Page 1 of 5
1
2
3
... LastLast
  1. #1
    High Overlord zlloyd1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Lost....
    Posts
    146

    Angry Has Blizzard completely destroyed Feral Druids??

    I recently changed my Balance Boomkin to Feral, after finishing the artifact questline, and have come to realize that Feral Druids have been completely nerfed out of the game for some reason....
    They do almost zero damage, even to PVE trash mobs, they run out of energy almost before the fight starts, and they are completely squishy to the point where they almost die of fright at the first sign of an enemy.
    So my question is this, is there any good reason to play as a Feral Druid anymore, or has Blizzard just removed that spec from the game altogether, and if so why??
    Also, as a side question, is there any kind of energy potion that is not just for Rogues in the game?? I thought Thistle Tea, but of course, that is only for Rogues too. What a rip off, I am sincerely considering ending my sub to WOW, until they can get a team in there that is not dedicated to ruining everything fun about the game that pays their salaries.
    Oh yeah, and Thanks in advance!!

  2. #2

  3. #3
    High Overlord Mekatron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Brasil, SP
    Posts
    107
    I feel very disappointed with the state of ferals. I´m not even talking about raw damage, but the gameplay and the fun aspects of the spec were cut down to the ground. U feel... STUCK, there´s no flow, there are no options, u dont feel "Wow, amazing how I did that unexpected thing in the right timing" anymore.

    The lack of energy is infuriating, yes, but there are more problems stacked, really destroying the spec, mechanic-wise.

    Survival instincts is our only defense ability right now and has an incomprehensible 2-min CD, so u get 1min48sec of no defensive skill AT ALL afterwards.

    Our heals are terrible, almost insignificant, and u have to use them all at the same time to have any real impact... then starve for 30-40 sec.

    Our skills have almost 0 synergy, it doesn´t matter in what order u apply them, the result is the same (only exception is Tiger Fury, and even that doesnt change much). Bleeds take too long to really hurt anyone, giving them too much time to counter-react and heal themselves, and Ferocious Bite destroys your energy pool to hit like a wet noodle.

    Our row of affinities is laughable, all options are weak/uninspired and they keep nerfing it even more, for some reason. Also, the fact u have to choose Resto Aff just to be able to cast Rejuvenation, a brand-like ability for druids... I just can´t conform to that. We used to be able to apply Rejuv in cat form, for god´s sake... now we have to spend a talent point AND leave cat form (wich now has a gcd) to cast... And when u do, u heal for almost nothing. Seriously, I feel wrapped. That spell should be baseline and actually DO HEAL u for some significant ammount, not 0,3% per tick.

    Feral charge should be baseline too, it´s a gap closer we desperately need to get the class going (in every spec, come to think about it, actually).

    In pvp, u MUST have a healer on u the *entire* time, or u will go from 100-0% in a 2-stuns cycle. It´s almost impossible to spread bleeds (rake and rip) anymore, as our energy doesnt let u, and since Infected Wounds was nerfed to the ground (from 50 to 20% speed reduction on the enemy), given nowadays every class has ranged/aoe slows, so u just CANT move fast enough to have that gameplay going. It´s very usual to have to stay back applying Moonfire (a talent... with almost no damage either) from a distance to any group of 3 enemies because I will simply die in 2 seconds if I go towards them. If u get out of cat form to cast Entangle while being chased, u will be dead in a second.

    PVP talents are boring, uninspired and extremely situational, and they keep nerfing them, it baffles me. Like the Entangle nerf (now it doesnt affect ranged attacks anymore). 90% of them are small increases in something, that changes nothing. We had an amazing gap closer rake-charge thing as pvp-talent in the beginning of Legion, wich was removed in the first patch. I saw then that ferals really cant have nice things.

    So sad.
    Last edited by Mekatron; 2018-11-25 at 01:02 AM.

  4. #4
    if my disc priest finds a feral in the wild i fight it and win 100% of the time pretty much regardless of the druids gear level. it sucks to suck i guess

  5. #5
    @Nostromo93
    You can't really trust warcraftlogs data on m+ because so few people log dungeons.

    @zlloyd1
    Feral isn't as bad as it seems. They do fairly poor damage in world content because things die so quickly that you can't really get your damage rolling. For that reason I'm almost always doing world content as Guardian, cause I can just grab everything and murder it down fairly easy.

    Feral's biggest concern is their AoE damage. Right now the only way to increase their AoE output is to take a talent that affects their single target (Brutal Slash), which is frustrating. Single target damage is really good though, and Feral can pump out solid damage, and can even use adds to more quickly generate combo points to then slam back into the boss (although not nearly on the level of a Sub Rogue).

    The other thing about Feral is that it is one of the most, if not the most, unique and complex specs to play. This means that unless you seek out knowledge on the spec and practice things, you won't be able to output dps to their full potential.

    [Opinion Incoming]
    I almost feel as if a large portion of Ferals are not playing the class that optimally, cause I am scoring quite highly lately in parses; however, the gulf between 92% and a 100% log is quite large. This makes me think that those in the 90% range are actually outputting what other specs at around 75% are doing, relatively speaking. Hopefully that makes sense.

    For comparison, I was making logs within the 60-75% range as Havoc before switching, and now I regularly make in the 75-95% range with Feral. A lot of things impact good logs too, such as outside factors involving your raid and how well (or bad in some cases) they perform, as well as quality of gear. That I think is less of a factor with Feral, as if you play the spec optimally you will get higher parses due to what I suspect is the lack of players playing the spec optimally.
    [/Opinion]

  6. #6
    High Overlord zlloyd1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Lost....
    Posts
    146

    Angry

    Quote Originally Posted by Mekatron View Post
    I feel very disappointed with the state of ferals. I´m not even talking about raw damage, but the gameplay and the fun aspects of the spec were cut down to the ground. U feel... STUCK, there´s no flow, there are no options, u dont feel "Wow, amazing how I did that unexpected thing in the right timing" anymore.

    The lack of energy is infuriating, yes, but there are more problems stacked, really destroying the spec, mechanic-wise.

    Survival instincts is our only defense ability right now and has an incomprehensible 2-min CD, so u get 1min48sec of no defensive skill AT ALL afterwards.

    Our heals are terrible, almost insignificant, and u have to use them all at the same time to have any real impact... then starve for 30-40 sec.

    Our skills have almost 0 synergy, it doesn´t matter in what order u apply them, the result is the same (only exception is Tiger Fury, and even that doesnt change much). Bleeds take too long to really hurt anyone, giving them too much time to counter-react and heal themselves, and Ferocious Bite destroys your energy pool to hit like a wet noodle.

    Our row of affinities is laughable, all options are weak/uninspired and they keep nerfing it even more, for some reason. Also, the fact u have to choose Resto Aff just to be able to cast Rejuvenation, a brand-like ability for druids... I just can´t conform to that. We used to be able to apply Rejuv in cat form, for god´s sake... now we have to spend a talent point AND leave cat form (wich now has a gcd) to cast... And when u do, u heal for almost nothing. Seriously, I feel wrapped. That spell should be baseline and actually DO HEAL u for some significant ammount, not 0,3% per tick.

    Feral charge should be baseline too, it´s a gap closer we desperately need to get the class going (in every spec, come to think about it, actually).

    In pvp, u MUST have a healer on u the *entire* time, or u will go from 100-0% in a 2-stuns cycle. It´s almost impossible to spread bleeds (rake and rip) anymore, as our energy doesnt let u, and since Infected Wounds was nerfed to the ground (from 50 to 20% speed reduction on the enemy), given nowadays every class has ranged/aoe slows, so u just CANT move fast enough to have that gameplay going. It´s very usual to have to stay back applying Moonfire (a talent... with almost no damage either) from a distance to any group of 3 enemies because I will simply die in 2 seconds if I go towards them. If u get out of cat form to cast Entangle while being chased, u will be dead in a second.

    PVP talents are boring, uninspired and extremely situational, and they keep nerfing them, it baffles me. Like the Entangle nerf (now it doesnt affect ranged attacks anymore). 90% of them are small increases in something, that changes nothing. We had an amazing gap closer rake-charge thing as pvp-talent in the beginning of Legion, wich was removed in the first patch. I saw then that ferals really cant have nice things.

    So sad.
    So Sad is right, and I cannot for the life of me figure out why Blizz keeps nerfing a spec that is already pathetic, but they do....
    As I have said before, if they want to get rid of Feral as a spec completely, then they should just remove it, and stop wasting people's time trying to play a spec that is obviously designed to lose every fight....
    I actually wanted to like Feral, mainly because you can sneak around stealthed, but unlike Rogues, once you attack, the fight is pretty much over now, even in PVE, let alone in PVP, which is a guaranteed loss every time, no matter who you fight. Also, every time I search for anything that can boost energy for a toon, it seems it is ALWAYS just for Rogues, (Thistle Tea) who Blizzard apparently still cares for.
    I really wish there was an energy potion / drink that was usable by Feral Druids, since they have the same needs, but Blizz has decided to completely forsake the spec altogether now.
    Why Blizzard, WHY??
    It actually used to be a strong spec, but the current crop of Blizz losers, for some reason, has decided to nerf it out of the game!!

  7. #7
    I skipped over this, cause I was just popping in mostly with how I feel the state of things are, but this seriously has to be addressed.

    @Mekatron
    You are clearly posting from a pvp perspective. I don't pvp on Feral so I'm not arguing against things, from a pvp point of view; however, from a pve point of view, a lot of what you are saying doesn't hold water. This is my rebuttal in regards to raiding as Feral:

    The lack of energy is infuriating, yes, but there are more problems stacked, really destroying the spec, mechanic-wise.
    Energy is the entire point of the spec and how it operates. Feral is not a spec where you are constantly casting. If you were required to slam a button every GCD you couldn't (or at least it would be way harder to) play the spec, as you need to plan ahead when using abilities. Pretty much everyone that makes the argument of being energy starved are simply not playing the spec correctly, and if you don't like that gameplay you should play a different spec.

    Survival instincts is our only defense ability right now and has an incomprehensible 2-min CD, so u get 1min48sec of no defensive skill AT ALL afterwards.
    You are completely skimming over the fact that you have two stacks of it. Meaning that you should, just like almost every other spec, have a defensive once per minute. The difference is that Feral has the option of using up two defensives earlier. This is all not to mention that Survival Instincts is a fairly strong defensive ability that negates a lot of damage.

    Our heals are terrible, almost insignificant, and u have to use them all at the same time to have any real impact... then starve for 30-40 sec.
    Feral healing is quite good for a dps, and you get free heals every time you land a 5 CP finisher. It has a decent heal with a hot afterwards. It gives Feral good sustainability in raids, as you are able to patch yourself up with consistent healing over time, giving healers enough time to aid you if necessary.

    @zlloyd1
    If you want to give Feral and honest shake, you should really learn more about the spec and how it functions. It's a really fun and unique spec, the only major issue is Blizzard being slow with tuning and for some... really dumb reason they refuse to give it solid AoE... The AoE problem is getting largely fixed in 8.1, where all of the AoE related talents will have their own row, including a new talent that will give solid sustained AoE, as well as buffs to Brutal Slash for burst AoE.

  8. #8
    Over 9000! Duilliath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Moonglade
    Posts
    9,365
    Quote Originally Posted by MookieRah View Post
    I skipped over this, cause I was just popping in mostly with how I feel the state of things are, but this seriously has to be addressed.

    @Mekatron
    You are clearly posting from a pvp perspective. I don't pvp on Feral so I'm not arguing against things, from a pvp point of view; however, from a pve point of view, a lot of what you are saying doesn't hold water. This is my rebuttal in regards to raiding as Feral:


    Energy is the entire point of the spec and how it operates. Feral is not a spec where you are constantly casting. If you were required to slam a button every GCD you couldn't (or at least it would be way harder to) play the spec, as you need to plan ahead when using abilities. Pretty much everyone that makes the argument of being energy starved are simply not playing the spec correctly, and if you don't like that gameplay you should play a different spec.
    You are overlooking one point: they just rolled feral. As a result they are horrendously undergeared and suffer from a lack of haste. A fresh feral constantly is out of energy, because you don't have the regen to keep your abilities up. Feral becomes a lot more fluid once you've gotten 15-20% haste.

  9. #9
    It's honestly better to learn the spec and proper energy management and how that interacts with your abilities with low haste anyways.

  10. #10
    High Overlord Mekatron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Brasil, SP
    Posts
    107
    Replying to mookieRah:

    I raid as guardian, mostly, because I like it more, but u are right, most of my points were about pvp AND/OR ferals leveling/fresh 120.

    I have 375 ilvl, but even as I do wqs, I feel a huge difference in class balance. Lower ilvl paladins, hunters, mages, warriors... they vaporize everything in the blink of an eye. While in feral spec I have to be careful in pulling 3-4 mobs at the same time, because it takes them too long to die.

    And every other class does´t have 1 defensive per minute, no. Again talking about mages and paladins... their defensives are so constant, that u as feral have to choose the exact right moment to use any of your abilities or else u completely wasted them. Other classes/spec DO NOT go 1min48sec without any of their defensive cds.

    Even if their cds were this long, they wouldnt HAVE TO: a feral can´t burst all that damage to make them NEED to use all cds at the same time and starve. While our output is so low, they can pace their 3-4 cds in a 2-min window without any issue.

    Bleeds should hit harder, because they are difficult to apply. Or the initial damage of the skill landing should be higher. Making both of them so low... that´s just unfair.
    Last edited by Mekatron; 2018-11-25 at 10:39 PM.

  11. #11
    Who has what better defensives? In pve no dps has better defensives than a feral druid outside of immunity classes and darkness.

  12. #12
    High Overlord zlloyd1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Lost....
    Posts
    146

    Cool

    While I will have to agree with many of the points made here, I must persist that it is seeming to be WAY slower to take down mobs than it was before the new crop of Blizz people started ripping in the spec so heavily.
    Yes, you can survive, but no you cannot do good damage anymore. The running out of energy is not as big a concern for me as I made out to be honest, mainly because I have 30% haste, but even with that, almost none of the attacks do decent damage anymore. The mobs just sit there and tank me for what seems like eternity, and I am tired of trying to kill powerful enemies with spitballs that just seem to bounce off.
    I may just go back to my Boomkin, I could see them taking damage, and keep them at bay somewhat with Entangle, but as I noted, I was wanting to switch because it seemed too slow to burn them down with Balance, and I was sincerely hoping that Feral could help me pick up the pace somewhat. That turned out to be a disappointing eye-opener for me, as they now feel somewhat toothless....
    I must admit though, Blizz did give a LOT of love to my main, and Demo Locks are almost Godlike in BFA, in fact all I do with him now is PVP and Raid, so perhaps a Druid is a bad class altogether now. However, I did take the time to get him all the way to 107, and do not want to throw all of that away now. It seems a shame to me, because it WAS a very cool hybrid class, at one time, similar to Pallies, and in the WOW lore, Druids are made out to be extremely, next-level powerful creatures. I do not intend to give up on my Druid, until I get him to 120 either, so I may go back, and see about rerolling him for Guardian, and go Bear.
    Tanks are sort of slow to kill, but they are also not often truly threatened either. Who knows, maybe I could make a solid Tank out of him, I just hate giving up the enjoyment of slaughtering baddies, just to not die. DPS is my heroin really. As well, tanking can significantly slow down the leveling process, so until I get to 120, I will likely stick with the Boomkin, and then specialize.
    In any case, Thanks for all of the responses!!
    Last edited by zlloyd1; 2018-11-26 at 01:58 AM.

  13. #13
    @Mekatron
    Almost all of the issues you talk about is more of a problem with ramp up time, not so much the power of Feral's bleeds. If you boosted their damage even more then it would make them do too much single target dps, and they would either have to shift more damage from Feral's builders, or something else equally terrible.

    Personally I hate how Blizz has made it so that some specs have too much ramp up time. It's fine that some classes have damage over time effects like bleeds, but there needs to be a way for these specs to get their dots rolling faster, without the inital clutter. This is less of a problem in raids, cause the encounters last long enough for you to set things up, and if you are experienced on the fight and know the transitions you can set things up so that when you can dps hard again you can have things rolling near instantly, but the fact that you start with nothing at first and have to work your way up when other classes can unleash their biggest hits immediately is the problem here.

  14. #14
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by MookieRah View Post
    @Mekatron
    Almost all of the issues you talk about is more of a problem with ramp up time, not so much the power of Feral's bleeds. If you boosted their damage even more then it would make them do too much single target dps, and they would either have to shift more damage from Feral's builders, or something else equally terrible.

    Personally I hate how Blizz has made it so that some specs have too much ramp up time. It's fine that some classes have damage over time effects like bleeds, but there needs to be a way for these specs to get their dots rolling faster, without the inital clutter. This is less of a problem in raids, cause the encounters last long enough for you to set things up, and if you are experienced on the fight and know the transitions you can set things up so that when you can dps hard again you can have things rolling near instantly, but the fact that you start with nothing at first and have to work your way up when other classes can unleash their biggest hits immediately is the problem here.
    Yeah and that is also what utterly destroys the unholy DK in mythic dungeons. They CAN have amazing aoe damage but there is such a long ramp up time that they rarely get to shine at all.
    Such a big shame because feral and unholy are the 2 dps specs I like the best.

  15. #15
    High Overlord zlloyd1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Lost....
    Posts
    146

    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by MookieRah View Post
    @Mekatron
    Almost all of the issues you talk about is more of a problem with ramp up time, not so much the power of Feral's bleeds. If you boosted their damage even more then it would make them do too much single target dps, and they would either have to shift more damage from Feral's builders, or something else equally terrible.

    Personally I hate how Blizz has made it so that some specs have too much ramp up time. It's fine that some classes have damage over time effects like bleeds, but there needs to be a way for these specs to get their dots rolling faster, without the inital clutter. This is less of a problem in raids, cause the encounters last long enough for you to set things up, and if you are experienced on the fight and know the transitions you can set things up so that when you can dps hard again you can have things rolling near instantly, but the fact that you start with nothing at first and have to work your way up when other classes can unleash their biggest hits immediately is the problem here.
    This is a lot of what I am saying honestly, the bleeds have been nerfed to the point where, unless a fight lasts for several minutes, they do not hurt the targets at all....
    So, why even have bleeds at all??
    Still, I am not so much concerned about the bleeds really, but the lack of overall DPS. In that vein, about the fights lasting for several minutes, I am noticing that they DO in fact drag on for longer than is comfortable, mainly because the direct damage attacks from Feral do very little either, which leaves far too much time for the inevitable Blizzard adds to join in and surround you before you can dispatch a target. Blizz LOVES to have mobs on constant patrol everywhere that are near impossible to avoid unless you can finish your initial target quickly, which is unlikely!!

    You really NEED to burn down mobs fast to avoid being swarmed, because once you are surrounded victory is much more tedious....
    Last edited by zlloyd1; 2018-11-26 at 05:23 PM.

  16. #16
    This is a lot of what I am saying honestly, the bleeds have been nerfed to the point where, unless a fight lasts for several minutes, they do not hurt the targets at all....
    The bleeds do a ton of damage, the problem is that in order to get EVERYTHING up and rolling on a target you have to spend 5-6 globals to do it. So no, the bleeds don't need more damage, it would just be nice to have a way to get the damage rolling sooner. Thankfully, that is being largely resolved in 8.1, as Rip will do max damage regardless of combo points, just at reduced time for lower CP. Same goes for AoE rip. You should be able to open with a stealth rake > Thrash > AoE Rip, and have a lot of AoE bleeds ticking while you start Raking the other targets. Feral will feel A LOT better then.

    Edit: I said swipe instead of thrash like a noob in my proposed m+ opener. Not to mention that you should have cp carried iver from the previous pack.
    Last edited by MookieRah; 2018-11-27 at 07:07 AM.

  17. #17
    High Overlord zlloyd1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Lost....
    Posts
    146

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by MookieRah View Post
    The bleeds do a ton of damage, the problem is that in order to get EVERYTHING up and rolling on a target you have to spend 5-6 globals to do it. So no, the bleeds don't need more damage, it would just be nice to have a way to get the damage rolling sooner. Thankfully, that is being largely resolved in 8.1, as Rip will do max damage regardless of combo points, just at reduced time for lower CP. Same goes for AoE rip. You should be able to open with a stealth rake > Swipe > AoE Rip, and have a lot of AoE bleeds ticking while you start Raking the other targets. Feral will feel A LOT better then.
    No, the bleeds do almost no damage, to be truthful.
    Also, I am not honestly convinced that Blizz will improve anything with the upcoming patch, as it has seemed to be the trend to use every patch as a means to downgrade the gaming experience, and introduce ever more nerfs, but I will keep my fingers crossed I guess!!

  18. #18
    Moderator -aiko-'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    The House of All Worlds
    Posts
    10,285
    Feral really isn't performing that poorly right now from a raiding perspective. I hate using logs, as it is tricky to gauge performance of an underrepresented spec like Feral, but even so we are actually parsing among the top 10 specs on 4 bosses this tier (using heroic/90 percentile as a baseline). Going into Mythic we are pretty similar, dropping a little under top 10 on some of those fights, but there are very little Mythic Feral parses. I mean, do I want to be higher? Yes, especially if ST damage is supposed to be our niche. There are bosses we are absolutely dogshit on, as well, but regardless this thread is packed full of hyperbole and misinformation.

    I mean, when it comes to PvP we are actually quite strong. Jungle remains a pretty popular comp and is scary as fuck to fight against. Even after the nerf our off-healing is pretty nuts too, so I'm not sure why people are saying it's not. PotG gives us crazy burst healing and what other dps spec gets consistent, free heals? Bleeds are strong and we can spec for decent burst so we fit into both rot and burst comps. We are definitely squishy though.

    Where our true problem lies is the M+ meta. We simply don't bring any burst AoE right now or solid enough utility to pick us over the other melee specs, who simply have better toolkits than us. @MookieRah is right, the strength of our bleeds aren't the problem, it is the amount of time it takes to get them rolling on multiple targets. We'll have to see how 8.1 AoE talents help balance this out but even with stronger AoE it's hard to pick a Feral over almost any other melee DPS spec.

  19. #19
    High Overlord zlloyd1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Lost....
    Posts
    146

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by -aiko- View Post
    Feral really isn't performing that poorly right now from a raiding perspective. I hate using logs, as it is tricky to gauge performance of an underrepresented spec like Feral, but even so we are actually parsing among the top 10 specs on 4 bosses this tier (using heroic/90 percentile as a baseline). Going into Mythic we are pretty similar, dropping a little under top 10 on some of those fights, but there are very little Mythic Feral parses. I mean, do I want to be higher? Yes, especially if ST damage is supposed to be our niche. There are bosses we are absolutely dogshit on, as well, but regardless this thread is packed full of hyperbole and misinformation.

    I mean, when it comes to PvP we are actually quite strong. Jungle remains a pretty popular comp and is scary as fuck to fight against. Even after the nerf our off-healing is pretty nuts too, so I'm not sure why people are saying it's not. PotG gives us crazy burst healing and what other dps spec gets consistent, free heals? Bleeds are strong and we can spec for decent burst so we fit into both rot and burst comps. We are definitely squishy though.
    While these points may have some merit, I am actually talking about leveling up in the game world, and not in raids / PVP....
    Every time I come across a mob(s), in the regular game world, they take AGES to bring down, and this becomes a real issue when you are being zerged by a number of mobs at once, which is almost religiously the case. The main recourse when 2 -4 extra mobs enter a fight, is to tear them down one at a time until they are dead, and this seems to be almost impossible with Feral.
    Also, I am not clear what 'hyperbole and misinformation' you are referring to honestly.
    Continuing, to be honest, I am not certain what this means, 'PotG gives us crazy burst healing'?? What does PotG stand for exactly please??
    As well, as I have noted numerous times in this thread, contrary to the myth, it does not seem that Feral is doing hardly any ST damage to me. At least I have not seen it yet, while trying to play as a Feral. Maybe I am missing something here, but this is confusing me even more, that everyone believes that Feral have strong single target attacks, while I have seen, in practice, that it is taking far too long to take down every single mob, being ganged up on, or not!!
    Last edited by zlloyd1; 2018-11-27 at 01:59 PM.

  20. #20
    My Demon hunter at the exact same item level kills things 3 times as fast even with a perfect rotation, something is wrong for sure.
    “If you don't believe me that is too damn bad!”

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •