(Loot Box's) Number of child gamblers quadruples in just two years....

[Usagi Senshi]

Games did just fine without resorting to free to play game mechanics to make more money on top of what they already make from DLCs/etc.

So they get the box sale, dlc sale, season pass sale, and now lots of recurring free money at the cost of how the game used to operate mechanically before this nonsense took hold a couple years ago.

I've no issue with any of this if they didn't charge jack shit for the game itself while chasing those FTP style profits, but we know these dickheads would never do that. They want that cake and all your money too, so fuck them.

If a company can't survive they way it used and has to resort to Korean MMO style slot machine and leveling bullshit, let them die IMO. Or go make FTP MMOs and fuck off on those since you like em so much.

[Goldfingaz]

I just enjoy people who are arguing the philosophy of gambling rather than trying to figure out what is "Right" vs what is "wrong", and even then it comes down to philosophy. You can pretty much tell who picked the popcorn courses through school by reading posts going "Well, everything is gambling then" followed by an awful comparison. (Philosophy is a popcorn course, it's what slackers took because it's easy and fills a credit.)

One of the arguments I struggle with is the physical mystery boxes like "Loot Crate". In Canada we had "Nerd Boxes" (I do believe they have since shut down) and I bought a couple months worth because of their themes. You were guaranteed things like a T-Shirt, and other little things. I felt this was less like gambling because I knew I was at the very least getting something worth the money spent.

Move onto loot boxes, and we'll use Black Ops 4 as the example since everyone is on the EA train. Currently their loot boxes while you can earn them without purchasing them, you can purchase them and there's a chance you can get a sticker in which you can use for an emblem or maybe even spray it on the ground or a wall (SO COOL!..jk) or you can get a gun that is better than most of the other guns (What's even worse is, you can get duplicates of what you already have, 3 duplicates = 1 guaranteed item you don't have, and the quality of duplicates you get play no factor, you can get something super rare as a duplicate then get a sticker as a reward for getting three dupes).

So lets compare the two... Loot crate - "I didn't get the T-Shirt I wanted", am I going to go buy another loot crate? No I can just buy that T-Shirt. Black ops 4 reserve case "Dang I got this weapon charm for this pistol I never use." am I going to buy another loot crate? Well maybe because there is no other way to obtain the item other than loot crates., and thus this is where my issue comes into play. When you completely restrict items behind this system, that's where the issue rears it's head. Sure you can earn the crates without paying for them, however it's at an incredibly slow rate and the chances are you won't gain all items from those crates during the current "Season" and then you will have the next season's items also in the mix, snowballing it and causing way too many items and hurting your chances further. It's designed to give you a taste and get you to buy more.

Personally I do not agree with loot boxes, I will buy them once in a while as a "Meh why not?" same as casinos, I'll go in once a year maybe just for a "why not?" deal. I lose out on both and I remember why I don't do it and move on. Not everyone has that type of willpower however. No one is going to buy thousands of dollars worth of Mystery Crates to get that one T-Shirt they want, no they will move on and just buy that T-shirt, not everyone is going to spend thousands on kinder surprise for a specific toy, instead they will just buy a toy.

"It's a slippery slope, what else will the government be able to regulate in our video games?" - A terrible argument, people are simply asking the government to enforce gambling regulations. Video games don't miraculously get you around regulations already in place.

[Exeris]

Yet another “why not both” kind of shit, of course parents need to take responsibility for their kids, and teach them moderation, but they are still kids, they are going to do dumb shit regardless and it’s impossible for a parent to spend every minute of the day with them, thus why we have a bunch of laws and regulations around minors.

I find it strange that so many in here struggle to understand something so obvious.

[Goldfingaz]

I find it strange that so many in here struggle to understand something so obvious.

It's typically because they don't have children, or don't have friends with children.

[Dhrizzle]

"It's a slippery slope, what else will the government be able to regulate in our video games?" - A terrible argument, people are simply asking the government to enforce gambling regulations. Video games don't miraculously get you around regulations already in place.

That's not true, especially in the context of this thread which is using the UK as an example. It's already been determined that loot-boxes don't fall under gambling regulations here. The parliamentary commitee (which caused this thread to resurface) is looking into expanding gambling regulations to cover loot-boxes, cracking down on 3rd-party websites that use loot-boxes for real-money gambling (presumably something to do with Valve and Couterstrike,) investigating the connection between watching e-sports and underage gambling, asking companies what lengths they take to restrict the amount of money players can pay and how long they play for, looking into how online gaming connects with bullying and in general the harm that "addictive and immersive technology" can do to children, including citing Prince Harry's call for Fortnite to be outright banned for the amount of time it encourages children to play.

[Jtbrig7390]

If parents can't spend time with their kids and raise them properly, why bother having kids in the first place?
Not company's fault for sure. Spend time with your children - problem solved.

spoken like a person who has never raised a kid.

Hate to break it to you but no matter how much time parents are with kids or how much they teach them kids will still do dumb shit. No point in the history of mankind has a kid grown up perfect and done nothing dumb.

So back to what I said your of the opinion of fuck parents and its ok for company's to exploit kids because fuck parents.

[Goldfingaz]

That's not true, especially in the context of this thread which is using the UK as an example. It's already been determined that loot-boxes don't fall under gambling regulations here. The parliamentary commitee (which caused this thread to resurface) is looking into expanding gambling regulations to cover loot-boxes, cracking down on 3rd-party websites that use loot-boxes for real-money gambling (presumably something to do with Valve and Couterstrike,) investigating the connection between watching e-sports and underage gambling, asking companies what lengths they take to restrict the amount of money players can pay and how long they play for, looking into how online gaming connects with bullying and in general the harm that "addictive and immersive technology" can do to children, including citing Prince Harry's call for Fortnite to be outright banned for the amount of time it encourages children to play.

It's almost as if laws and regulations never change with the times.

[Popastique]

spoken like a person who has never raised a kid.

Hate to break it to you but no matter how much time parents are with kids or how much they teach them kids will still do dumb shit. No point in the history of mankind has a kid grown up perfect and done nothing dumb.

So back to what I said your of the opinion of fuck parents and its ok for company's to exploit kids because fuck parents.

There is a big difference in what you call dumb shit, or better say - level of dumb shit. Breaking something inside the house, or lying about your grades - that is one level of dumb shit. But spending hunderds of $ on video games with parents knowing and having no repercussions is on completely another level. Especially considering that parents are lending that money to their kid and not controlling how he/she spends it.

So my opinion is still the same, be better parents - otherwise it won't be just video games gambling, but something far worse ahead ...

[Dhrizzle]

It's almost as if laws and regulations never change with the times.

Yeah, but you said no-one was asking for regulations to change, just for existing ones to be enforced.

[Soikona]

So parents who fuel their kids with pocket money but do not guide their kids in right direction are not to blame? Cool ....

No, they are not. I was handed my money and told that it’s my money, spend it how I like. I made my mistakes with money and learnt from it. Now I own a business based on business accounts and an advisory director for another!

[Goldfingaz]

Yeah, but you said no-one was asking for regulations to change, just for existing ones to be enforced.

I said nothing of the sort. I said:

"It's a slippery slope, what else will the government be able to regulate in our video games?" - A terrible argument, people are simply asking the government to enforce gambling regulations. Video games don't miraculously get you around regulations already in place.

Gambling is already restricted, and these are very much a source of gambling. I said earlier, I wasn't going to argue the philosophy on what you feel is gambling or isn't. It is gambling, bottom line as the definition of gambling is: the activity or practice of playing at a game of chance for money or other stakes.

Other stakes being the rewards inside of the loot box.

Cya.

[quras]

I'm not shcked to hear this.

Companies more and more want to prey on developing minds and feed the addictive nature of gambling. It's a complete psychological game for game companies and how they work temptations to increase a money stream. Simple business move that has gotten greed over the years.

It's one of those cases that it simply cannot be parents faults given for years and years people have been taught drugs are bad but dammit if we don't have drug addicts come through the ER on a daily basis and not just the worst addicts either. So there is no parental teaching that is addict-proof and it gets worse when gaming companies work hard on that temptation and addictive nature of gambling mixed into gaming.

This is an issue that needs regulation just like gambling. It's all to easy for game companies to change the odds behind the scenes and manipulate the entire situation without the player ever knowing. Working the odds to never work for the gamers. Gambling needed regulations to stop crap like that from happening and I've become a believer that so do game companies and the way they have worked the loot boxes.

[Onikaroshi]

Slap a AO or M ranting on games that has loot box's, Problem fixed. At that point its 100% on the parent.

I agree, this is the ONLY option, anything else will result in a much worse situation since it'll mean the Gov't has gotten involved.

[Krastyn]

I just enjoy people who are arguing the philosophy of gambling rather than trying to figure out what is "Right" vs what is "wrong", and even then it comes down to philosophy.

Most people aren't arguing the philosophy of gambling. They're arguing the literal definition of it. Laws don't have morals. They don't have a philosophy.

One of the arguments I struggle with is the physical mystery boxes like "Loot Crate". In Canada we had "Nerd Boxes" (I do believe they have since shut down) and I bought a couple months worth because of their themes. You were guaranteed things like a T-Shirt, and other little things. I felt this was less like gambling because I knew I was at the very least getting something worth the money spent.

Yet a company selling a loot box is making a profit, much like a casino. The fact that you're getting "something" while still taking a financial loss is irrelevant.

Move onto loot boxes, and we'll use Black Ops 4 as the example since everyone is on the EA train. Currently their loot boxes while you can earn them without purchasing them, you can purchase them and there's a chance you can get a sticker in which you can use for an emblem or maybe even spray it on the ground or a wall (SO COOL!..jk) or you can get a gun that is better than most of the other guns (What's even worse is, you can get duplicates of what you already have, 3 duplicates = 1 guaranteed item you don't have, and the quality of duplicates you get play no factor, you can get something super rare as a duplicate then get a sticker as a reward for getting three dupes).

So eventually you will get everything possible out of the loot box.

Loot crate - "I didn't get the T-Shirt I wanted", am I going to go buy another loot crate? No I can just buy that T-Shirt.

1. Can you actually buy that T-shirt on its own? Maybe it only comes from that box?
2. Also completely irrelevant. The fact that you can buy something outside of the gambling action does not invalidate the gambling action.

If Best Buy held a loot box which could contain anything from a USB cable to a 90" 4k TV, would that be ok since you could just buy the TV itself? In Canada, that would be a no.

Sure you can earn the crates without paying for them, however it's at an incredibly slow rate and the chances are you won't gain all items from those crates during the current "Season" and then you will have the next season's items also in the mix, snowballing it and causing way too many items and hurting your chances further. It's designed to give you a taste and get you to buy more.

And you might not get everything from that month's loot box either.

No one is going to buy thousands of dollars worth of Mystery Crates to get that one T-Shirt they want, no they will move on and just buy that T-shirt, not everyone is going to spend thousands on kinder surprise for a specific toy, instead they will just buy a toy.

But people will spend thousands of dollars on TCG's, and have for decades.

"It's a slippery slope, what else will the government be able to regulate in our video games?" - A terrible argument, people are simply asking the government to enforce gambling regulations. Video games don't miraculously get you around regulations already in place.[/QUOTE]

They don't magically get around it. The regulations as worded do not apply. The UK specifically says you have to win money, or something that can easily be converted to money. Most loot boxes don't allow you to do that.

Out of curiosity, if you were a law maker and could define gambling, what would your definition be?

[Polly3685]

You mean the two things that is regulated and you must be 18 for smokes and 21 for alcohol to buy in the US?

You really should pick better things as a example if your trying to prove me wrong.

Slap a AO or M ranting on games that has loot box's, Problem fixed. At that point its 100% on the parent.

That's an ignorant statement. It doesn't matter what rating is on the outside of the package. The parents are still 100% responsible to monitor what their children are doing/playing.

- - - Updated - - -

Not as much as the companies giving them access to the gambling. Saying that it's parents fault for not teaching their kids to not gamble is like saying it's the parents fault if a child gets kidnapped because they didn't teach them not to trust strangers. Could the parents have done more? Probably. Are they responsible? FUCK NO

Loot boxes aren't bought with quarters little moron Timmy found at the bottom of his piggy bank. They are bought with credit cards tied to consoles and accounts. The parents are completely responsible for EVERYTHING their children do. That includes using their credit cards to buy loot boxes.

[Goldfingaz]

Out of curiosity, if you were a law maker and could define gambling, what would your definition be?

Thankfully I'm not a law maker, nor does one single person make laws but rather a team of people.

I would classify loot boxes as online gambling as you're playing a game of chance with money for a potential gain, whether it's cosmetic or not. Why? Because there's no arguing that people become addicted to the results. The other issue is the audience that it is designed for. Gamers, of all ages. It wouldn't be so bad if it were only adults and you could enforce it but the company should have to be licensed and regulated like all other online gambling places (At least ones here in NA, I'm not 100% familiar with the UK but I believe they all have to be licensed as well, they are way more pro-online gambling than here).

Honestly, I couldn't see why anyone would support this method beyond tinfoil hats going "Well what else will the government do?!?".

[BeepBoo]

It has become a pox on many many games at this point.

If people actually felt that way, they'd stop being idiots and buying them. Good luck with that one, though. People are too weak to resist the urge to spend money on something they want, even if it's comparatively a bad value and they know it in their head.

[Polly3685]

Really? If you drop your kid at school, and something happens to him, is it the parent fault?

Also, again, then what are alcohol and cigarettes regulations for?

You people keep arguing on fucking extremes, it's bloody ridiculous.

We're not talking about a kid having and accident and getting hurt or someone kidnapping them. Don't be intentionally dense.

These kids aren't buying loot boxes for Call of Duty while they are at school. They are doing it when they get home, log into their Xbox that has their parent's credit card info saved to it and going to town. All because their parents are too lazy to watch what the kid is doing or to weak willed to say no. Either way it's the parents problem.

Alcohol and cigarettes are deadly. Children are not the ones responsible for making decisions regarding their health. It is perfectly legal (at least where I live) for a minor do drink in the company of a guardian. I'm unsure if cigarettes work the same way.

[Goldfingaz]

While is true that there is a difference between a video game and it's monetization, we already know what governments are cable of doing towards video games, completely banning video games or forcing companies to censor them is nothing new, but it's something I wouldn't like to become common, so yes, I completely respect the people and their tin foil hats wanting the government to just stay the fuck away.

To me it seems silly. The government can literally regulate everything you do now, and yet no one is really complaining all that much because they really aren't infringing on any of your actual rights.

Banning or censoring video games is nothing new you're correct and only done in extreme situations. How in the world will this increase if they ban gambling models within games? If this was an issue, there would be a lot more mainstream banned games already but that's not the case. I assure you, if this was going to happen it would have based on one simple mission in a video game "No Russian."

So, no the tinfoil hat helps nothing, other helping exploit people via gambling models.

Unless you live in a Country like China or Germany....

[segara82]

Loot boxes aren't bought with quarters little moron Timmy found at the bottom of his piggy bank. They are bought with credit cards tied to consoles and accounts. The parents are completely responsible for EVERYTHING their children do. That includes using their credit cards to buy loot boxes.

Actually they are. Notice all those nice and brightly coloured cards you can buy in nearly every store? You know which cards i'm talking about.
The one that in exchange for your nickel and dimes gets you credit in any online-store that offers them. Like for PSN, XBox-Services, Nintendo Shop or the good old Bliizard Gift/Balance Card.