version of the same piece.
    The grind is pointless compared to legion where literally everything gave you AP so you always had justification for any playstyle.
    AP unlock levels scaling if you have a lot before you get the drop.
    Limited ways to attain it that were never clear.
    Pointless beyond 29 I think
    Compared to legion it's a lite version and the system was never going to work
    I agree with you 100% but if the design philosophy was the same as legion but concentrated on one item only (the necklace) then most of the problems with Azerite gear could be avoided.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Cæli View Post
    What I find the most worrisome is the apparent change of direction in artstyle. The art, the music is different. Compare a screenshot with wow vanilla and a new warfront, you'll see. Colors have less depth, less vibrant, it's closer to paint style software that you can see on artstation, different than before.

    I'm not saying that vanilla is technically superior, I'm saying that the art and essence is more and more different as time pass. This can indeed undo world of warcraft while the majority isn't even noticing.

    Gameplay as we know already changed a lot, probably to scale to the changing market and demographics.

    Remove gameplay and art from a legendary game, you're getting a terrible waste yes.
    What? The art is the only redeeming feature at this point. It's beautifully done. It's all handpainted and clearly has so much passion and love put into it. It's the only thing I miss about this game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kpmk View Post
    It's not surprising at all. Island expeditions have been a massive hit with the casual crowd, and guess who makes up the majority of the players.
    Massive hit? Really? source?

  8. #188
    The Lightbringer Cæli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    Those "vibrant colors" are the main reason vanilla looks like shit. It's like they used a palette of 32 colors, there's nothing good looking about it. The technical limitations clearly show that the artists had no means of creating good looking assets. That has changed a lot.
    vibrant colors are excellent, what's not to like ? colors are beautiful! lots of depth.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Then I guess it's a good thing that there's nothing realistic about the art style in BfA. The closest you get to "realism" in wow is the movie-quality cinematics. Which are a pretty stark contrast to those made with modified in-game assets.

    Vanilla had plenty of style. It just looks like garbage compared to the stuff they're putting out these days. I'm not going to put down the work of the people who did the art for Vanilla...they did the best with what they had. But come on... The art team is the backbone of this game, regardless of whatever you think about the decisions made by the game systems developers. And that hasn't changed in BfA.
    colors had more depth in earlier expansions, more flashy, maybe it was due to a technical reason, or not, well

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by melzas View Post
    Yeah very colourful zones like silithus (very full of color brown), Desolace (very full of color grey), Blasted Lands (very full of color orange), Tanaris (very full of color desert sand), Swamp of Sorrows (very full of color dark green).

    Yeah man, those one color zones were so fucking vibrant and artsy, omg we will never get anything on that level...
    well I love grey, grey skies, murky places and rainy gloomy places so it's also part of wow and it's great

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    IEs are Diablo 3 rifts and greater rifts. Rifts were absolutely terrible in D3 and they are terrible in WoW too. Its designed to provide variety and replayability but the content is so easy and so on rails that it is mindless and boring.
    At least rifts have steady progression going for them. Islands are just a treadmill in front of a slot machine.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    .

    So it seems enough people are up for it....queuing for 5 mans...heroic, timewalking...whatever...definitely takes a lot longer
    That's because 5 mans require a specific comp: Tank/heal/3xDPS. WF and islands take whoever. WB are hit or miss, but otherwise also don't have any restrictions really.

    Context is important here.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Th3Scourge View Post
    I agree with you 100% but if the design philosophy was the same as legion but concentrated on one item only (the necklace) then most of the problems with Azerite gear could be avoided.
    I agree but unless they fix acquisition it would still have that problem and the boredom aspect of the traits.
    I think we simply need 3 things
    1. Drops we work towards
    2. More interesting choices (traits that do more than increase a stat or add damage)
    3. Paragon trait levels (if they added another 5 ilvl bonus per 3 levels after the final unlock then farming it would be perfectly fine)

    We are getting the first 2 soon

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Cæli View Post
    What I find the most worrisome is the apparent change of direction in artstyle. The art, the music is different. Compare a screenshot with wow vanilla and a new warfront, you'll see. Colors have less depth, less vibrant, it's closer to paint style software that you can see on artstation, different than before.

    I'm not saying that vanilla is technically superior, I'm saying that the art and essence is more and more different as time pass. This can indeed undo world of warcraft while the majority isn't even noticing.

    Gameplay as we know already changed a lot, probably to scale to the changing market and demographics.

    Remove gameplay and art from a legendary game, you're getting a terrible waste yes.
    I remember them saying once that wow's art style involved watercolors and stuff like brush strokes.

    As for gameplay, its pretty funny you mention that. They changed the game, which has 12 million subscribers at one point, to more easily work with general audiences. What happened? The majority of the 12 million playing quit and the general audience ignored WoW anyway to play games like COD and League.

    Essentially they appealed to a demographic that was never going to play the game anyway, sold out a demographic they had a complete lock on, and destroyed their own game. GG

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    The problem here is that we're asked to pay for it for 2+ years ($360 for 24 months if you do $15/month) and to live with it until they get it right, if they do. This isn't an issue for some things like the little game they had in... Cata? Fore larger features, though, it's a bigger issue.



    This is why you have internal builds. The problem isn't the AI it's that Expeditions are boring, repetitive content that isn't really challenging unless you try difficulty for which you're under geared. Honestly, I haven't noticed any really innovative tactics from the AI either but I've only done the entry level version, so... eh.

    The problem isn't that they try new things, it's that so many of these things have obvious flaws. At the same time... we call out warfronts for being repetitive but face it, so is LFR. Expeditions are boring but I doubt they took a lot to create. Once you have the island itself made and populated it's basically testing and refining mob AI which is a research project mostly.


    Frankly, BfA's issue is that so many of the new features are underwhelming. IF you just like to do the core stuff that's always in WoW (PvP, raids, 5 mans, questing) it's fine. It's that there's nothing NEW that make you want to do those things either at all or for very long.
    I agree with you here, but let's see in 8.1 if islands feel better, specially the new 2. as for warfronts, they were fun the first 2-3 times, then just a way to get a 370. The new one tho i'm interested because of the lore maybe i'll like it more maybe not, but i'm certainly hyped for the heroic warfronts although they won't come until 8.1.5 or 8.2 or 8.2.5 I don't remember what he said. Sometimes my guild is tired of raiding and a heroic warfront would be something fun to do as a raid group ^^

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Cæli View Post
    What I find the most worrisome is the apparent change of direction in artstyle. The art, the music is different. Compare a screenshot with wow vanilla and a new warfront, you'll see. Colors have less depth, less vibrant, it's closer to paint style software that you can see on artstation, different than before.

    I'm not saying that vanilla is technically superior, I'm saying that the art and essence is more and more different as time pass. This can indeed undo world of warcraft while the majority isn't even noticing.

    Gameplay as we know already changed a lot, probably to scale to the changing market and demographics.

    Remove gameplay and art from a legendary game, you're getting a terrible waste yes.
    Really? Art is what you're worried about most? No matter how good the game looks, if it feels like shit to play, there's a problem. Gameplay > everything else.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Kayytee View Post
    Its staggering the amount of resources blizzard is devoting to aspects of this expansion that nobody cares about.
    How do you know that nobody cares about these aspects? I get that this content is not for all, but coming to the conclusion that "nobody" cares just seem like angry typing.

    I care. I raid, I do warfronts, I do Island Expeditions. While I agree that not all content is equally fun, I actually find the current content satifying, apart from Azerite..... I hate Azerite

    Z.

  15. #195
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    I agree but unless they fix acquisition it would still have that problem and the boredom aspect of the traits.
    I think we simply need 3 things
    1. Drops we work towards
    2. More interesting choices (traits that do more than increase a stat or add damage)
    3. Paragon trait levels (if they added another 5 ilvl bonus per 3 levels after the final unlock then farming it would be perfectly fine)

    We are getting the first 2 soon
    I repeat for umpteenth time, it will be even worse and you have already passed this in Legion. What you need is normal classes design, and not pieces of your strategy scattered on all corners of Azeroth. Items are expansion progress, these are stats/characteristics, this is your "role" and main content separator, but “class stuff” is your character progress in game as a whole, this is your strategy and style of play (otherwise, you will get an imbalance and "mandatory" items, exceptions to super flexible systems that you'll never get from Blizzard).

    BIS items can't be avoided, especially in case of scant builds choice (since it became super-relevant, since trees were removed in specs' favor, which essentially don't change builds within its borders, but often only button/effect you use, with taking into account BfA: which are also not equivalent = with clear favorites), they can only be made inaccessible, as in case of w/tf, which only causes players frustration, because depriving sense of control over situation/customization/gameplay, which leads game to less interactivity/involvement/interaction and breaking basic progress/competition rules/principles for games of this genre. Prolonged and purposeful construction of such boundaries suggests that they're trying to limit players' imagination and capabilities to their own (if it were above average players' level, than it might won't be so bad, but judging by socio-demographic statistical trend, bar slowly, but clearly falls) and that their current slogan could sound something like this: "Player's choice freedom isn't game's advantage, but developer’s disadvantage".

    I understand that it's difficult to explain this to people who have never seen it, but... I don't know. Maybe I just lack words or am mistaken with their choice? I mean, everything is simple and easy to understand/lying on surface, why it's still so hard to get it?

    Do you know when this will really work? When everywhere there will be a “constantly active” scaling of everything with everything and there will be no classes at all, then it will somehow work without interfering anything, but (how it isn't strange) it’s still relatively far away (not so completely unattainable, but in near future; this is the way how it looks like in approximated game future according to some people I know; not that I believed it, looks disgusting even on paper, like murdered progress, but in principle). And it doesn't matter how many and what traites you'll adding, but still problems/conflicts/displeasure won't go anywhere.

    As for WF/IE - are just this. I'm not saying, that no one like it, but let's call things by their proper names.

    ps. *feels drained*
    Quote Originally Posted by Cæli View Post
    I'd say both are important! gameplay would hardly take place in a non compelling setup, interest would be lost rather fast, and passion would not shine, but caring about gameplay first is a solid strategy for a business
    Well, you can't always guess. Ie, my departure was directly related to art "change" (= character models) together with shameless mechanism for its implementation. They changed my characters (almost nothing to do with originals, except for the name) and took control of their display in the game from me (technically, they violated their own game rules). Neither I nor my friends could put up with it and we left. The end.

    I mean, yes, it can be outweighing factor. Problem here is precisely in change, because if art were such initially, I won't ever spend time on this "kindergarten" regardless of gameplay (as I did with Wildstar or Swtor - never touched these games, I had similar impressions from Overwatch and Fortnite (here also played additional factor that I'm not fan of FPSs, but if talking about art), not mine at all, full of excesses, repulsive). Many people just don't understand that quality and technology don't always go together and it's especially true regarding art. Technology doesn't improve it, just expands directions and tools. Although, I hope, they at least realize that opinions and impressions are relative, while reconstruction accuracy is determined value.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-06-13 at 06:25 AM.
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  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    I remember them saying once that wow's art style involved watercolors and stuff like brush strokes.

    As for gameplay, its pretty funny you mention that. They changed the game, which has 12 million subscribers at one point, to more easily work with general audiences. What happened? The majority of the 12 million playing quit and the general audience ignored WoW anyway to play games like COD and League.

    Essentially they appealed to a demographic that was never going to play the game anyway, sold out a demographic they had a complete lock on, and destroyed their own game. GG
    People forget that appealing to a more general audience is the reason they got 12 million in the first place. That argument doesn't hold water.

  17. #197
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by AcidicSyn View Post
    You're still complaining about the content inside the vehicle, not the vehicle.
    Nope, actually read my post before you spout more nonsense.

  18. #198
    The Lightbringer Cæli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Forte View Post
    Really? Art is what you're worried about most? No matter how good the game looks, if it feels like shit to play, there's a problem. Gameplay > everything else.
    I'd say both are important! gameplay would hardly take place in a non compelling setup, interest would be lost rather fast, and passion would not shine, but caring about gameplay first is a solid strategy for a business

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    I remember them saying once that wow's art style involved watercolors and stuff like brush strokes.

    As for gameplay, its pretty funny you mention that. They changed the game, which has 12 million subscribers at one point, to more easily work with general audiences. What happened? The majority of the 12 million playing quit and the general audience ignored WoW anyway to play games like COD and League.

    Essentially they appealed to a demographic that was never going to play the game anyway, sold out a demographic they had a complete lock on, and destroyed their own game. GG
    What did they change for a "general audience"? Since Cata the game became tailored for people with huge amounts of time, ending in the endless grinds of Legion, we will see if BfA ends up the same...

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Sure - and if nobody would do those activities, we would see much longer queues...or...lets say like in Legion, towards the end of the x-pac my alts sometimes queued for a World Boss....and no group was happening.

    We are getting a second warzone in Darkshore...but who am I kidding...if I say it indicates that the feature seems to be something players participate in (I am deliberately being neutral here...I don't even use the words "...something that players like"), somebody will jump in and claim, Blizzard is too stupid and they don't listen...or such.
    Given the poor reception of Warfronts, I'd say it IS kind of stupid to double down and release another. They did the same thing with Azerite traits: Just adding more instead of getting rid of it. I get that part of that is because those "Features" were already in the pipeline. But at the same time it something that should have been listened to and caught during beta(and those warnings WERE posted).

    Players WILL do them, but I suspect it's less because they're out and out fun, and more because they're easy rewards. And that's where I think part of the problem arises: The entire philosophy of the content is not based on participation because the content itself is enjoyable or even interesting, but rather people are only doing it for the rewards, for the carrot.

    It's definitely a destination vs journey issue. And it's something Blizzard VERY badly needs to address, or people are going to keep slowly bleeding away from the game.

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