All these difficulties... Right, or wrong?

[Schizoide]

LFR should be removed as nobody actually enjoys it, but normal, heroic, and mythic difficulties all make sense.

Normal is easy, for friends and casual players. If you pay attention and work together, you'll win. Heroic is the "real" difficulty, where you'll take time to overcome the challenge and not roll right through, but the odds aren't stacked up against you either. And mythic is hardmode, for the elite.

On the dungeon side, normal difficulty hasn't been worth doing for, geez, the last couple of expansions. I clearly remember them being useless back in MoP. They should remove the current normal difficulty entirely and push the others down by one. You can queue for heroic so it can't be challenging by definition.

Also mythic non-plus is confusing and needs to go. Just make mythic+1 not require a keystone and push all the m+ levels up by one.

[Super Kami Dende]

But that's the issue that raiding is not appealing to you because it's too hard - you don't raid. There is plenty of other content to do.

Like I said, people that don't understand why LFR does and should continue to exist shouldn't be the type of people giving advice as how to save WoW.

I don't use LFR but I understand the reason for it. People that complain about LFR are mostly pseudo-elitists.

- - - Updated - - -

LFR should be removed as nobody actually enjoys it, but normal, heroic, and mythic difficulties all make sense.

Hey look, another person who confuses their own feelings for that of everyone.

[grandgato]

LFR should be removed as nobody actually enjoys it, but normal, heroic, and mythic difficulties all make sense.

I enjoy LFR. Don't presume to speak for anyone but yourself.

[Roujeaux]

Me personally, I would save dungeons for endgame content and make their initial difficulty Heroic only. I'd replace leveling process Normal Dungeons with Scenarios that setup the story plot for the endgame dungeon, kinda like how the Demon Hunter Intro/Vault of the Wardens dungeon played out. Mythic+ would also start at what is currently Mythic 0 difficulty.

I think they had it right in Wrath with two raid difficulties. I think if Flex had been invented before LFR that LFR may have never existed. I would have went for 10-30 man Normal raids that was puggable enough for family/friends/strangers but still challenging enough for traditional raid guilds, 20 man Heroic raids for hardcore/elites, and never looked back.

[Schizoide]

I enjoy LFR. Don't presume to speak for anyone but yourself.

I honestly don't believe you.

[rrayy]

This sentence is effectively saying that you are right, and are happy ignoring the evidence that proves you are wrong.

Before the multiple difficulties were inserted, in a game built on achievement, the player number grew. And substantially.

Since the multiple difficulties were inserted, on a game built on entitlement, the player number has collapsed. And substantially.

"

Again, people leave the game for many reasons. You cannot in any way point to sub decline to prove your narrative a fact.

[korijenkins]

Remember when people were worried about "difficulty creep" in BC and Wrath?

Well its been a decade, and its finally materialized.

[Lyvefire]

The most interesting mythology that infests the game and forums is that players need to play all difficulty levels. We've seen this for years with raid difficulties whereas it's quite clear that no one needs to do all of them and that most don't bother with but a couple. If Raid Finder ruins the raid for going further why do we not hear this about normal and heroic raids ruining mythic. We don't. Not as a rule. It's a false problem.

Except it's not? The problem definitely exists its just attributed to something else. Mythic raids definitely are losing participation compared to before, its just attributed a lot more to Titanforging in heroics making doing harder content pointless for many because its not rewarding.

Its also pretty unfair to compare them straight as is because the people who would be transitioning from Heroic to Mythic would definitely not be doing it for the story, the people who only care about that never went above LFR. Wherelse you can definitely argue that a Normal mode that wasnt a crushing difficulty (and anyone arguing Normal as is counts as hard is going to send me into a laughing fit) would get at least some of LFRs players that wanted the story.

[Alkizon]

MoanaLisa
The problem with scaling up difficulty in an instance is that few are going to enjoy an instance they can't finish. Once the word gets around that less-skilled players won't be able to complete the instance they won't bother with it at all.

I don't agree with this. I would rather put up with group in boss/encounter impassable by our current forces, than "run" 1k times finished, but short and repetitive content (this is not how great stories are written). In addition, methods of separation don't include only directly - "complexity" (boss/trash characteristics), but also
- - - - -
other methods
* see catch-up: currency and venders, loot from trash and special events (see U/BRD/S, shame on them for made cut-paths (=portals) thereafter = dividing them into pieces), professions (recipes and reagents inside), season stuff *
mechanics
* see Ulduar/traps/switches = more trash, more complexities (de/buffs in cases of different players' behavior/actions, rather than randomly generated from standard (same for any instance) set), more rooms, more random (but characteristic only for these locality/mobs = story)/time-bound (cyclical/season/number of attempts/timer/full moving or fluid locality/infinite maze/quests/expansion progress) or special reagents (requiring gathering/reputation/currency/quest items), additional wing/room that opens over time or is triggered by specific action/requires key/stuff listed above *
- - - - -

So litirally:
1) season like raising ceiling and floor for PvP is placeable (it's not drop);
2) /same stuff/ inappropriate for PvE, you need just smaller jumps in ilvl, but only ceiling and in no case it should be floor;
3) if necessary and desired, you can "expand" (length/depth) instances or open world, insert pieces that will contain more complex content and bosses with new trigers or behind doors and portals or everything of that, that weren't open before/didn't work due to (lack of) some events/lack of necessary items to enter/some part of terrain was inactive, so it was passed easer before new content and so on... but, I repeat, in no case it should be literal change of drop already introduced into the game, no scaling, no floor raising

Do you want me to tell you how it was done before in the easiest way? Badges! New pieces of equipment were added every "season". They helped people, who're passing through same old instances, "keep new floor bar", but old instances remained actual at the same time and with same requirements. Yes, it wasn't fast, but everything worked as expected. So, those people who just started play got opportunity to simultaneously still receive initial gear and simultaneously save up for stuff closer to last "soft floor", with proper activity and/or luck (and maybe even help) in 1/2 months, they will be almost completely ready to get acquainted with "new season", just when excitement of pioneers subsides - no scaling and resets, I'm happy

Everything is much more interesting and diverse if you approach issue more creatively. Instance isn't self-sufficient world, but piece of outside one, living according to same laws and rules, this is its inalienable continuation and in character lvling/progress case - part of story, part of big journey = all "scaling"s/RNG-t(w)f/amount of modes are murdering this: either you are ready/able to pass or you don't, and problems are only in you, solve them and Try again!

1) two modes are more than enough with this approach (+ time travel season stuff for nostalgia also here stuff about "auto-search~LFG(R)" organization), dungeon: normal (for lvling = story)//heroic (for hlvl progress); raid (not necessarily this, because I'm more like TBC way, but for example): flex of average (N<|x|<H) complexity lvl (for motivated, but limited(by something)/lazy people, but with a bit limited/"closed"/less variable content&progress part)//heroic (H<|x|<M) (for strong cohesive fixed size groups with need for self-affirmation, with full available content) - using all described above methods this is quite enough;
2) I agree that “helping” addons greatly increase gap between these two modes, the only problem is that if now people will deprived of this toolkit, community average “skill” level and this gap size will drop dramatically (current hinting functional is too wide, permissive and shameless, "influential"), I'd consider it as good and right decision, but it can turn out like situation with flights.

For each person own (amount of) content, for each content its own development/opportunities' ceiling (and hence own participation "floor"/plank). Game isn't everybody necessity/donation, but passion worthy of own requirements, and content is its universal and most important measure. This is what it pays us for our efforts and abilities, and not for our money. As soon as another principles starts to lay into production foundation, game begin to lose interest and popularity (often, but not always also grow at "total" price), and devs - recognition and respect.
(ideally we're buying not content, but just opportunity for its receipt; someone can get everything, and someone nothing, and in main degree it depends on ourselves, and not on money or RNG gods, everything is fair and transparent)

Here kind of valid point:

Kralljin

sam86
back then blizz wasn't about release content for afk players, we talking about pre-activision blizzard

More or less, yeah.

The point is, if you start to design content around the lowest common demoninator, you will sooner or later discover that this a bottomless hole.

Because i for one liked vehicle based combat, i liked Oculus, but any sort of content where you cannot change the difficulty "on a slider", has to be removed or neutered down to a level where there is no more fun to be had.
It just doesn't stop at Warfronts, more and more content follows this.

Island expedition are a similiar thing, i think Blizzard could have created an interesting experience based on that, but because any big mechanical changes within that mode is a massive no go for the "lower bracket" of players, Blizzard needs to design any content with that in mind.
So Blizzards to go solution has become the same thing that a lot of other games started to use: A shit ton of difficulty modes where they simply slap % based HP / Dmg modifier onto enemies for each respective difficulty.
Mythc raids at least still have some unique mechanics, but even there you feel the dip of quality since Legion.

Matter of fact, i am rather skeptical of Torghast in Shadowlands for this very reason, i fear that the "more difficult" floors will simply try to beat you with inflated numbers or a rather hamfisted solution such as Affixes, similiar to M+.

To configure PvE, they primarily use design of encounters on 1st, for which role component of the “specs” is configured/provided (your decision should be predictable, which means obvious enough = mouse follows cheese), which affects talent's system design on 2nd, and since talents come out beyond framework of their system and invade class' area on 3rd
- - - snip - - -
If, during design development, solution (every step; not end result) is organized in unobvious way (and sometimes even not foreseen in advance), then there will be some semblance of freedom of choice. Is it hard? Yes, it won't be easy for both sides, but not impossible. For this, for example, dungeons' dynamic “parameters” are needed (walking "guards"/mini-bosses, changeable terrain, specially/accidentally hit “triggers” or some requirements for receiving one or another part of this content), which will be hardly to combine with current timers and "random"-rolled affixes... see where it leads?
- - - snip - - -
By the way, taking this opportunity, I would like to spit at auto-search system in this case. Do you know why? Its check/setup is very dependent on attachment of role with spec ("customization" must clearly express role in order to pass its verification, but old system of "roles", as already mentioned, required rather effective "gear" check for this). There is big desire to say that it was for the sake of this rubbish that whole tomfoolery was started, since hybrids were "unsuitable"/interfered (doesn't fit in "stupid" AI's "simple" analysis) with similar system.

Why not give out 3-4 corresponding abilities to mobs as a group (instead of heresy in the form of affixes, mobs themselves can produce "these same affixes" and the further players pull them along, the more of them accumulates and they're more diverse under such conditions) that will stack (de)buffs/auras, do heal, throw controls, assist each other, fall enrage/uncontrollable state with random switches and threats' drops and won't need "to be afraid" much of "aoe farm" (I can understand that some "intellectual" growth of mobs in open world can technically create certain problems, but in local instance it will only be welcomed, or even kind of must have).

(each class has certain set of them, at least had at certain stage, in addition they were really effective only when certain number of mobs were happened, and they were weak enough and useless for 2-3, same with cleave stuff, they were quite costly/ineffective when used on one mob, and were no longer used for 5+ mobs, but their AoE alternatives), player uses them if it's impossible/not-necessary to do otherwise, more abilities = more choice, more talents for each of them = even more choice...

By the way: they still don't want to give up "box" rewards, without looking at all talk about "loot is loot", but by definition, loot is loot in the first place when it drops from boss for any party, that can kill it, and in only single/possible "instance", without scaling to spec/level/ilvl *pointing finger at new weekly loot boxing system and also PL* Well, where is fixed loot table and linear progers system? None of this, just idle talk.
- - - snip - - -
This is another of many reasons why people are used to "skipping" "rushing" systems, trash has no significance (items-objectives, reagents, reputation, whatever) except to slow down player, bosses don't conventionally have any loot as such, so whole party rosily and cheerfully rushing to the "end" to get this "lootbox", and they don't need whole dungeon as such, as place/lore/challenge - this is what happened with one of significant element of progress and lore in the game under influence of M+ system

In general, it all looks so that team developing these "add-ons" is trying by hook or by crook to justify their "eating bread"... as useless officials making useless/fictitious changes to legislation in their field of activity. Devs' main task is to provide content, while progress system (fundamentals) as a whole must remain constant throughout entire game cycle. Territory organization/technical and logical connections, items/mobs/NPCs design/interdependence/lore/mechanics, quests and dialogues, and so on.

Kaver
What expansion features like this did we have in BC, Wrath, Cata and MOP? None. And those were much better expansions than BFA. Shadowlands doesn't need "expansion features" in terms of borrowed power systems. We just need good fun solid content. That's it. Make Classes fun to play. Make good dungeons. Make good raids. Make good open world content. Make good solo content. That's all we need. We don't need borrowed power systems.

This is quite enough with normal initial/basic gameplay organization, especially if you add to this organized PvP component. Mechanics-toolkit is exactly what player pays for, what should be get by person almost immediately, but content isn't, fee includes only opportunity to receive it, content is payment for correct implementation/understanding/application/adherence to mechanics. New classes/races that are harmonically inscribed in engine can also become some form of temporary content... but not "swing" gameplay every time so that people get confused about game's genre, to dark side it leads.

In short, I completely disagree, but this is just my opinion.

here one of splendid and at same time succinct descriptions of progress problem in game design perspective as complex (it requires quite pronounced "stages" of progress and an inextricably linked with it volume of history = content = plot ≡ progress bar that being reached/"consumed"/available to the player, just like that, no "options", M+...LFR...scaling...t/w.forging, just no!), also with this here being absolutely wrong one, from recent threads on EU forum (fun fact: friend used term "fake elitists" to highlight exactly those, who're discussed in this topic, already 3 years ago talking about toxicity reasons, you can search by term "(fake) elitists" there)... so, yes, it matters; it's just that some people understand/realize this (of course, it’s not worthwhile to bring its importance to point of absurdity, but to deny it is surely a challenge to rational logic), and some don't

[Pua]

Wrong. They were just assigned to different instances instead of having multiple difficulties for the same instance. 5 mans and raids respectively were quite far from being on par in difficulty.

Sigh.

No, it's not wrong.

The topic is really simple. I'm obviously talking about different difficulties of the same content, something that didn't exist in Classic at all and was only expanded to Heroic 5-mans in The Burning Crusade.

For goodness sake, PLEASE try to understand simple posts.

Again, people leave the game for many reasons. You cannot in any way point to sub decline to prove your narrative a fact.

And I'm not.

Sadly, there are others who are dismissing possibilities that could easily be proven by the evidence we have. That's a completely unscientific and badly analytic approach.

[Amerissis]

Do you think there should be heaps of difficulties in order to 'encourage' more people to do certain content while others are degenerated, or should this be properly reviewed to make content completion an achievement, rather than entitlement?

WTF is entitled about multiple difficulties? There have always been multiple difficulties in games. Some people don't want or aren't able to perform at higher difficulties. It doesn't interfere with your need of higher difficulties. In fact, it helps, as without the continued support of people in lower difficulties of content, Blizzard would stop creating that type of content (raids, mostly).

[huth]

Sigh.

No, it's not wrong.

The topic is really simple. I'm obviously talking about different difficulties of the same content, something that didn't exist in Classic at all and was only expanded to Heroic 5-mans in The Burning Crusade.

For goodness sake, PLEASE try to understand simple posts.

No, you weren't "obviously" talking about that. Besides, that's just arbitrarily dismissing data to fit your argument. Unscientific and badly analytic i think you called that?

[Noxina]

You still have gear checks as of today. And if you come and say with a straight face that The Eye, Black Temple or SWP didn't take skill... I'll know that you are talking out of your anus.

But of course you missed the point, i.e. that back then progression felt more natural and "organic", instead of this crap of every single patch invalidating anything that came prior to it.

Yes, we have gear check. And yes, SWP atleast took some skill, but compared to todays Mythic difficulties, I'd say about equal. Everythind under wasn't really too hard for the people who actually raided properly (todays HC/Mythic raiders).

The reason previous raid tiers are invalidated isn't because of different difficult tiers though. It's because of all the catch-up mechanics we have now, making the game less time consuming for the average player.

All the different difficulty tiers really do, is give everyone a chance at raiding, be it LFR or Mythic.

[Deleted]

Yes, we have gear check. And yes, SWP atleast took some skill, but compared to todays Mythic difficulties, I'd say about equal. Everythind under wasn't really too hard for the people who actually raided properly (todays HC/Mythic raiders).

The reason previous raid tiers are invalidated isn't because of different difficult tiers though. It's because of all the catch-up mechanics we have now, making the game less time consuming for the average player.

All the different difficulty tiers really do, is give everyone a chance at raiding, be it LFR or Mythic.

Everyone had chance to raid in vannila. Funeling everyone into raiding did only 1 thing. It killed world content and made players quit faster becouse game become less time consuming and more boring.

[Pua]

WTF is entitled about multiple difficulties?

Because the added difficulties have deliberately designed content in a way that requires no partnership, no social development, no individual skill, no investigation/exploration, no team work and no time-commitment. None of these are required whatsoever, in order to clear the content that (according to the game's designer) made the world feel bigger to those who haven't done so.

This is obvious. I'm not sure what's confusing you, really.

No, you weren't "obviously" talking about that. Besides, that's just arbitrarily dismissing data to fit your argument. Unscientific and badly analytic i think you called that?

Wow.

Rather than just accepting that your original understanding was wrong, without a strong reason and in a laughably obvious post, you're now high-schooling and flipping an "insult" that also is laughably untrue.

Please, in future, just get a grip when you misunderstand an obvious post written in clear English, accept it, and accept your error.

But don't worry, I've no expectation that you'll manage this. Being wrong is probably such a continuation, you barely recognise it irrespective of its obviousness.

[Noxina]

Everyone had chance to raid in vannila. Funeling everyone into raiding did only 1 thing. It killed world content and made players quit faster becouse game become less time consuming and more boring.

To raid in vanilla you had to play the right class, be in a guild, have experience or good friends to vouch for you. LFR didn't kill the game. Age did. Kids now don't have time for MMOs, which is why they implement all this shit to speed things up. Gamers now want face games, it's a reason Battle Royales are huge at the moment - you drop in, you get the feeling of finding good loot, and you get to shoot people while trying to win. All packed into an half hour of fun (more or less).
In WoW you log in, queue up for what ever you want, wait 15 minute because you're a DPS, get in, do your dungeon and get zero upgrades/rewards and BOOM 1 hour have gone by and you achieved nothing.
Back in Vanilla you'd log in, lvl for 6 months, at max level you'd spam trade chat for hours for an UBRS run, then when you finally got a group, the tank had to leave because two hours had past by. Just doesn't fit todays rushed living.

Funneling everyone into raiding didn't kill world content by the way, automated queue systems and teleportations to instances did. LFR was the best thing that ever happened to WoW, and that's comming from one who have raided since Vanilla and done all the end game content. LFR never bothered me. Sure I've felt "forced" to do LFR because of the chance of a tier piece or a titanforge piece, but other than that - good move by Blizzard.


*edit* anyways, good thing Classic is comming back. So people can get back to feeling special

[Maudib]

If there aren't multiple difficulties, then the one that they choose has to cater to the most populated part of the player skill distribution. And that will be pretty easy.

The alternative, catering only to the top players, obviously will not work (and never worked, although churn concealed that for a time).

Somewhat true... but it's better to keep one difficulty... and offer a timed chest reward like Zul Aman did with the bear mounts.

People take the path of least resistance... so many people who COULD do a higher difficulty prefer to just take the rewards from the lowest difficulty and move on.

Besides, as a whole, the standard Wo player is much more capable than they were years ago... no reason to make normal so easy. We really only need normal and heroic... Mythic could stlll be a thing.. but it should ONLY be for bragging rights/leaderboards. Not rewards.

[arkanon]

The two problems as i see it, are completely related. Warforging and too many difficulties. Remove BOTH, and the game is substantially better.

[Voltsmasher]

I hate mythic+ 'difficulty'. All it does is make trash more irritating and the bosses the same difficulty.

People have an issue with island expeditions but M+ is just as bad with trash and maybe even as bad for the drop chances you are hoping for.

[Demithio]

This ship has already sailed. WoW has been so changed and mutated over the years, its clearly designed for a crowd that needs multi-leveled skill requirements to keep all of them happy. Problem is, is that it is a doubled edged sword for Blizzard. While trying to keep everyone happy they also make the same people unhappy because even the most casual gets bored of being handed things. Thus, Blizzard has to spit out more content at a faster rate in a nearly futile attempt to keep subs from bleeding and expansions selling. Which also produces content of inferior quality. On top of that its also alienated a large portion of their "old timer", more stable, player base in which many have left long ago. They have effectively exchanged a stable player base for an unstable one. Its becoming more and more apparent that they cannot keep up with feeding the monster they have created.

Personally, I would love to see a TBC progression dungeon / raid setup again where we had something to strive for and look forward to (this is what makes players stick), but so many other things have changed so much in the game it sort of doesn't matter at this point.