View Poll Results: Should Holy get a rework?

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  • No

    75 28.85%
  • Yes

    185 71.15%
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  1. #81
    It's a yes for me. I loved MoP healing so much. Between Holy Radiance and Eternal Flame coupled with Divine Purpose I use to top meters in the pve content I did, and made me unstoppable in pvp. You could just keep as many people hotted with EF as possible, use HR to build holy power, and just pass your beacon around and watch the healing flow in. If you needed to burst heal you had wings and FoL spam or Divine light if you were a little short on mana. Bring back MoP healing and I'll be a happy boy.

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  2. #82
    Herald of the Titans CptEgo's Avatar
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    Legion was the best thing that has ever happened to holy, it made it unique and less similar to other specs. They could change the mastery though for sure.

  3. #83
    Tbh, we were a bit OP in Legion, even with trash Mastery. But the synergy with our artifact and traits made it OK.

  4. #84
    If holy paladins were to have a rework, i'd really love it if they went with the design of WotlK Holy. I don't know what holy was like in tbc/vanilla, but in WotlK i raided as one on all difficulties, and it was so much fun. Why? Because it was incredibly satisfying to cast massive holy lights you basically built your paladin around stat wise, and with great gear especially it was so nice to have so much mana regen that you could pump them out left and right, and to get to that point was an achievement in itself.

    Also, you'd still need to manage your mana and carefully use divine plea, take care of the gcd of judge (i remember 1 wrong gcd and the tank was dead), use your utility spells and so on. Which as a whole package made it really fun. The moment i dropped the spec was with the introduction of holy power, and many additional healing spells which may have given more variety, but ended up taking away the extreme single target healing power of the paladin, which made it so unique to play for me compared to other healers.

    In BFA, i get what they wanted to design with the Hpala, being a melee healer etc.. However it just feels terrible to play, because 1 holy light or even a buffed flash of light feels so weak, it barely moves the healthbar even right next to someone if it isn't a crit (in pve) or you're using a cd. The fact you have to stand in melee also feels very odd as a healer, even if it fits the fantasy well. I feel it's important to have a good view of the battlefield as a support, and minimize harm to yourself as much as possible so you can focus on others, and if you stand clumped with all the melee, pets and the normally huge boss you can't really see that well what's going on on top of being vulnerable to quick, dangerous dmg like cleaves, because you also have to constantly pay attention to health bars.

    In range you usually have more time to move and easier time planning for incoming dmg. Disc seems to do a much better job in the design as a dps healer, and i'd say it is partly due to the fact they can do all their magic in range which makes it much more fitting for a healer. I think it would be better if they gave disc the spotlight in that regard, and gave paladins very limited dps options for range and melee, and let them focus on their strength as a single target healing powerhouse with big defensive cd's and supporting buffs that can make up for their aoe healing throughput weaknesses, whether they are in range or melee.
    Last edited by Miena; 2019-02-03 at 07:19 PM.

  5. #85
    Herald of the Titans CptEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smag View Post
    I've stopped doing M raids (or any raid for that matter) in Legion when the M+ picked up steam, so my judgement on raids is limited if non-existent.

    But, Holy in M+ sucks so bad it's not even funny. My main Hpally since TBC is rotting in alt-limbo since the start of BfA and I just can't with it's clunky ass mechanics.
    I think there is probably 1 Holy Paladin in Top 300 on RIO, and I'm not about to subject me or my group mates to the horror that is trying to heal up necrotic on 15+ or higher. HPS outside of CDs is low, tank healing, of all things, is shit.

    Yeah, I think we need a rework. Yesterday.
    What? Holy is great in M+ dude. Are you not using beacon of virtue?

  6. #86
    "What? Holy is great in M+ dude. Are you not using beacon of virtue?"

    Sorry, couldn't miss this one xD This talent was the last nail, before I abandoned my vanilla hpala in 5 man content the moment it was introduced, imposed and rejected by my insides. Making a spec viable in aoe and specifically myth+ (which is bread and butter nowdays for ppl who don't have much time for raiding) only when using 1 specific talent is dumb and lazy as hell. For me it is clunky (gcd and 7 sec window) and ruins the basic beacon-based gameplay which was a HPala-only trick (passive main target support while healing other party members). I'd much rather have talented AoE heals like holy priest or talanted buffs to LoD (reduced/removed CD and improved heal, target numbers). Paladin is no longer the one and only viable tank heaelr, also tank healing itself is less important these days. So why not give Hpala spammable AoE healing all other healers have? I know many paladins who also hate this gameplay and they have only 2 options - be banned from seriuos myth+ and quit or play it and hate it. Again, putting viablity if the spec in 1 freaking talent is nonsence. For now, Hpala is, at best, the worse version of a MW on single target and the last place in AoE. The utility it brings these days is IMO vastly overrated and niche in most content. Without decent healing capabilities, throughtput aside CDs and specific talents/traits paladin won't pull it out with average utility only.

    On the topic. I'd like them to finish what they started (a full size melee healer concept) or totally rework (revert the changes to WotLK/Cata/Panda model). At the moment Paladin is in the middle of the road - melee caster healer with supbar tools and mechanics for his role.
    Last edited by Neyo; 2019-02-15 at 05:21 PM. Reason: additions

  7. #87
    While I don't enjoy the overall style of Holy atm, Avenging Crusader is by far the most fun CD I've ever experienced. Seeing large numbers in terms of damage and healing when smorking with melee abilities is just so satisfying for me. Having holy become another dps-healer is definitely in the air for design, but I know it will be rough to balance.
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  8. #88
    The Lightbringer Niwes's Avatar
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    i never signed for being that much of a melee healer. so, yes.

    and our mastery sucks as hell.

  9. #89
    Change the mastery and I'll be happy with my holy pally for another expansion.

  10. #90
    I loved holy during cataclysm. Having 3 different healing spells, holy radiance (I liked both iterations of it, but if I had to choose one I'd choose the second variant since our current mastery basically replicates the concept of the first).

    I also loved it during wotlk. The difference between the two is in wotlk we had 2 main healing spells, usually defaulted to one based on our build (crit holy light or mp5 flash of light). I preferred the crit holy light, and I'd love for that style to come back where we regen mana based off when a spell crits. I'd also love 100% beacon back, it was strong for sure, but I think taking it away instead of balancing around it was wrong. I picked a holy paladin in TBC because I liked being the defacto tank healer. In wrath that was even more so. I know people complained about not having AoE healing like druids, priests and shamans, but that never bothered me.

    The current iteration of holy paladin just is bleh. Even in legion it was bleh. I didn't play holy paladin during MoP and WoD since I was so in love with mistweaver, but when they changed mistweaver (for imo the worse) during legion, I went back to holy paladin. In legion I liked it more than bfa, the problem is we lost a lot of what was in our artifact and legendary items. Things that should be azerite traits.

    Honestly take out beacon, and we just become a simplified version of a holy priest I feel. Our kit completely revolves around holy shock then beacon. I don't mind either, just give us more and make those more interactive with our kit. I'd also like another healing spell (divine light...hint hint) that is stronger than flash of light but slower. Divine light in cataclysm felt so perfect for what it was. Holy light felt like it was a small, efficient heal. Flash of light felt like a fast but inefficient heal, and divine light felt like a powerful, slow heal (think the base cast time was 3 seconds).

    Idk, holy paladin over the duration of expansions has just progressively gotten worse, I don't feel like it's going to get any better. I play it now for loyalty, but I'm not happy with it.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Vynlann View Post
    The current iteration of holy paladin just is bleh. Even in legion it was bleh. I didn't play holy paladin during MoP and WoD since I was so in love with mistweaver, but when they changed mistweaver (for imo the worse) during legion, I went back to holy paladin. In legion I liked it more than bfa, the problem is we lost a lot of what was in our artifact and legendary items. Things that should be azerite traits.
    Playing 3x glimmer with cm/ha/sw/dp is actually looking pretty strong if you're interested in playing a little bit like old mistweaver with rem for days, plus way more in depth than the standard. *Almost* makes me think the azerite system is working.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Neyo View Post
    "What? Holy is great in M+ dude. Are you not using beacon of virtue?"

    Sorry, couldn't miss this one xD This talent was the last nail, before I abandoned my vanilla hpala in 5 man content the moment it was introduced, imposed and rejected by my insides. Making a spec viable in aoe and specifically myth+ (which is bread and butter nowdays for ppl who don't have much time for raiding) only when using 1 specific talent is dumb and lazy as hell. For me it is clunky (gcd and 7 sec window) and ruins the basic beacon-based gameplay which was a HPala-only trick (passive main target support while healing other party members). I'd much rather have talented AoE heals like holy priest or talanted buffs to LoD (reduced/removed CD and improved heal, target numbers). Paladin is no longer the one and only viable tank heaelr, also tank healing itself is less important these days. So why not give Hpala spammable AoE healing all other healers have? I know many paladins who also hate this gameplay and they have only 2 options - be banned from seriuos myth+ and quit or play it and hate it. Again, putting viablity if the spec in 1 freaking talent is nonsence. For now, Hpala is, at best, the worse version of a MW on single target and the last place in AoE. The utility it brings these days is IMO vastly overrated and niche in most content. Without decent healing capabilities, throughtput aside CDs and specific talents/traits paladin won't pull it out with average utility only.

    On the topic. I'd like them to finish what they started (a full size melee healer concept) or totally rework (revert the changes to WotLK/Cata/Panda model). At the moment Paladin is in the middle of the road - melee caster healer with supbar tools and mechanics for his role.
    I had the same opinion as you when I first started playing Legion - then I realise I was being naive childish and lazy. Once I started using it I could never do a dungeon again without it. I guess what I'm trying to say is, git gud.

    Holy desperately needs a rework, but Beacon of Virtue should stay for dungeons.

  13. #93
    Brewmaster Demsi's Avatar
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    Regarding beacon of virtue, it's one of the few talents that i really like, and it made holy really fun to play in M+ in legion, combined with the Tier 20 4 pc set bonus, a single holy shock could top of your group if you used the Holy shock proc correctly

  14. #94
    I'm not "naive childish or lazy". I played with it succefully, I hate the changes to the core paladin mechanics it provides w/o actual necessity. I did +11-12 last season with BoF/DP in my own party w/o any troubles. So it's just an imposed talent that is considered through the community as the only one viable choice for myth+. So, no randoms will pick u w/o virtue, for instance. I don't care if this talent stays, I'm against imposing 1 game-changing talent that I don't want to use. This was never a case several expansions ago. For more than 10 years holy paladin was absolutely great in any content with it's tools. Then they just removed most cool stuff (blessings/seals/etc) that ppl loved and forced the melee gameplay noone asked them for, using garbage mastery, nerf to auras' radius and all that stuff. Talents like Beacon of Lightbringer and Virtue were not an improvement. Those were lazy bandages built around the mastery bullshit and aoe potential being trampled to the ground (w/o using specific talent u might not even like to use). I understand that there are a lot of ppl who like the way new Hpala went, I guess a lot of new players started playing it for a change. But I, as a veteran holy since 2005, didn't see a reason to turn a plate wearing priest-like healer with cool, unique mechanicks and skills into a gutted half-melee abomination that is stripped off all stuff that made paladin unique. I agree with one above that Hpaladin is more like a poor version of a Hpriest, that can do everything easier and with a tard more variety/less butthurt. I can face paladin becoming a melee, but I totally hate the fact that there is no choice left in how you build it (usuallu 1 viable talent in every row) and how u play it.

  15. #95
    Well if they want to make us an effective melee healer then we need a total rework to make it happen. At the moment the current design is a mismatch of the Old caster Paladin and the new "meleeish" Paladin and it just doesn't work.

    Either keep us as the plate wearing cleric/caster, which we all loved, and add the Shockadin capabilities we once had, or make a proper rework into a true melee healer. We can't be having our core spamable spells being restricting our movement(HL, FoL) neither we need our mobility heals punish us for using them on top of being underperformning(LotM). Master at the moment is a joke and a hinderance to the spec. It feels like a bandage fix to force as into melee without reall puting thought behind effort to make our healing kit melee friendly.
    While we are at it bring back Seals, Blessing and proper Auras, even the Holy Power system was enjoyable.

    Blizzard need to get their shit together in more than have the specs out there, and Holy Paladins is a top priority!
    Last edited by Johny-Blade; 2019-02-18 at 09:35 AM.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Demsi View Post
    As it stands Holy paladins are not in a good place in terms of gameplay, there's nothing interesting or exciting about holy anymore, as all the fun toys that Legion brought with it is gone, thus making it the least enjoyable healing spec in the game (IMHO).

    Do you agree? Should holy get a rework and if so Why/why not?
    We could use some sort of CD if anything to make up for the hps gap. I don't think any sort of major overhaul is necessary at this point however. Holy paladin is one of my favorite healers to play, at least in M+.

  17. #97
    Brewmaster Demsi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siskokid21 View Post
    We could use some sort of CD if anything to make up for the hps gap. I don't think any sort of major overhaul is necessary at this point however. Holy paladin is one of my favorite healers to play, at least in M+.
    M+ is somewhat better because of Beacon of virtue, however healing in raids is so godawful boring, and while a complete rework might not be necessary (i wouldn't mind tho) some work needs to be done, and it does seem that everyone can agree that the mastery is something that needs to be looked at

  18. #98
    Herald of the Titans Vintersol's Avatar
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    How about making BoV baseline?
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  19. #99
    Brewmaster Demsi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vintersol View Post
    How about making BoV baseline?
    what about Beacon of light then?

  20. #100
    I would probably go back to paladin healing if it were like in Wrath before the revamp where I could spam Flash of Light without ooming and Holy Light when I needed to use some mana and get them out of danger.

    I understand this isn't the direction WoW is in anymore, but being able to solo heal a 25man raid was the best feeling. I've tried holy since then and in Cataclysm it wasn't terrible, except for Holy Power, but it started to drift into mediocrity after. Holy definitely needed some group healing love, but holy power wasn't the way to go. Paladin mastery has never felt great either, shields were OP, and distance from target is just stupid. They could have had Holy mastery cause a % of your heals to heal a couple of targets around your target or something. Pre-Legion this wouldn't have resulted in much overhealing as there were many a fight with the raid taking constant AOE damage. Not sure how well it would do today though.

    Haven't attempted it at all this expansion though as I have pretty much put Paladin behind me after being my main since Horde got them in BC and since I want to tank, paladins aren't in the best spot there either.

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