(Loot Box's) Number of child gamblers quadruples in just two years....

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Kids can screw off loot boxes suck as there just sleazy money sink that gives nothing to the consumers. Let me buy what I want even if it’s over priced it’s better then a loot box with a chance to give me garbage instead.

[kail]

I'm not saying to regulate anything though. I never even claimed anything close to that.

But it would be silly to disregard that no matter how well you teach a child, they'll still be tempted is the point of the donut comparison.

Adults are tempted by donuts as well. Maybe the donut simply prevails no matter what.

Better parenting is always the answer right?

How many kids do you have?

If you think EA would ever allow the ESRB to stick an M rating on Fifa or Madden because they have loot boxes you're kidding yourself. The ratings boards as they currently are ain't gonna do shit about it.

I don't see that happening either, at most ESRB or legislation could enforce some warning or notice in the game's cover to let parents know of the micro-transactions available. I've seen games that require Internet connections (like Anthem and Division) have such a notice on the console covers. Providing the knowledge is beneficial while still giving the power of choice to the consumer.

[Krastyn]

I'm a little bit surprised that people are trying to defend loot boxes existence on the premise that "companies need money".

Very few people are defending it because "companies need more money". If you read through the thread most people defend it because they either don't see it as a problem, don't like the path it would lead if you start trying to cherry pick what is "gambling", or don't like the double standard that people are trying to apply to video games while ignoring swaths of real life loot boxes. I fall in the later two.

Like, is it being implied that that games only ever made profit since loot boxes existed? Because you know... The gaming industry has managed 50 odd years without them.

This has been beaten to death in other threads. The costs of creating games is not a flat line. It is also not decreasing. The sell price of a AAA game however, has been flat for almost 20 years. That revenue gap is made up now from MTX's / DLC / subs.

And to add, the reason free-to-play and loot boxes are married together is to potentially dodge legislation. It may seem obvious but consider why Heroes and Overwatch have loot boxes but World of Warcraft doesn't. Having a subscription attached to the game means a contract has been struck. Suddenly, legislation has to be involved to cover risk management and they can't levy the same power they had when there is no contract.

But Warcraft does have loot boxes. Seals are the exact same mechanic as loot boxes. It's gambling because of the mechanics. Gating the number of times you can kill something for a random chance at loot is also the same mechanic as loot boxes. They all follow the same logic and mechanics. If you your stance is that they are different and not gambling, then actual casinos can adopt the same mechanics and they are now no longer gambling establishments. Something is considering gambling based on mechanics and outcomes. So unless you're creating double standards, then WoW definitely has loot boxes.

And let's be realistic, loot boxes are gambling without even the presence of ownership.

If you "win" nothing you aren't gambling. You are spending money to lose it all. There is no risk, only loss. If your "win" is subjective non-monetary value, then that is a deep rabbit hole of activities that would be gambling.

Those other scenarios like, in casinos or printing trading cards all have machine operating and have regulations already in place.

TCG's have some regulations in place about chaser cards, but there are also lots of ways around them. MTG does this by having seasons now. If this is the breaking point, then simply regulate the odds of loot boxes.

You may be quick with "Yes it is coding therefore machinery!" but coding relies solely on human input. Same as you can't specify other variants like what set of cards into what booster pack because it's machine printed and packed.

Coding only requires human input if code it that way. A machine prints and packs cards a certain way because that it how it was programmed and built (by humans). A loot box can be programmed exactly the same way. "Print" a sheet of loot, and then just start dealing out rewards. After X number of rewards have been "rolled", each items Y% chance of being looted will happen. When the sheet runs out, "print" another, or simply loop back to the start.

The government are finally getting involved because companies like EA have been exposed.

Governments are getting involved because governments love getting involved in things if they think it will buy them votes.

[Onikaroshi]

Adults are tempted by donuts as well. Maybe the donut simply prevails no matter what.



I don't see that happening either, at most ESRB or legislation could enforce some warning or notice in the game's cover to let parents know of the micro-transactions available. I've seen games that require Internet connections (like Anthem and Division) have such a notice on the console covers. Providing the knowledge is beneficial while still giving the power of choice to the consumer.

Much like how the original rating system came about though, faced with potential govt regulation the lesser of two evils is to police yourself.

Having ratings wasn't really great for the industry, but the other option was worse

[Collegeguy]

Those EA reps sure squirm under pressure.

[Coldkil]

Holy fuck. They literally said they don't make money from their games? I know, small phrases maybe out of context, but holy hell. It was both hilarious and depressing how they're so disconnected from reality.

[Verdugo]

Holy fuck. They literally said they don't make money from their games? I know, small phrases maybe out of context, but holy hell. It was both hilarious and depressing how they're so disconnected from reality.

They are not disconnected from reality, its just a blatant lying on their part.

[qwerty123456]

They are not disconnected from reality, its just a blatant lying on their part.

Nah they didn't lie. They don't make money. They make fuck tons of money.

[Dhrizzle]

When I buy a mystery box, I am guaranteed a tangible, physical object. With gambling online its blurry, You are not guaranteed anything tangible, just like a slot machine. You are putting in money with the high chance of a "loss" of money. You are making a false equivalence, you just don't understand the subject enough to understand that you are.

They're more similar than you think. Mystery boxes and loot boxes both offer items with a similar nominal value but they may have very different personal value, i.e. both types of box may give you exactly what you want (a win) or something you dislike (a lose.)

If anything physical loot boxes (and similar things like TCG packs) are closer to gambling as it's a fairly straightforward process to exchange the item for cash.

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It's just not worth arguing dude. It's like talking to someone who insists that a grape is the same thing as a banana because they both have seeds then claim "the burden is on you" to prove that they don't both have seeds.

Your analogy isn't doing what you hoped. Whilst there are superficial differences grapes and bananas are both foods, both have a similar function and similar risks, both are subject to the same regulations.

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That's the kind of messy "slippery slope" I worry about with these things... where does it end?

Let the ratings boards handle it, not the gov't, gov't always fucks it up.

The trouble is the ratings boards dropped the ball and instead of addressing consumer concerns they backed up the companies using the boxes. The trouble is instead of going for a consumer protection angle about the predatory marketing practices we have people going full blown moral-crusader with "video games are corrupting our children!" My concern is this will be used to start restricting other potentially addictive aspects of games (see how China restricted how long WoW can be played each day) or as a spring-board for other moral crusades against potentially corrupting influences such as guns and violence.

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Holy fuck. They literally said they don't make money from their games? I know, small phrases maybe out of context, but holy hell. It was both hilarious and depressing how they're so disconnected from reality.

Fortnite is free-to-play so they're not really wrong or "disconnected" to say they don't make money just from people playing their games.

[Jtbrig7390]

Fortnite is free-to-play so they're not really wrong or "disconnected" to say they don't make money just from people playing their games.

Not true, They make money via Marketing By Mouth.

Just because Jimmy doesn't spend money doesn't mean anything Because he told Brad and Brad buy's the cosmetic's.

So just playing the game leads to talking about the game and that leads into more people playing it and more buying shit.

All they did was some PR word play.

The amount of kids coming into my store to buy Fortnite shit is insane, I have nothing against it but lets call a spade a spade here.

[Dhrizzle]

Here's the link to the parliament website - https://www.parliament.uk/business/c...idence-17-191/

A few things I thought were worth noting,

In the gambling part whilst they do recommend following Belgium's example and redefining gambling to include loot-boxes, it's mostly due to concerns over gambling using 3rd-party websites. I think that's more to do with gambling on things like Counterstrike. There's a huge amount of hypocrisy in the way gamers have been criticising EA over loot-boxes but I see very little criticism of Valve who have encouraged much worse systems. They also relate gambling risks to E-sport viewing.

The commission isn't just looking at gambling but "addictive technologies," it seems the moral crusade might hit a lot more than microtransactions with one of the involved groups being concerned about the amount of time young people spend online and the potential for bullying. Prince Harry for example has called for an outright ban on Fortnite.

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Not true, They make money via Marketing By Mouth.

Just because Jimmy doesn't spend money doesn't mean anything Because he told Brad and Brad buy's the cosmetic's.

So just playing the game leads to talking about the game and that leads into more people playing it and more buying shit.

All they did was some PR word play.

The amount of kids coming into my store to buy Fortnite shit is insane, I have nothing against it but lets call a spade a spade here.

Those extra steps you just mention mean they don't make money just from people playing the game. What they objected to is the notion that there is a direct and immediate relationship between someone playing the game and them making money. Contrast it with a non-f2p like Overwatch where (barring promotional times) everyone playing the game will have made a purchase and given money directly to Blizzard, or WoW where people playing will have payed their monthly subscription. Those games have a direct relationship where someone playing means definite money going to the company.

In your example, what was objected to is the notion that Jimmy playing directly generates revenue for Fortnite which isn't true. It's semantics not PR, and I think in the context of that discussion it was important to point out as it explains why they couldn't give a simple answer as to how much money they make from each player or for a certain amount of time played.

[SirBeef]

Are these boxes guaranteed to give you the same value as you pay for them? Like if you box costs you 20 dollars you will get 20 dollars of stuff 100% but with the chance to get more than 20 in some boxes?

That's the only thing I can think of that makes it not gambling.

No. Just because a site/mag says a card or toy is worth a certain amount it has no value unless you can find a buyer. Regardless it's still sanctioned gambling if you will.

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IMO its the ease of access of loot boxes that makes it a little different. You don't have to go to the store and buy the physical item, its just there on a menu like 1 click away at any time.

Amazon/ebay same thing.

[zealo]

Holy fuck. They literally said they don't make money from their games? I know, small phrases maybe out of context, but holy hell. It was both hilarious and depressing how they're so disconnected from reality.

They're not disconnected from reality, it's accountants and lawyers hired by these companies trying to outfox the authorities to make it appear as if they earn less money than they really are.

[Logwyn]

No. Just because a site/mag says a card or toy is worth a certain amount it has no value unless you can find a buyer. Regardless it's still sanctioned gambling if you will.

That really goes for anything really. People buy everything from cards to cars to houses to gold even stocks and bonds with the idea that the price will go up and can be later sold for a profit. It's why magic the gathering cards can be sold the way they are. The initial purchase is between the buyer and seller for real;y pieces of cardboard that the seller has put a price on it. Say 5 bucks. This transaction is a buyer/seller contract for 5 dollars worth of cardboard.

The hope and prayer of the seller to later sell the cards for more than 5 bucks is a secondary market. That the seller of the first transaction we could argue has nothing to do with. They just want you to spend 5 bucks on their cardboard cards. They have no way to regulate the secondary market UNLESS they sold the cards as singles and not blind.

For instance, my wife buys Lego minifigs that are blind purchases. She buys them to collect and let the nieces and nephews play with when they come over. They are 4-5 bucks a figure. She is not "gambling" at all. She is paying 4-5 bucks for a bit of plastic she is getting exactly what she pays for and expecting. A toy to be played with.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Why, the turrets were a good investment.

And I'm sure you could chargeback the card or ticket a refund yeah, but the point is the behavior is still encouraged at that point either way, regardless.

As long as there is something to consume the behavior exist. We can't stop the world for kids my friend.

[Jtbrig7390]

As long as there is something to consume the behavior exist. We can't stop the world for kids my friend.

And we can't allow company's to exploit kids...

Works both ways.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

And we can't allow company's to exploit kids...

Works both ways.

How do you stop them? I think loot boxes are fine combined with direct purchases and they can just do this with any other item. If a kid steals a parents credit card how is that the games fault.

[stellvia]

How do you stop them? I think loot boxes are fine combined with direct purchases and they can just do this with any other item. If a kid steals a parents credit card how is that the games fault.

The problem is not just the existence of the loot boxes. It is that many of the games with them are designed to corral people into buying them. The upgrade cycle is either compromised, and/or things are artificially drawn out to goad players into buying them to skip unnatural amounts of grind/unfun designed with the intention of pushing you towards MTX. *THAT* is what can fuck right off.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

The problem is not just the existence of the loot boxes. It is that many of the games with them are designed to corral people into buying them. The upgrade cycle is either compromised, and/or things are artificially drawn out to goad players into buying them to skip unnatural amounts of grind/unfun designed with the intention of pushing you towards MTX. *THAT* is what can fuck right off.

This is true... I just like being able to gamble and buy what I really want. I've gotten some solid deals from loot boxes and children are going to do dumb shit. With direct purchases or loot boxes. They are just worse adults in everyone way biologically. You can't protect them from everything and mistakes happen. Just give them as many chance as possible and stop trying to hurt everyone with the justification of protecting them.

[stellvia]

This is true... I just like being able to gamble and buy what I really want. I've gotten some solid deals from loot boxes and children are going to do dumb shit. With direct purchases or loot boxes. They are just worse adults in everyone way biologically. You can't protect them from everything and mistakes happen. Just give them as many chance as possible and stop trying to hurt everyone with the justification of protecting them.

There was a great quote about the subject on Reddit. Gambling is restricted to adults and even has the gaming commission to set restrictions on how the odds can be set and how the games can be operated. Lootboxes/MTX are literally as if you sent children into a casino that had all restrictions removed. Many of which are incapable of understanding the manipulation being done to them nor the actual value of the money they are pissing into them. You can't protect kids from everything, but I think intentional psychological manipulation/addiction designed to prey on children is within the wheelhouse.

https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comm...prise/erpniqy/

....What makes things worse is they have free reign to rig the system however they see fit. At least in Vegas you have the gaming commission, who set strict rules to ensure the games are at least somewhat fair for the player, or prevent the casino from rigging the machines on a fixed path of profits.

This also unfortunately also gives these developers full access to their target audience...users in the age range of 7-18 years old, who are by far the most profitable.I recently did a paper on this subject, primarily focusing on how these developers target this age group, and how unethical it is to be attacking such a group when we've already determined them to be unfit to gamble.

It comes down to ethical relativism, if people witnessed a casino full of 7-18 year olds begging their parents for money or blowing their own money on slot machines and black Jack, most people would probably lose their shit and call for action. But the developers have hid this inside of a video game, a thing that most people would consider is appropriate for children and teenagers....