(Loot Box's) Number of child gamblers quadruples in just two years....

[Tech614]

its joke because usa standards for violence is different than most world

This literally has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Every other rating systems has a rating between 13 and 16. ESRB literally jumps from 12 to 17 with no inbetween at all. No one is talking about the culture differences and tolerance, and let's not steer this topic into areas it wasn't intended with replies like this. there are games that are perfectly fine for 15/16 year olds that get slapped with an M and also plenty of games that are questionable for a 12 year old that get slapped with a T. Because they drift to the closest one and have this massive fucking gap in their ratings.

[Onikaroshi]

Most parents these days are gen-Z and millennials so it's not like they're technologically illiterate and it shouldn't be too hard to ensure parents have some system of verification or notification on their smartphone.

Hahaha, dude, my grandmother is more technologically adept then some of the gen-Zers and late millenials I've seen. We have this 25 year old guy I work with who can't figure out anything tech wise, he couldn't even install printer drivers.

The early millenials who grew up with the computer, the ones in their 30s, are the ones who are tech savvy. The mid 90s+ millenials and the gen-Zers get everything handed to them and can't do simple tech things.

[Tech614]

Hahaha, dude, my grandmother is more technologically adept then some of the gen-Xers and late millenials I've seen. We have this 25 year old guy I work with who can't figure out anything tech wise, he couldn't even install printer drivers.

The early millenials who grew up with the computer, the ones in their 30s, are the ones who are tech savvy. The mid 90s+ millenials and the gen-xers get everything handed to them and can't do simple tech things.

This is true, while boomers and other older gens aren't the most keen on tech it's usually just because they're too old and stubborn to learn/care. Gen Zers and maybe even late millennials literally don't even know how to exist without a phone holding their hand through life. Learn your way around town? Nah, let GPS handle it for you. Hungry? Have alexa order dinner. Phone messing up? Well shit panic, get to the store and buy a new one ASAP instead of actually trouble shooting anything.

It's that generation that is truly fucked if anything bad ever happens. 80s-early 90s kids seems to be the happy medium of people that can both use technology well, and also exist and problem solve without it holding their hands.

[Onikaroshi]

This is true, while boomers and other older gens aren't the most keen on tech it's usually just because they're too old and stubborn to learn/care. Gen Zers and maybe even late millennials literally don't even know how to exist without a phone holding their hand through life. Learn your way around town? Nah, let GPS handle it for you. Hungry? Have alexa order dinner. Phone messing up? Well shit panic, get to the store and buy a new one ASAP instead of actually trouble shooting anything.

It's that generation that is truly fucked if anything bad ever happens. 80s-early 90s kids seems to be the happy medium of people that can both use technology well, and also exist and problem solve without it holding their hands.

Just now realized I put X instead of Z /facepalm, but you got it.

I seriously worry about the future of the world when those people take over... It's a seriously real 1st world problem.

[Goldfingaz]

No you didn't, you quoted the BBC website. At no point in the report they are referencing do the gambling commission say that they currently consider loot boxes to be gambling. The commission made their position clear in a report from 2017.





If nothing else I hope I've shown the importance of going to a primary source if possible and not relying on news reports that could be flawed for a miriad of reasons.

It doesn't matter so much whether you and I consider gambling, loot-boxes and other forms of addiction and compulsion connected to video games. Elected law-makers in the UK are currently inquiring into anything that could be considered "immersive and addictive" technology including loot boxes, gambling simulators and games like Fortnite with their non-loot-box microtransactions..

https://www.gamblingcommission.gov.u...018-Report.pdf

Search loot box, it's in the PDF. I'll give you a hint, Page 6 and "Online participation" if they did not believe it was a form of Gambling they would not consider it a part of online gambling. Welcome to 2018 and thanks for playing.

[Onikaroshi]

https://www.gamblingcommission.gov.u...018-Report.pdf

Search loot box, it's in the PDF. I'll give you a hint, Page 6 and "Online participation" if they did not believe it was a form of Gambling they would not consider it a part of online gambling. Welcome to 2018 and thanks for playing.

You do realize they're not calling it Gambling in that right? They're relating it TO gambling but not directly calling it gambling, it's even after a paragraph discussing "gambling style games" like Zynga poker or some shit.

[Dhrizzle]

You do realize they're not calling it Gambling in that right? They're relating it TO gambling but not directly calling it gambling, it's even after a paragraph discussing "gambling style games" like Zynga poker or some shit.

Yes because -

Where a product does not meet that test to be classed as gambling but could potentially cause harm to children, parents will undoubtedly expect proper protections to be put in place by those that create, sell and regulate those products. We have a long track record in keeping children safe and we are keen to share our experiences and expertise with others that have a similar responsibility. Whether gambling or not, we all have a responsibility to keep children and young people safe.

They're monitoring loot box participation in case it correlates with gambling problems in which case they need a change in gambling regulations, or if it causes similar problems and another agency needs wholly new regulations. The fact is without a change in the law loot-boxes will not fall under the juristiction of the gambling commission.

[Orange Joe]

I'm sure it varies state to state. I have no idea what they are locally anymore. When I started working at 16 I could pull 40 hr/wk in retail without breaking any labor laws. Not that I always got that many.

This is Michigan laws

Maximum Hours of Work for Minors

Working hour restrictions limit how many hours a minor may work per day, and per week.
For Minors Under 16:
8 hours of work per day and 48 per week are permitted during a schoolweek. The 48 hours include combined hours of work and school (work is permitted outside of school hours, no earlier than 3:00 pm, Monday - Friday).
For Minors Ages 16 and 17:
10 hours of work per day, 48 per week, up to 6 days per week are permitted when school is not in session. During the schoolweek, up to 24 hours may be worked.
Notes: A minor under 16 years shall not be employed in an occupation subject to this act for longer than a weekly average of 8 hours per day. Mich. Comp. Laws Ann. ? 409.110. Administered by Michigan Department of Education.

https://www.minimum-wage.org/michigan/child-labor-laws

Sucked trying to work while in school.

[Jtbrig7390]

You don't even need to go that far, if I remember correctly @Jtbrig7390 works in a gamestop, ask him what may happen if he sells a +18 rated game to a minor.

Just a small correction its 17+..

But to answer your question, You will be fined and fired if you are caught selling a M rated title to a minor. The fine can range between $500-$1500 and there is no second chance.

(The punishment and chances can very per state/company). It isn't a law in most (if any) states but it is policy in every single company/store that sells games, But the punishment can very per company.

[Orange Joe]

Just a small correction its 17+..

But to answer your question, You will be fined and fired if you are caught selling a M rated title to a minor. The fine can range between $500-$1500 and there is no second chance.

(The punishment and chances can very per state/company). It isn't a law in most (if any) states but it is policy in every single company/store that sells games, But the punishment can very per company.

Weren't you saying kids are going to do stupid stuff no matter what? How will this stop them? All it does is mean they have to get a friend that is 18+ to buy the game for them. Or their parent, I mean if the parent doesn't care they are spending 100's on "gambling" why would they care about a M rating?

[Jtbrig7390]

Weren't you saying kids are going to do stupid stuff no matter what? How will this stop them? All it does is mean they have to get a friend that is 18+ to buy the game for them. Or their parent, I mean if the parent doesn't care they are spending 100's on "gambling" why would they care about a M rating?

It removes the responsibility from the company to 100% the parents. Also don't know what state you live in or the store you buy from but in mine you can't just get a friend to do it.

It must be a parent/guardian.

By ur logic we should remove age laws from buying alcohol and cigarettes cause they can just get a "friend" to get it.

[Orange Joe]

It removes the responsibility from the company to 100% the parents. Also don't know about the state you live in or the store you buy from but in mine you can't just get a friend to do it.

It must be a parent/guardian.

How you gonna stop them? If they are 18+ why wouldn't they be allowed to buy the game. Same as how it happens with cigarettes/alcohol right now.


I personally think it already is 100% on the parent. Don't see why we need laws from the government to make it more so.

[Jtbrig7390]

How you gonna stop them? If they are 18+ why wouldn't they be allowed to buy the game. Same as how it happens with cigarettes/alcohol right now.

I personally think it already is 100% on the parent. Don't see why we need laws from the government to make it more so.

By not selling it to them? Its not hard to realize Jimmy 14 year old's dad isn't the 19 year old with a ID. But hey what do I know It isn't like I run a store that sells games or anything........

Like with literally all laws, The intent isn't to stop something 100%. By ur logic there should be no laws because it doesn't stop something 100%

[Orange Joe]

By not selling it to them? Its not hard to realize Jimmy 14 year old's dad isn't the 19 year old with a ID. But hey what do I know It isn't like I run a store that sells games or anything........

Like with literally all laws, The intent isn't to stop something 100%.

Um... You do know the kid can wait outside right?

[Onikaroshi]

By not selling it to them? Its not hard to realize Jimmy 14 year old's dad isn't the 19 year old with a ID. But hey what do I know It isn't like I run a store that sells games or anything........

Like with literally all laws, The intent isn't to stop something 100%. By ur logic there should be no laws because it doesn't stop something 100%

I mean, any smart person isn't going to bring the young kid in, this is how I used to buy beer for my brother.

[Jtbrig7390]

Um... You do know the kid can wait outside right?

And that's not the problem of the store or the company.

Friends can also trade stuff to each other or just give each other stuff. Once again and repeat after me here with literally all laws, The intent isn't to stop something 100%.

[Orange Joe]

And that's not the problem of the store or the company.

Friends can also trade stuff to each other or just give each other stuff. Once again and repeat after me here with literally all laws, The intent isn't to stop something 100%.

What % are we looking for? Why wouldn't an awareness campaign for parents work better while not enacting more laws that could be twisted and do more harm than good?

[Jtbrig7390]

What % are we looking for? Why wouldn't an awareness campaign for parents work better while not enacting more laws that could be twisted and do more harm than good?

How could a law that makes it where if a game has gambling in it you must be a adult to buy get twisted?

Its very clear cut...

Once again by ur logic there should be no laws because they don't work all the time.

[Krastyn]

The law can simply state that online gambling isn't allowed unless licensed and regulated properly, and believing loot boxes within games are gambling.

You're missing the point. If you're considering loot boxes gambling whether they are online or not is irrelevant. Or you would be making Hearthstone gambling, but Magic The Gathering ok.

There is no set value for TCG cards, Kinder Surprise Toys, Monthly Loot Cart items, or Dollar store surprise bags. There is however value attached to items within games such as call of duty blackops 4.

You keep changing your definition of "value". A Blackops 4 item has ZERO real world value supported through EA. Magic The Gathering used to have (and may still have) a magazine offering prices of cards. Almost every comic shop around me will pay cash for cards. They 100% have value. It's not a set in stone value, but it is way, way easier to convert it into actual cash.

In one post you'll complain about how evil it is when they put items only in loot boxes, but then when they they offer it as a stand alone purchase you argue about how now the item magically has value and that's why it is gambling. Be consistent.

In Kinder Surprise, TCG, Monthly loot crates or surprise bags you get exactly it's worth, unless someone else deems it's worth more.

And in blackops 4 loot crates, you get exactly that. Nothing. You can't sell it for anything, even if someone thinks it is worth more.

WoW Seals and RNG loot from WoW, legit dumbest thing brought to the table, congratulations.

A loot crate gives you a random chance at an item.

A Seal gives you a random chance at an item.

You just spoke about how BO:4 loot crates cost X points, which can be earned in game, or purchased for real money.

Seals can be purchased for gold, which can be earned in game, or purchased for real money.

Literally the same mechanic. The frequency and ease with which you can do it does not matter. What does is the mechanics, and they are identical.

Ok may as well just legalize all things that can be addictive by this logic. "Other things are addictive but not illegal", cool. We're not talking about those things right now, we're talking about these things.

Did I say that? Did I argue that? No. You're building a nice strawman though. You're saying it should be illegal because it's addictive. I'm saying that isn't reason enough. Addiction alone is not a reason to ban something.

Again, stupid argument. "They can find ways around it so who cares?" a loop whole pops up and you close it. Typically loop holes aren't really there when making things entirely illegal as there are teams of people ensuring it, and if one does popup they close it again, problem solved.

Again, thanks for completely missing the point. Maybe take some time to comprehend what is being said. Words have meaning. It isn't as easy as saying "all loot boxes are gambling, any game with them must be legal age". It goes way deeper than that, with way more nuance.

There legitimately is no other argument, not that I see no other argument. "I like it!" isn't a reason neither is "I don't care". There is a huge issue right now with impressionable children (Please note impressionable children have always been a problem hence age limits on smoking/drinking/GAMBLING etc) and out of sight gambling.

.

Once again, just because you dismiss something as illegitimate does not make it so. Evidence needs to be presented. Middle ground can be found.

Literally posted a quote where the commission said loot-boxes were gambling.

You literally do not know the own source material you are quoting. It does not say anywhere that loot boxes were gambling. I will point out a few tidbits of information from the report:

Overall, based on the description provided, 54% of 11-16 year olds were aware that it is possible to pay money or use in-game items to open loot boxes/crates/packs to get other in-game items within the game you are playing, and 31% had ever used in-game items in this way.

So at best, 31% have ever opened a loot box. This alone to me is a meaningless stat since they lumped people who paid money OR used in game currency. They should have broken it down, as the vast majority of games allow you to purchase loot boxes with in game currency.

Here are two more tidbits:

Overall, 3% of 11-15 year olds had played any National Lottery game in the past seven days, a slight decrease from 4% in 2017, and 10% had played any National Lottery game in the past 12 months.

Rates of online gambling remain relatively low, with only 1% of 11-16 year olds spending their money to gamble online in the past seven days, and only 5% having done so in the past 12 months.

So in the last 12 months, twice as many kids have bought a Lottery ticket as have done any kind of online gambling. Wouldn't it be more effective to focus on all those addicted lottery players since there are way more of them than loot box buyers?

- - - Updated - - -

How could a law that makes it where if a game has gambling in it you must be a adult to buy get twisted?

How would you propose a company verify someone's age for an online game or app?

[Tech614]

How you gonna stop them? If they are 18+ why wouldn't they be allowed to buy the game. Same as how it happens with cigarettes/alcohol right now.


I personally think it already is 100% on the parent. Don't see why we need laws from the government to make it more so.

Actually if there is a kid with the customer and they don't look like the parent that is pretty much store policy to not sell to them. So what are they going to do? They're gonna tell you to get the kid's parent.

Hell pretty sure in some regions it's even store policy to not sell digital currency to a kid if they tried and failed to buy an M rated game from you. It's not as easy as you think, nor are most kids smart enough to wait outside they're usually paying some 17+ teen 5 bucks and supervising the whole thing for them Seen this shit many times more then a decade ago and pretty sure it's no different now.