(Loot Box's) Number of child gamblers quadruples in just two years....

[Jtbrig7390]

And that's why nothing will change. The game industry isn't taking an L that big because politicians and parents want to be ridiculous and put mtxs next to porn games.

Doesn't matter if the game industry likes it or not. It will take awhile but ether games will get labeled or governments will just outright make it illegal.

[Dextroden]

Doesn't matter if the game industry likes it or not. It will take awhile but ether games will get labeled or governments will just outright make it illegal.

And things that aren't gambling?

(Remember. The story everyone decided to jump on doesn't involve lootboxes. So, no AO rating for just having mtxs. Unless EVERYTHING is gambling now. :|)

[Jtbrig7390]

And things that aren't gambling?

(Remember. The story everyone decided to jump on doesn't involve lootboxes. So, no AO rating for just having mtxs. Unless EVERYTHING is gambling now. :|)

I'm perfectly fine if MTX's was behind a age gate. Also part of the story was a kid buying fifa card packs those are loot box's.

As it stands Governments are only looking at loot box's as well.

[Dextroden]

I'm perfectly fine if MTX's was behind a age gate. Also part of the story was a kid buying fifa card packs those are loot box's.

As it stands Governments are only looking at loot box's as well.

And by focusing on "gambling", you completely trap yourself on only doing lootboxes.

So, what term are we pulling out since we're protecting the children? (Even though digital downloads and leaving cards with no password protection on mobile will still be a problem.)

[Varitok]

Bullshit. Parents need to stop shirking responsibility on this topic.

Companies sell things. Including things aimed at kids. If you gave a child access to infinite money, they'd buy $1000 in Pokemon card packs at the store, too. Which is why generally know better than to give kids access to unlimited funds in any situation.

This is common sense to everyone. No one would ever actually do this. But now they just connect all their money to their phone, hand the phone to the kid, and then act like, "HOLY CRAP THIS WAS TOTALLY UNFORSEEABLE!!!" when the kid spends money.

It's nonsense.

You have to love when people are 100% defending greedy, scumbag companies and blaming parents at every single turn. Absolutely mindboggling the lengths people go to defend billionaires, it would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

[Dextroden]

You have to love when people are 100% defending greedy, scumbag companies and blaming parents at every single turn. Absolutely mindboggling the lengths people go to defend billionaires, it would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

I'm enjoying learning how game companys use vodoo magic to force people to buy things.

The pricing of mtxs are scummy, but it's not their fucking fault if someone does this. Is it Apple's fault if a dumb kid racks up an 800 dollar iTunes bill? Did gambling make that happen?

[PkMMchmp19]

I don't really get why people have suddenly started taking this big moral stand about fucking Overwatch loot boxes and bringing up "The children, the children..." as if skins in boxes are actually ruining their lives. Just because some people in the gaming community are whiny bastards over not getting the skin they wanted and wanted to blow it out of proportion, I guess.

Meanwhile there's still actual gambling out there that's completely accessible to minors - and in the gaming community - but no one really bothers with that in the gaming community because they don't actually give a fuck about "gambling", they're just being bitchy about loot boxes in their games.

Um, that sounds like someone profiting from loot box gambling. Would it be even thought it's gambling if the exact list of what is contained was right on the box?
No. It is the unknown aspect that proves this is gambling. You don't know what you'e getting, you don't know all the odds and like a scatch off ticket, I paid before I could scratch it. The game manufacturers know exactly what they're doing and they don't like government or we the people figuring out what they're doing.
So we have defenders coming up with all sorts of deflection and weird comments trying to justify gambling in game. And of course, people will throw in the "you don't have to do it" defense. Of course not, but millions do. And thats the millions the game manufacturers want to keep in the dark and paying.

[Monster Hunter]

Any form of cash purchase random chance box needs banning from video games full stop.

And I don't care if EA crashes as half there revinue disintegrates, that company is scum and any one who works form them are scum by association.

Luckly governments are starting to see this and many other toxic and anti Co sumer practises in the gaming industry as issues, so the big profit from psudo gambling days of gaming company's are numbered.



- - - Updated - - -

And people like you would get in the way of physical purchases and you have my respect for that. But a kid who can spend 3k on mtx can easily buy a digital copy of FIFA.

And LOL. You might get some support for M (which wouldn't fix shit, just make parents more culpable) no one is supporting AO because that's a fucking death sentence in gaming.

AO games typically don't get shelf space.

You don't make the parents responsible, that never fixes anything, though I agree there are Lax parents.

If you want to fix a problem fast you hit what actualy counts, the money and in this case that's the company, you make the company responsible if a child plays there game under age. Do that and watch how bloody guickly the problem gets solved.

[Coldkil]

-snip-

I'll just say that because something exists in a way, doesn't mean it cannot be changed/regulated and we should just deal with it. Alcohol has been banned in the past with bad results and now it's heavily regulated (again, results may vary).

From your post i get you are a fan of microtx and invest on them so you don't see anything wrong in them. For me it's the exact opposite and i don't think we'll ever agree but it's still been a talk worth doing.

I don't have the competence to get into legal talk, but things can and will change for sure. May take quite a lot of time though and likely not in a way i hope/like. I will deal with it.

EDIT: i fully agree on the part that ESRB should be doing its job, but given how they're in the hands of game companies, i don't see it doing any better in the future until government is involved.

EDIT2: a more clear labeling and a MTX parental lock would be a good start. If a kid spends money without supervision but parents didn't bother to set the lock on, then that's their fault.

I would go into the broader "MTX are making so much revenue that publishers have no reasons to make quality games anymore" argument, but this is not what we're discussing here.

[Polly3685]

I'll just say that because something exists in a way, doesn't mean it cannot be changed/regulated and we should just deal with it. Alcohol has been banned in the past with bad results and now it's heavily regulated (again, results may vary).

From your post i get you are a fan of microtx and invest on them so you don't see anything wrong in them. For me it's the exact opposite and i don't think we'll ever agree but it's still been a talk worth doing.

I don't have the competence to get into legal talk, but things can and will change for sure. May take quite a lot of time though and likely not in a way i hope/like. I will deal with it.

EDIT: i fully agree on the part that ESRB should be doing its job, but given how they're in the hands of game companies, i don't see it doing any better in the future until government is involved.

EDIT2: a more clear labeling and a MTX parental lock would be a good start. If a kid spends money without supervision but parents didn't bother to set the lock on, then that's their fault.

I would go into the broader "MTX are making so much revenue that publishers have no reasons to make quality games anymore" argument, but this is not what we're discussing here.

I think you would be hard pressed to find someone who likes MTX or thinks they are good for the gaming industry. The reason people are arguing is because they are tired of shitty parents getting a pass and people thinking the government should solve the problems.

I'm super liberal but I don't think this is an issue where any government needs to be involved. MTX are no more gambling that a stuffed animal claw machine. From going through this thread it appears Belgium is the only country that has taken that route and it appears things are being discussed in the UK. This is one issue where a free market could completely solve the problem. If people stop paying for MTX and buying games that use them and they will go away. It's not the governments job to stop this so that developers will make "better" games.

Parents should be actually looking at the games their kids play, not just going by the ESRB rating. What one person, or group of people, think is ok for your child doesn't mean you will agree. It is the parents job to parent not the government. Technology is here to stay. Parents who didn't grow up with it need to educate themselves on how it works and what their kids have access to. Stop shoving video games, tablets and cell phones in kids faces so you don't have to parent. Stop saving credit card info to consoles, pcs, and cell phones that children use. Children ARE NOT walking into brick and mortar stores with thousands of dollars to buy physical cards to use on in game stores. If they steal a credit card there are already laws in place to take care of that. Credit card companies also deal with charges that are made on a stolen card. If you are unwilling to report that your card was stolen because it was your child, again not the government's concern. Be a better parent and your child won't be a thief.

I'll repeat what I started with. No one likes MTX but until consumers stop supporting the market it is always going to be there.

[Eosia]

I really wish people would stop using the word "predatory" when they mean "just selling shit".

Because then it would not fit their agenda.

If I place an order on Amazon, does Amazon know that I'm not a child using someone's credit card? I mean, there's rules and statements saying that I have to NOT be a minor, but clearly parents are disregarding those. So is it Amazon's fault if a child is logged onto my account and orders $5000 worth of shit?

Does not even have to be the account. Remember the Amazon Dash buttons? There have been all sorts of stories about kids pressing them over and over again resulting in the ordering of multiple of the same item such as a bottle of laundry detergent. Amazon does not know who is pressing it. They did acknowledge a problem though with multiple orders so there now is a limit that no new orders are accepted/processed until the previous one is delivered. But they still do not know who is pressing the button.

Hell, with Alexa a person discovered that their African Grey parrot was mimicking their voice and had been ordering things via Alexa.

[Khaza-R]

I wonder if baseball cards caused a “quadrupling” of child gamblers too.

Same exact premise.

[Onikaroshi]

EDIT2: a more clear labeling and a MTX parental lock would be a good start. If a kid spends money without supervision but parents didn't bother to set the lock on, then that's their fault.

I mean... every time I see "My kid spent $X on a mobile game and I'm broke!" I can't help but laugh.... I'm not 100% sure with itunes but with google play the default is to require a pw with EVERY purchase, so either they're disabling that for "ease" or giving kids the pw or a finger scan.

[Vash The Stampede]

I think you would be hard pressed to find someone who likes MTX or thinks they are good for the gaming industry.

I heard @Edge- loves them or isn't bothered by them.

I'm super liberal but I don't think this is an issue where any government needs to be involved. MTX are no more gambling that a stuffed animal claw machine. From going through this thread it appears Belgium is the only country that has taken that route and it appears things are being discussed in the UK. This is one issue where a free market could completely solve the problem. If people stop paying for MTX and buying games that use them and they will go away. It's not the governments job to stop this so that developers will make "better" games.

Free markets rarely make things better. In fact, they usually make things worse. Look at it like this, micro-transactions and consequently loot boxes are aimed towards children. These children may not realize what's going on even when they're adults, as they've been conditioned that gambling mechanics are OK. These people may not even know that this system is doing nothing to benefit them. That's where you get the government involved and pass laws and regulations to fix this.

The only way the free market can fix this is if there's financial motivation to not have micro-transactions in games. For the life of me, I can't imagine a method to make more money in a game without micro-transactions. Yea you and I know that micro-transactions are bad but the millions of teenagers and children playing Fortnite would disagree. You know when breast physics were "accidentally added" and that sent Epic into a panic, that's how you know that Fortnite is definitely catering to young adults or children.

Parents should be actually looking at the games their kids play, not just going by the ESRB rating. What one person, or group of people, think is ok for your child doesn't mean you will agree. It is the parents job to parent not the government.

And when they become adults that are still addicted to instant gratification and gambling? That's their problem, not the governments problem? You know the reason why we have a government is to make sure the people in our society don't get screwed. Why not let crack or cocaine be a problem the free market can fix? Better yet cigarettes where the free market introduced vaping and now there's propaganda that says that's worse than smoking.

Technology is here to stay.

That's a huge stretch to call micro-transactions and loot boxes a technology. That's like me saying the wheel is a technology.

[Onikaroshi]

I heard @Edge- loves them or isn't bothered by them.

I'm really not bothered by them, sometimes it's nice to just sit down with a free game when you only have a little bit of time and those wouldn't exist like they do today without MTX.

I play a lot of phone games in times when i can't be near a pc.

[Popastique]

I heard @Edge- loves them or isn't bothered by them.

I am playing AC Odyssey at the moment which has tons of MTX but i am not bothered by them. Because they are useless and i am not buying any of them. Why would you be bothered by something you are not forced to use or buy?

[Polly3685]

You really like misrepresenting what I said apparently...

I heard @Edge- loves them or isn't bothered by them.

I never said anything about people being bothered by MTX. I said you would be hard pressed to find someone who likes them or thinks they are good for the industry. That's a pretty big difference.

Free markets rarely make things better. In fact, they usually make things worse. Look at it like this, micro-transactions and consequently loot boxes are aimed towards children. These children may not realize what's going on even when they're adults, as they've been conditioned that gambling mechanics are OK. These people may not even know that this system is doing nothing to benefit them. That's where you get the government involved and pass laws and regulations to fix this.

The only way the free market can fix this is if there's financial motivation to not have micro-transactions in games. For the life of me, I can't imagine a method to make more money in a game without micro-transactions. Yea you and I know that micro-transactions are bad but the millions of teenagers and children playing Fortnite would disagree. You know when breast physics were "accidentally added" and that sent Epic into a panic, that's how you know that Fortnite is definitely catering to young adults or children.

You seem to be under the assumption that only sellers make up the market and control what happens in them. Consumers make up 50% of the market and if they choose to stop purchasing and supporting games that use MTX the market will go away. We both know that isn't going to happen but it isn't to governments place to do anything about it.

Not all MTX have a random aspect and even the ones that do aren't gambling. It's no more gambling than a stuffed animal claw machine, arcade, or collector cards. As far as being aimed at children that's a load of crap also. MTX are aimed at gamers, not 1 specific demographic of gamers. A quick google search will show that only ~21% of gamers are under the age of 18. So does that mean that they gaming industry is only marketing MTX to them and ignoring the other 79%?

And when they become adults that are still addicted to instant gratification and gambling? That's their problem, not the governments problem? You know the reason why we have a government is to make sure the people in our society don't get screwed. Why not let crack or cocaine be a problem the free market can fix? Better yet cigarettes where the free market introduced vaping and now there's propaganda that says that's worse than smoking.

There is no benefit to most things people do for entertainment outside of that, entertainment. You don't need laws or regulation to make sure you are getting something more out of the things you choose to do with your leisure time and the money you spend on it. It is not the governments job to dictate how and when people spend their money. It is the parents job to monitor how their children are spending money they are given and especially that children are not racking up tons of money on their parents credit cards or draining their bank accounts with debit cards. Nice hyperbole with the drugs and cigarettes analogy. There is a huge difference in a Philip Morris claiming that cigarettes do not harm to you, when they in fact cause cancer, and gaming companies putting players and skins in loot boxes. Again no one is saying MTX are a good thing but it doesn't mean they need government regulation. Parents need to do their jobs.

That's a huge stretch to call micro-transactions and loot boxes a technology. That's like me saying the wheel is a technology.

Your reading comprehension seems to be lacking also. I didn't say or even imply that MTX are technology. Many people in this thread have tried to bypass parental supervision by making the excuse that parents don't know their credit card data is/was saved on a device or site because they didn't grow up with the tech. It's a lame ass excuse either way you look at it but it does make a point that people who are unfamiliar with the tech their kids are using need to learn about it and what it's capable of before giving it to their kids.

[Vash The Stampede]

I'm really not bothered by them, sometimes it's nice to just sit down with a free game when you only have a little bit of time and those wouldn't exist like they do today without MTX.

I play a lot of phone games in times when i can't be near a pc.

Micro-transactions make sense with free games but to be honest those games shouldn't exist. Better to make a good game that's fun than to make a just barely fun game with addictive mechanics. The mobile market needs to address the perspective that mobile games are crap, and therefore deserve no money. Doesn't help that 99% of games are free and depend on micro-transactions to make a profit. Make good games and make mobile phones and tablets with built in physical controls.

I am playing AC Odyssey at the moment which has tons of MTX but i am not bothered by them. Because they are useless and i am not buying any of them. Why would you be bothered by something you are not forced to use or buy?

One of the reasons I won't touch AC Odyssey is Ubisoft's reputation for grindy mechanics, and these micro-transactions seem to depend on that grind for sales. As a PC user I can easily get around them with mods and cracks, but I don't feel like fixing what is ultimately broken by design.

[qwerty123456]

I wonder if baseball cards caused a “quadrupling” of child gamblers too.

Same exact premise.

Kids never had a cash market for baseball cards, adults did. Maybe some rich kid bought a poor kids cards from him once but it was 99% trading cards and the entire market was adult who either wanted to sell thier shit from when they were a kid or wanted to collect cards they never got.

Also baseball cards didn't make it seem like you need to buy them and use other tricks to get you to buy thousands of dollars in them then make a new set that makes the other cards obsolete in two years.

[Onikaroshi]

Micro-transactions make sense with free games but to be honest those games shouldn't exist.

That's not really for you to decide.

I have plenty of fun in the mobile games I play honestly, or I wouldn't play them. I even play some of them on android emulators on the PC.