(Loot Box's) Number of child gamblers quadruples in just two years....

[Keile]

Then. You. Buy. The. Toy. You literally can buy only the toy at mcdonalds. If you buy a meal for just the toy, without asking for the specific one, then you're just an idiot. That still doesn't make it gambling.

Actually...


If you buy the meal in hopes of getting a specific toy...you are gambling.
Things like that are even triggers for Compulsive Gamblers as it gives them the same dopamine rush as pulling the lever on a physical slot machine. Some have even relapsed over what some may consider "silly" things like a gentlemens bet...there is no exchange of money and nothing to lose, but it still gives them that same rush and can actually cause them to spiral back into their old habits.

To someone who has a gambling problem, the act of gambling is NOT spending money, it is NOT getting the reward (if it were, addicted gamblers would stop as soon as they started to lose, but this is not the case as most will gamble even after they have lost EVERYTHING). It is the UNKNOWN that time period between placing the bet (even if it is an unspoken one with THEMSELF such as which toy they pull from a Happy Meal) and seeing the actual outcome.

Some people have it so bad they can't even eat M&M's anymore, because they make personal bets about which color they will pull next...But those are extreme cases. Very rare.

But unless you actually have training and experience with gambling and gamblers in general....I don't expect you to fully understand. It's an addiction that flies under most peoples radars, and is actually worse than Drug or Alcohol addictions with how insidious it is and how strong it is (not my words, even.....those are from the mouths of multiple clients who have HAD those other addictions as well). It is also hard to detect in someone.

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So are you saying, for example, that Actiblizzard/EA/whoever are working directly with billion dollar gaming corporations to implement game design systems?

The dopamine effect of video game reward systems predate loot boxes. This is just a another avenue for video game companies to reel in the cash after initial sales.

As someone who works in the field of assisting addicted gamblers....

Yes, yes they are doing this on purpose. They know it is addicting by nature and know that while most people WONT have an issue, there is a crowd who WILL and that crowd will give them BILLIONS of dollars.

And on that note, I know a few recovering Gambling addicts who cannot play many video games due to so many systems in them basically being gambling in one form or another. You just don't realize it is, as you don't have a gambling problem. Those smaller things aren't of a concern, most people don't see them as gambling so they dont cause an issue. But Loot Boxes, for example, operate with the EXACT SAME systems as a Slot Machine. They use the same damn methods to get people hooked, even. Offering Free Plays now and then...flashy lights and sounds when you "win", etc etc.

[Coombs]

Most people here seem to just have a problem with microtransactions in general. Not with the random aspect of lootboxes. If they outright sold skins in games like Overwatch, you would still complain that they are greedy.

That's how you make lootboxes ethical. Lootboxes are earned through leveling or playing the game, and direct purchases of desired items happen for money. Even then I'd rather purchase a product and play that product without MTX nonsense.

Games some decades before were created to be cool or fun. Now the first step in game design is to create the positive feedback loops, tinkering here, putting a bottleneck there, and maximizing addiction. The blueprints to games are created with microtransaction design in an infinitely more complex slot machine, with much better graphics. Why are stories so horrendous these days in games? Because story means fuck all. The story is thin, unnecessary, and only exists as a piece of the glitter. Strip away the graphics, take away the moving from point A to B, and all you have is a fancy slot machine. MTX aren't something tacked on at the end with the fallacious statement of "well we still have to pay our artists and might as well just get work out of them". Every piece of the design is to exploit the consumer to purchase more than any sane person would pay for the outright box price.

This is the point where I can agree with game developers. We have long had the magic 60 for the price of nearly all games. Witcher 3 was a $100 or more game. GTA V was as well, and so is RDR2. But other games, even the small games sold for $40 are nothing more than bargain bin material. But people are tricked into paying $60 for a game and then seduced into leaving that 100 hour gaming experience $300 in the hole, or far far worse.

[Deleted]

That's how you make lootboxes ethical. Lootboxes are earned through leveling or playing the game, and direct purchases of desired items happen for money.

I mostly play Blizzard games. What other games are out there for which that isn't the case?

[Malikath]

And with that you've basically just killed all digital trading card games, since TCGs are BASED off random boxes, good job.

that's not a bad thing, that entire "market" needs to be beaten into hamburger.

[Keile]

I mostly play Blizzard games. What other games are out there for which that isn't the case?

A lot of games tease you with sparse freebies. Destiny 2, for example, was a huge offender early on. They did a special event...like OW did. But you got maybe 3 "free" boxes during this event and had to BUY any others. At least OW throws them at you free like crazy. They are still predatory by nature, they just handle it in a better way than most do.

[Coombs]

I mostly play Blizzard games. What other games are out there for which that isn't the case?

That isn't how it goes, but that should BE how it goes. Lock cosmetic items behind RNG boxes so that grinders can earn it for free, but allow people to purchase the cosmetic directly for $5 or something. Instead of now where they trickle in lootboxes and if you pay you just buy more lootboxes.

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that's not a bad thing, that entire "market" needs to be beaten into hamburger.

Right? Hearthstone is a well made game visually, balance is shit, but Hearthstone has a superior UI and board environment with stone cards. However, Hearthstone is in no way a game that should pull in a billion dollars. I only give MTG a pass because you own the cards and can recoup the value a little, even if the physical trading card games are just as fucking scummy. Hearthstone once you quit you just have some rented out account where you spent several thousand dollars keeping up with the expansions that you can never sell. Even cars give you more value, and car value diminishes exceedingly fast. Virtual card games are an awful business model and should be destroyed.

[Th3Scourge]

Actually...


If you buy the meal in hopes of getting a specific toy...you are gambling.
Things like that are even triggers for Compulsive Gamblers as it gives them the same dopamine rush as pulling the lever on a physical slot machine. Some have even relapsed over what some may consider "silly" things like a gentlemens bet...there is no exchange of money and nothing to lose, but it still gives them that same rush and can actually cause them to spiral back into their old habits.

To someone who has a gambling problem, the act of gambling is NOT spending money, it is NOT getting the reward (if it were, addicted gamblers would stop as soon as they started to lose, but this is not the case as most will gamble even after they have lost EVERYTHING). It is the UNKNOWN that time period between placing the bet (even if it is an unspoken one with THEMSELF such as which toy they pull from a Happy Meal) and seeing the actual outcome.

Some people have it so bad they can't even eat M&M's anymore, because they make personal bets about which color they will pull next...But those are extreme cases. Very rare.

But unless you actually have training and experience with gambling and gamblers in general....I don't expect you to fully understand. It's an addiction that flies under most peoples radars, and is actually worse than Drug or Alcohol addictions with how insidious it is and how strong it is (not my words, even.....those are from the mouths of multiple clients who have HAD those other addictions as well). It is also hard to detect in someone.

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As someone who works in the field of assisting addicted gamblers....

Yes, yes they are doing this on purpose. They know it is addicting by nature and know that while most people WONT have an issue, there is a crowd who WILL and that crowd will give them BILLIONS of dollars.

And on that note, I know a few recovering Gambling addicts who cannot play many video games due to so many systems in them basically being gambling in one form or another. You just don't realize it is, as you don't have a gambling problem. Those smaller things aren't of a concern, most people don't see them as gambling so they dont cause an issue. But Loot Boxes, for example, operate with the EXACT SAME systems as a Slot Machine. They use the same damn methods to get people hooked, even. Offering Free Plays now and then...flashy lights and sounds when you "win", etc etc.

I'm not doubting that they put these in these addictive dopamine loops into games but I was specifically questioning the collusion between gambling industries and the gaming industry

[Deleted]

That isn't how it goes, but that should BE how it goes. Lock cosmetic items behind RNG boxes so that grinders can earn it for free, but allow people to purchase the cosmetic directly for $5 or something. Instead of now where they trickle in lootboxes and if you pay you just buy more lootboxes.

That's how it is for Blizzard games.

So there's nothing wrong with the random element of lootboxes.

[Keile]

I'm not doubting that they put these in these addictive dopamine loops into games but I was specifically questioning the collusion between gambling industries and the gaming industry

It's less Collusion and more the Video Game industry seeing how much money the Gambling Industry makes with those mechanics and wanting to emulate it.

So less working together, more....envying what the other has and wanting to cash out.

[Deleted]

I don't really see what the problem is. If companies offer something like this, and you don't like it, just don't buy it. The problem would solve itself, but apparently most people are ok with it. Which is good, because that means more games are made because companies have more money to make games. Games nowadays are incredibly expensive.

[Necroxis]

That door has been slowly opened ever since you can buy little packs of cards / stickers in hope to one day complete an album. I had my first way back when I was 13 or so..you know..collect stickers and complete all the players in all soccer teams that compete in the major league in your country. Then there were Trading Card games etc.

Fair enough to ask for a ban of lootboxes...tying this to Blizzard is short sighted, it is just the next step. Panini and companies like that will also have to stop it and basically go out of business (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panini_Group).

The government stopping it for kids..fair enough. The moment those kids are 18 however, the government is there with their own gambling schemes. Just another double standard

When did I ever say it was just Blizzard?

[Necroxis]

Exactly. I trust governments even *less* than I do game publishers.

Children aren't "choosing" to become gambling addicts. Predatory gameplay devices are being used to trick them into becoming them.

[Deleted]

Children aren't "choosing" to become gambling addicts. Predatory gameplay devices are being used to trick them into becoming them.

Conspiracy theories aren't allowed here.

[Necroxis]

Conspiracy theories aren't allowed here.

Great. It's not one. And there's science backing up the claim.

[ro9ue]

Yes, they are.

Their popularity is quite different compared to lootboxes in video games - hence to problem isn't as large.

Card packs are way more common than loot boxes, there are sports trading cards as well.

There are two major differences:

A) in cases of TCGs, you are guaranteed particular rarities

B) in the cases of all card packs, you are getting physical items that you have complete freedom to sale and trade as you see fit. With video game loot boxes, it's gambling real money for random chance at pixels you don't even own, they exist on a server somewhere, so it's a completely closed system.

[Puupi]

Card packs are way more common than loot boxes, there are sports trading cards as well.

There are two major differences:

A) in cases of TCGs, you are guaranteed particular rarities

B) in the cases of all card packs, you are getting physical items that you have complete freedom to sale and trade as you see fit. With video game loot boxes, it's gambling real money for random chance at pixels you don't even own, they exist on a server somewhere, so it's a completely closed system.

Comparing TCG's and loot boxed is like comparing a regular lottery ticket bought from a kiosk to lottery ticket bought online.

They aren't any different - unless you think all digital goods aren't real either.

[ro9ue]

Comparing TCG's and loot boxed is like comparing a regular lottery ticket bought from a kiosk to lottery ticket bought online.

They aren't any different - unless you think all digital goods aren't real either.

They are different.

[George Costanza]

Its fucking hilarious that people still think battlefront 2 has lootboxes.

Also lootboxes are always bad, a system where you get ingame credits that you can use on skins or cosmetics in a game that you payed for is fine, (overwatch is a shit thing that could be solved quite easily using a superior model, but due to blizzards greed they wont coz they dont care about players anymore)

[Puupi]

They are different.

The lottery/gambling part of them isn't.

[ro9ue]

The lottery/gambling part of them isn't.

No, but in the ways that makes one more okay than the other.