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  1. #21
    High Overlord zlloyd1's Avatar
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    My Demon hunter at the exact same item level kills things 3 times as fast even with a perfect rotation, something is wrong for sure.
    That is actually what I am looking for here, a perfect rotation, not an argument over whether or not Feral has been nerfed out of the game....
    I generally come up in Prowl, attack with Shred to start getting CPs, and then follow up with whatever spells are available given the CPs accrued. This combination seems to drag and drag to kill even a single target, let alone the known lack of AoE provided when you get surrounded (every fight).
    Is there a more potent rotation that I do not realize, or am I correct that the spec is all but dead now??

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by zlloyd1 View Post
    That is actually what I am looking for here, a perfect rotation, not an argument over whether or not Feral has been nerfed out of the game....
    I generally come up in Prowl, attack with Shred to start getting CPs, and then follow up with whatever spells are available given the CPs accrued. This combination seems to drag and drag to kill even a single target, let alone the known lack of AoE provided when you get surrounded (every fight).
    Is there a more potent rotation that I do not realize, or am I correct that the spec is all but dead now??
    In high end gear it seems to start clearing up a lot, but to me that is poor game design on Blizzards part. Classes should perform well regardless of their gear as a factor (to a reasonable degree), especially when you need to get gear. I switched to Guardian because honestly I kill stuff faster as Guardian.
    “If you don't believe me that is too damn bad!”

  3. #23
    Deleted
    you get to run around as a pink and orange glitter kitty. Who cares about stupid stuff like gameplay

    Seriously though, I'd love to see some changes to feral along with an an ability like the warlock deathbolt talent that draws down the remaining damage on the targets bleeds for a single big hit on trash or priority ads / world content mobs.

  4. #24
    High Overlord zlloyd1's Avatar
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    In high end gear it seems to start clearing up a lot, but to me that is poor game design on Blizzards part. Classes should perform well regardless of their gear as a factor (to a reasonable degree), especially when you need to get gear. I switched to Guardian because honestly I kill stuff faster as Guardian.
    This^
    I feel upset that I cannot have a spec that allows for stealth, but it does no good whatsoever to be able to sneak up on mobs, just to find that once you come out of stealth, you are now in a fight that never seems to end....
    I may indeed look into Guardian spec to see if it can do any reasonable damage, but it is sad to have to choose a spec you do not want, just because the so called 'damage' spec is worthless!!

  5. #25
    Moderator -aiko-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zlloyd1 View Post
    While these points may have some merit, I am actually talking about leveling up in the game world, and not in raids / PVP....
    Well there's your problem. You are comparing sustained vs burst damage against open world mobs. Feral is not a burst spec. We are about applying and maintaining buffed and powerful bleeds. It takes time to set up these bleeds, while a Demon Hunter can just pop some short burst abilities and kill a mob in seconds. However, over a longer period of time, where we are able to set up and keep up these bleeds, a Feral will generally out-damage a Demon Hunter.

    It's just the way it works. Just think about what DoT means...Damage Over Time. Rip is our single most powerful bleed and it last 20 seconds (even longer without Jagged Wounds). If Rip doesn't last the entire 20 seconds, damage is wasted. An open world mob generally won't last this long so we are losing out on a chunk of damage.

    If you don't like this style of play, it is fine to have an opinion such as "I don't like the way Feral plays". The hyperbole and misinformation comes when you come in and say "Feral is designed to lose a fight" and claim Blizzard keeps nerfing it into the ground, which is factually false.

    Look, I'm not trying to be rude, but a lot of the stuff said in this thread is literally not true.

    Also, regarding PvP, for 1v1 duels Feral is actually one of the best specs in the game. No matter what your level is. We have good off-heals, we can run away, we can CC (although rip Cyclone).
    PotG is Protector of the Grove btw, a PvP talent, as that paragraph of mine was referring to PvP.

  6. #26
    High Overlord zlloyd1's Avatar
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    Cool

    So, you are saying that Feral is not a world play spec, but only a good spec for raiding / PVP??
    Well that is disappointing truly, but alright, I will keep that in mind, and keep a strong Feral gear set in the bank (which I kid of have now), until I get to where I want to start those aspects of the game, and may be back if it turns out to still be a dud, thanks!!

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by -aiko- View Post
    Well there's your problem. You are comparing sustained vs burst damage against open world mobs. Feral is not a burst spec. We are about applying and maintaining buffed and powerful bleeds. It takes time to set up these bleeds, while a Demon Hunter can just pop some short burst abilities and kill a mob in seconds. However, over a longer period of time, where we are able to set up and keep up these bleeds, a Feral will generally out-damage a Demon Hunter.

    It's just the way it works. Just think about what DoT means...Damage Over Time. Rip is our single most powerful bleed and it last 20 seconds (even longer without Jagged Wounds). If Rip doesn't last the entire 20 seconds, damage is wasted. An open world mob generally won't last this long so we are losing out on a chunk of damage.

    If you don't like this style of play, it is fine to have an opinion such as "I don't like the way Feral plays". The hyperbole and misinformation comes when you come in and say "Feral is designed to lose a fight" and claim Blizzard keeps nerfing it into the ground, which is factually false.

    Look, I'm not trying to be rude, but a lot of the stuff said in this thread is literally not true.

    Also, regarding PvP, for 1v1 duels Feral is actually one of the best specs in the game. No matter what your level is. We have good off-heals, we can run away, we can CC (although rip Cyclone).
    PotG is Protector of the Grove btw, a PvP talent, as that paragraph of mine was referring to PvP.
    Problem is, all the other sustained DPS specs all have bursty stuff baseline, They really need to make Ferocious Bite and all non bleed parts of abilities do more damage to bleeding targets and it would go a long way to improve burst that we need baseline.
    “If you don't believe me that is too damn bad!”

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by zlloyd1 View Post
    That is actually what I am looking for here, a perfect rotation, not an argument over whether or not Feral has been nerfed out of the game....
    If you didn't want a discussion about if Feral has been nerfed out of the game or not you probably should have made your title something along the lines of "Is feral a bad option for leveling?" instead of going with something asking if Blizzard has destroyed ferals or not. Like it or not the title of threads sets the tone and has huge impact on how people react and respond.

  9. #29
    Moderator -aiko-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zlloyd1 View Post
    So, you are saying that Feral is not a world play spec
    Depends on what you're looking for but most people would probably agree that it's a frustrating spec in open world, non-PvP content.

    Getting my Conqueror of Azeroth title early on in BFA via warmode PvP was one of the most enjoyable things I did this expansion. Leveling was not.

  10. #30
    In open world open with rake not shred, the stun from stealth reducing enemy damage to you outweighs the lower front loaded damage unless it's mobs that are instantly flopping over.
    In open world you also have fresh wound and rip and tear from your pvp talents. There's nothing wrong with bleeding a couple targets and using mass entange or typhooning them while go on to 3rd target.
    Jagged wounds, brutal slash and feral frenzy are also great in open world for higher front loading of damage. I tend to keep incarnation in open world only to have an oh shit restealth(not a night elf).
    Predator talent also resets your tigers fury constantly in open world for constant energy boost instead of starving.

  11. #31
    @Aiko

    Is it correct that Feral will NOT get Cyclone as a PvP talent in 8.1? I thought I saw that we would get Cyclone.

  12. #32
    Moderator -aiko-'s Avatar
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    As far as I am aware we are getting it back in 8.1 as an honor talent. It has a cast time, costs mana and takes you out of form.

  13. #33

  14. #34
    High Overlord Eluvium's Avatar
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    I don't know if they are terrible or not but I was feral through Lich King and then something happened and I just got bored -- been a boomie ever since

  15. #35
    While leveling, if a mob has low HP, then I wouldn't bother using a bleed, and you don't necessarily have to save CPs to 5, either. You can use FB at 3-4 CPs if the mob won't live long enough for saving to 5 CP's to be worth it.


    Oh yeah, and Thanks in advance!!
    You're very welcome!

  16. #36
    High Overlord zlloyd1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    If you didn't want a discussion about if Feral has been nerfed out of the game or not you probably should have made your title something along the lines of "Is feral a bad option for leveling?" instead of going with something asking if Blizzard has destroyed ferals or not. Like it or not the title of threads sets the tone and has huge impact on how people react and respond.
    I stand by my title honestly....
    Mainly because I used to play Feral normally, and it was FAR stronger vs world mobs than it is now. Feral Druids used to be a fierce spec to level up with, but that seems to have been before Activision took over WOW from Blizz, and now they feel almost helpless, so that is what I meant by 'destroyed'. If a spec is specialized only for end-game content / PVP, that seems to effectively remove it from the rest of the game.
    I went ahead, and got the Artifact for Guardian, and am concentrating more on that, leaving Feral behind for a while until I can get much better geared, then I may come back for another try. I have almost religiously found that the tanking specs are much better in world play because they are more difficult to kill. I used this with my Pally and Warrior, because their attack specs feel like they die too quickly to me. Still, I do believe the posts that Feral can be substantial for raid fights / longer battles, and even for PVP, but it was never limited to those before, and this is why I was confused. Especially the lack of AoE burst damage, we all know how Blizz LOVES to surround you, at least in Draenor they do, was confounding me, because it seems to be a new thing. I am sorely disappointed in the recent bout of negative changes to the spec that make me feel like they want to remove it [completely for some reason....
    EVERYTHING is not raiding / PVPing Blizz. Those are secular aspects of the game that are nowhere near as enjoyable as actually playing the game normally!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eluvium View Post
    I don't know if they are terrible or not but I was feral through Lich King and then something happened and I just got bored -- been a boomie ever since
    Yes, I kind of got bored with my Boomkin, in Draenor, so I wanted to add some fun to my Druid, but Feral seems to have been a failed experiment for me. Still, I am having some success, running around as the Bear, and just tanking down the baddies, and again thanks for all responses!!

  17. #37
    Feral has received some minor buffs since BFA started, but I had to swap to Balance/Moonkin for raiding. The 8.1 patch will give us another minor buff plus a couple talent switch-arounds, so I'm hoping it will again be viable. I'm not sure how the rotation can remain essentially the same from Legion to BFA and yet lose all the fun and the damage...
    "For years now I've found it to be a such a strange honor to be followed around the internet by expert interpreters, who take plain words in English and replace them with other, more loaded words in English." - Posted by Zarhym

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by zlloyd1 View Post
    I stand by my title honestly....
    Mainly because I used to play Feral normally, and it was FAR stronger vs world mobs than it is now. Feral Druids used to be a fierce spec to level up with, but that seems to have been before Activision took over WOW from Blizz, and now they feel almost helpless, so that is what I meant by 'destroyed'. If a spec is specialized only for end-game content / PVP, that seems to effectively remove it from the rest of the game.
    I went ahead, and got the Artifact for Guardian, and am concentrating more on that, leaving Feral behind for a while until I can get much better geared, then I may come back for another try. I have almost religiously found that the tanking specs are much better in world play because they are more difficult to kill. I used this with my Pally and Warrior, because their attack specs feel like they die too quickly to me. Still, I do believe the posts that Feral can be substantial for raid fights / longer battles, and even for PVP, but it was never limited to those before, and this is why I was confused. Especially the lack of AoE burst damage, we all know how Blizz LOVES to surround you, at least in Draenor they do, was confounding me, because it seems to be a new thing. I am sorely disappointed in the recent bout of negative changes to the spec that make me feel like they want to remove it [completely for some reason....
    EVERYTHING is not raiding / PVPing Blizz. Those are secular aspects of the game that are nowhere near as enjoyable as actually playing the game normally!!
    I'll try to put some perspective on it, some may agree with me, others may not.

    Ever since Blizz decided that tanks should do damage to maintain threat instead of high threat modifiers, tanks have been insanely good at mass pulling and AoEing, simple as that. I have quite a few Server First achievements where I always leveled as a bear, since mass aoeing is much more efficient in open world questing than single target damage, where Feral does much better than a bear.

    However, Ferals have gone back and forth between being bleed-centric damage dealers or direct damage dealers, and that also makes a difference in open world questing and how efficient it came be. It's either going to be bleed-and-kite or burst down a target via direct damage, and the health of mobs will heavily dictate this. What people may be feeling nowadays is the effect of mob scaling with respect to your own level, which makes killing things as you level feel much harder in conjunction with the reduction in gains from secondary stats every time you ding a level. While you may want to bleed-and-kite while moving along to the next mob, this process gets harder the higher you level due to mob scaling as they keep living longer and start dealing more damage to you. This hurts everyone to some degree, I feel it hurts Feral quite a bit due to (as others have mentioned) seemingly being tuned around good end-game gear and/or group content.

    How could they fix it? Well, I've advocated this with respect to bears and such, but the most straightforward way would be different scaling of abilities based upon the content. It's something Blizz already does when it comes to PvP, raids, and 5man/solo content for some classes and abilities, but they've not taken the leap to go crazy with it. My assumption is that Blizz doesn't want to do things this way and tries to use it as a last resort. The problem with having abilities, such as Feral bleeds, acting exactly the same in PvP, raids, and 5man/solo content is that you'll run into the issue of the bleed damage being overpowered in some scenarios, underpowered in others. I've lost count of how many times roughly 1-2 weeks into a new expansion Blizz would nerf all Feral bleeds because they were too powerful in PvP, and this was before they did PvP scaling of abilities, however this issue shows up in more than just PvP.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
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  19. #39
    This problem is made worse by the fact that so many dps specs are so good at AoE. The worst culprit is DH, who can even use superior AoE to get healing from orbs! So no need to even use GCD to heal.

    It seems as if Blizzard has decided to say that “Fun = AoE”. A lot of the PvE gameplay is now build on that. It’s also build on “Immunities > DR” and “Leech > healing” and so we get gameplay looking like Diablo III.

    I think Feral abilities should be developed further and be more fun - but it would be nice if the whole PvE meta was dialed back from the AoE fest (including lots of AoE stuns!), with passive leech and automatic immunities ruling everything.

    The PvE gameplay should be more focused on killing targets single target. There should be a greater need to continously CC certain mobs to ensure tank survival. Tank damage should be dialed back to 25% of a dps spec. Leech and immunities should be nerfed, making healers more important. We should be more dependant on each role doing its job, instead of some classes being almost self-sustained.

  20. #40

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