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  1. #641
    Quote Originally Posted by Keeper Stalladris View Post
    No, it isn't. It might be addictive, but that doesn't mean it is meant to exploit people's addictions. Otherwise you could claim that games in general are meant to exploit people's addictions.
    "No, it isn't."... "it might be addictive"... "doesn't mean it is meant to exploit", Kerry Hopkins, is that you?

    Why do you think that most of loot boxes put up a light show whenever you open them? Flashy colors, fancy sounds and pretty animations? Just for the aesthetics of it? There are multiple studies on the psychological effects of sound, light and color in games of chance, it’s nothing new, it’s no coincidence that most of them share this sort of characteristics, that you also happen to find in shit such as online roulette's.

    Also, you can claim whatever you fucking want, regardless how silly it might be, however, games in “general”, don’t profit any further from your addictiveness to them… dude, if you want to defend this sort of practice, just stick to what actually makes sense, “people need to be fucking responsible” and “governments fingering my video games is bad”, that’s all you need to say, which is why the best possible solution for this sort of shit is just having the rating system actually deal with it and let players vote with their wallets from there on.

  2. #642
    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    No, it's not that simple.

    It's that simple only when the age rating for the game is adult only.
    That won't do shit either, I used to slide MA games in between two Es and got away with it every time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boomzy
    People just want to be bullies without facing any sort of consequences or social fallout for being a bully. If you declare X as a racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. person you can say or do whatever you want to them, ignoring the fact that they are a human.

  3. #643
    Quote Originally Posted by UnluckyAmateur View Post
    That won't do shit either, I used to slide MA games in between two Es and got away with it every time.
    Just because a solution isn’t 100% bullet proof, it doesn’t make it useless.

    Take alcohol for example, it’s forbidden to sell it to minors, yet it still happens, because realistically, stores can’t be asking for everyone IDs, and some minors just don’t look like minors at all, some use fake IDs, some will just ask a grown up to buy it for them… does it mean we should legalize the sale of alcohol to minors or that we should ban alcohol ?

    A compromise between the two sides, even if not perfect, is sometimes the best solution.

  4. #644
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myobi View Post
    Just because a solution isn’t 100% bullet proof, it doesn’t make it useless.

    Take alcohol for example, it’s forbidden to sell it to minors, yet it still happens, because realistically, stores can’t be asking for everyone IDs, and some minors just don’t look like minors at all, some use fake IDs, some will just ask a grown up to buy it for them… does it mean we should legalize the sale of alcohol to minors or that we should ban alcohol ?

    A compromise between the two sides, even if not perfect, is sometimes the best solution.
    This is a solid analogy.
    I mean its not even really a matter for debating, despite what people may think. The link is well established, and it is only a matter of time.
    https://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore...d&subId=613669
    There are papers under parliamentary review here about this exact issue.
    Apart from a couple of outliers, the arguments defending this shitty practice fall into either the 'free market uber alles let you kids eat ratsac its the parents fault no regulation rah rah rah' capitalism shills. And a group I am affectionately calling 'the hair splitters' because well we can't make a decision if someone is using a definition that can be dissected. I haven't seen a single actual argument for why loot boxes aren't objectively terrible and probably bad for kids.
    Be that as it may, I laughed till I damn near died when I woke up this morning to see Captain Master-Baiter had been banned.

  5. #645
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    why ppl ignore that what really popularized loot box and made it explode is overwatch ?
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  6. #646
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    why ppl ignore that what really popularized loot box and made it explode is overwatch ?
    Apart from being provably false, it is pretty irrelevant. Which specific game brought this issue to the forefront of people concerns isn't really important. It has become a pox on many many games at this point.

  7. #647
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motso View Post
    Apart from being provably false, it is pretty irrelevant. Which specific game brought this issue to the forefront of people concerns isn't really important. It has become a pox on many many games at this point.
    which game that boomed in popularity and had lootbox from start then ?
    and it is relevant, because loot box system exist since ages in phone games, yet they were ignored since those games were very minor, not respected by gaming community, so it was hard to get addict to in first place because how sh8t they are
    now enter the greediest company on earth (activision, not EA btw), then epic games, then EA, and then it became problem, activision turned it from some sh8t system that was mainly phone based for free games to mainstream 60$ games still milking ppl
    It shows how influential are games now, i know that system exist since age because i used to play a small fun card game on phone, half ppl didn't even know about the loot box idea
    my point is : there are lot of bad shady stuff happens, it only became problem when AAA games adopted it, made mainstream gamers more aproned to gambling, and while i expect the ban hammer very soon on all loot boxing systems, it still need to fix the problem at root : like it or not AAA publishers now have massive influence on society and MUST be controlled to not repeat gambling addiction again

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    Quote Originally Posted by mavfin View Post
    What amazes me is the childlike faith in the government to change anything good about it...
    government hate video games and in general will move against stuff like that, the infamous sub-zero finish was shown in congress and they forced esrb rating, parents are ignorant is not their fault and they did the right thing
    gambling is a real addiction and a very destructive one, if usa moved against violence and they are infamous for allowing blood and limbs on tv but never a nipple, why would they be merciful against gambling ?
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  8. #648
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    government hate video games and in general will move against stuff like that, the infamous sub-zero finish was shown in congress and they forced esrb rating, parents are ignorant is not their fault and they did the right thing
    gambling is a real addiction and a very destructive one, if usa moved against violence and they are infamous for allowing blood and limbs on tv but never a nipple, why would they be merciful against gambling ?
    The ESRB wasn't forced to do anything. They were formed, and the rating system was established, in response to the government snooping around in video games without understanding them. The ESRB rating system is purely a self policing system in place to keep the gov't out.

  9. #649
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    which game that boomed in popularity and had lootbox from start then ?
    and it is relevant, because loot box system exist since ages in phone games, yet they were ignored since those games were very minor, not respected by gaming community, so it was hard to get addict to in first place because how sh8t they are
    now enter the greediest company on earth (activision, not EA btw), then epic games, then EA, and then it became problem, activision turned it from some sh8t system that was mainly phone based for free games to mainstream 60$ games still milking ppl
    It shows how influential are games now, i know that system exist since age because i used to play a small fun card game on phone, half ppl didn't even know about the loot box idea
    my point is : there are lot of bad shady stuff happens, it only became problem when AAA games adopted it, made mainstream gamers more aproned to gambling, and while i expect the ban hammer very soon on all loot boxing systems, it still need to fix the problem at root : like it or not AAA publishers now have massive influence on society and MUST be controlled to not repeat gambling addiction again

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    government hate video games and in general will move against stuff like that, the infamous sub-zero finish was shown in congress and they forced esrb rating, parents are ignorant is not their fault and they did the right thing
    gambling is a real addiction and a very destructive one, if usa moved against violence and they are infamous for allowing blood and limbs on tv but never a nipple, why would they be merciful against gambling ?
    At least as far as the papers submitted to Parliament here it specifically references Fortnight as being the 'first' of the new style of 'hook-loop' pattern loot box reward systems. The f2p aspect combined with the sheer popularity of Fortnight when compared to Overwatch is also part of it.
    But that isn't even to say you are wrong, but what we should know now with any gaming controversy that hits the mainstream it is never really about what was first it is more about what got noticed by the non gaming public/parents.
    I don't know which was first, but I do know that Fortnight was the first one to be named as an issue here specifically.

    Its not even quite as simple as lootboxes as a whole, as you quite rightly observe, they have existed in one form or another for years. It is the newer style ones seen in the AAA games you mention that are pushing the line between a simple randomized reward and an actual system that is deliberately making use of the features that cause the pokies to be such a fuckin scourge.

  10. #650
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keeper Stalladris View Post
    This was literally available to kids. You would buy coins from the fair with real money, put them in there, then win coins and you'd use them to redeem them for prices. This was all available to kids and still is and no one is batting an eyelash. We still have these things. Why don't you go and get those things "regulated"?
    Cigarettes were also available to kids, are you going to argue against regulation here too?
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  11. #651
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    Quote Originally Posted by mavfin View Post
    What amazes me is the childlike faith in the government to change anything good about it...
    Suppose it depends on the government really. I enjoy the idea that any mention of government regulation is immediately childlike faith. Nobody thinks its going to be dealt with well. Its more like the faith you have in a really flaky mate offering you a favour. Its probably gonna be useless but at least they are trying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Cigarettes were also available to kids, are you going to argue against regulation here too?
    The idea of things being regulated seems to really bother some people just on principle. Reminds me of Ron Swanson from Parks and Recreation.

  12. #652
    Parents are to blame if they can't properly teach their kids to stay away from gambling, IMHO.

  13. #653
    Quote Originally Posted by Popastique View Post
    Parents are to blame if they can't properly teach their kids to stay away from gambling, IMHO.
    Still doesn't ok company's to exploit kids...
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  14. #654
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    Still doesn't ok company's to exploit kids...
    What about smoking then? Or alcohol for that matter? It all should be banned then, so poor kids are all safe ... OR make parents actually raise their kids instead of slacking off.

    P.S. I wonder where kids get that much money for all that gambling

    Parents ...

  15. #655
    Quote Originally Posted by Popastique View Post
    What about smoking then? Or alcohol for that matter? It all should be banned then, so poor kids are all safe ... OR make parents actually raise their kids instead of slacking off.
    You mean the two things that is regulated and you must be 18 for smokes and 21 for alcohol to buy in the US?

    You really should pick better things as a example if your trying to prove me wrong.

    Slap a AO or M ranting on games that has loot box's, Problem fixed. At that point its 100% on the parent.
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  16. #656
    Everything that you enjoy doing and can repeat is addictive and triggers the same brain areas every time you do it. Duh.

    What's next? Outlaw great (ADDICTIVE) gameplay? Time wasted is much greater concern than money. Think of the children for fuck's sake!

    Regulate your kids if you want regulation.
    All right, gentlemen, let's review. The year is 2019 - that's two-zero-one-nine, as in the 21st Century - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of robed sissies.

  17. #657
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    You mean the two things that is regulated and you must be 18 for smokes and 21 for alcohol to buy in the US?

    You really should pick better things as a example if your trying to prove me wrong.
    Do not know about USA, maybe it is really that strict in your country. But tons of kids here in Ukraine, and yes - kids of 11+ years old, often buy alcohol and cigarettes via different ways. And in the end the parent is to blame.

    I find it really strange to blame companies for gambling issue when the real culprit is out there, avoiding simple responsibility of explaining their kid what is wrong and what is right.

  18. #658
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    Quote Originally Posted by mavfin View Post
    What amazes me is the childlike faith in the government to change anything good about it...
    Industry had tools to regulate itself, but it decided that all that cash swag money from gambling addicts now is worth repercussions later. Seriously, just slap an 18+ label on all mobile games and games with lootboxes in general - done, blame shifted, problem "solved", just like with tobacco and/or drinking - "it's not our problem that your kid somehow got drunk, we don't sell to minors, probably human error by an expendable worker" line of defense

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    Quote Originally Posted by Motso View Post
    The idea of things being regulated seems to really bother some people just on principle. Reminds me of Ron Swanson from Parks and Recreation.
    At least Ron was funny this way. Seeing this in real life is just something
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
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  19. #659
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    Quote Originally Posted by Popastique View Post
    Parents are to blame if they can't properly teach their kids to stay away from kidnappers, IMHO.
    Cool, nice to know we're still blaming the wrong people here.

  20. #660
    Quote Originally Posted by stellvia View Post
    Numbers out of UK put instances of kids being admitted to counseling for gambling addiction had quadrupled over the last 2 years.
    Which doesn't prove anything when it includes a timeframe that saw the deregulation of highstreet gambling machines and a massive advertising push to brand gambling as cool and sophisticated (with tiny footnotes telling people to gamble responsibly.)

    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Imagine defending loot boxes in video games...

    whether you care about children or not loot boxes are a plague to video games and have fucked the industry up tremendously, why would any self-respecting gamer want them?
    It's not about saying whether loot-boxes are good or bad (like most micro-transactions I care very little either way) but there is skepticism about whether we want the government regulating video-games over fears they may be harmfully addictive and affect people's behaviour in real life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kromtar View Post
    The biggest difference to TCGs I see is if you want a specific card you can just trade for it or buy it directly from someone who opened a pack instead of gambling on getting it yourself randomly. With loot boxes you can't trade duplicates to other players making the gambling mechanic the only possible way to attain something specific.
    The fact that TCGs have an easy exchange mechanism that includes cash values makes them closer to gambling than loot-boxes, when Pokemon cards were at their height of popularity there were concerns that they were essentially a lottery.

    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalName View Post
    An example of a predatory consumer practice in a game, would be to intentionally match make people who haven't bought equipment or power with real money VS people who have, as to create an underlying need and incentive to make the non payer buy equipment or power.
    The "predatory consumer practices" are the way loot-boxes and other micro-transactions are being pushed in games. Personally I don't think loot-boxes are any more gambling than TCGs but the way some games market them is akin to a Magic The Gathering sales rep going around playgrounds and selling packs to kids immediately after they lost a game. There are some pretty strong regulations about how TV advertising is allowed to show products for kids or during kid's programs but these don't follow over into video games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myobi View Post
    "No, it isn't."... "it might be addictive"... "doesn't mean it is meant to exploit", Kerry Hopkins, is that you?

    Why do you think that most of loot boxes put up a light show whenever you open them? Flashy colors, fancy sounds and pretty animations? Just for the aesthetics of it? There are multiple studies on the psychological effects of sound, light and color in games of chance, it’s nothing new, it’s no coincidence that most of them share this sort of characteristics, that you also happen to find in shit such as online roulette's.

    Also, you can claim whatever you fucking want, regardless how silly it might be, however, games in “general”, don’t profit any further from your addictiveness to them… dude, if you want to defend this sort of practice, just stick to what actually makes sense, “people need to be fucking responsible” and “governments fingering my video games is bad”, that’s all you need to say, which is why the best possible solution for this sort of shit is just having the rating system actually deal with it and let players vote with their wallets from there on.
    This is also a pretty good argument for banning games like WoW which use "sound, light and colour" to trigger a response that could be addictive.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Motso View Post
    At least as far as the papers submitted to Parliament here it specifically references Fortnight as being the 'first' of the new style of 'hook-loop' pattern loot box reward systems. The f2p aspect combined with the sheer popularity of Fortnight when compared to Overwatch is also part of it.
    But that isn't even to say you are wrong, but what we should know now with any gaming controversy that hits the mainstream it is never really about what was first it is more about what got noticed by the non gaming public/parents.
    I don't know which was first, but I do know that Fortnight was the first one to be named as an issue here specifically.

    Its not even quite as simple as lootboxes as a whole, as you quite rightly observe, they have existed in one form or another for years. It is the newer style ones seen in the AAA games you mention that are pushing the line between a simple randomized reward and an actual system that is deliberately making use of the features that cause the pokies to be such a fuckin scourge.
    The thing is F2P Fortnite doesn't have loot-boxes, the Parliamentary commission is looking into addictive/immersive games as potentially harmful regardless of microtransactions including calls to outright ban the game or place restrictions on how long people are allowed to play.

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