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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Varolyn View Post
    Sub is just a wash in BFA. Bad in pvp and extremely niche and gimmicky in over. From my understanding, sub might have decent ST dps in 8.1 because the first dance trait is currently overtuned but that is gonna get nerfed. The spec is pretty much what survival was in HFC; dead and blizz will do nothing about because (hopefully) a rework is planned for the spec. I would argue that the spec should be built from the ground up because so much of the stuff that made it work in Legion is gone.
    What? Sub is amazing in M+ with Secret Technique and will likely still be going forward in 8.1.

    Perhaps a bit niche in raid environments, but there is always going to be the "better spec" overall for a 3 DPS class. Nevertheless, Sub is excellent for adds on Fetid, obviously it's the go to for Zul, solid on G'huun, better than Sin but not as good as Outlaw on Mother.
    Spike Flail - US Mal'Ganis | Currently 11/11 M | Art by ElyPop

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Crookids View Post
    What? Sub is amazing in M+ with Secret Technique and will likely still be going forward in 8.1.

    Perhaps a bit niche in raid environments, but there is always going to be the "better spec" overall for a 3 DPS class. Nevertheless, Sub is excellent for adds on Fetid, obviously it's the go to for Zul, solid on G'huun, better than Sin but not as good as Outlaw on Mother.
    It really isn't that great in M+, unless if your entire group plays around the fact that you are a sub rogue. Secret Technique needs to deal more damage, specifically on the main target (which is suppose to be sub's "niche"). There is a reason why there are far more assassination rogues in M+ compared to sub rogues. You can still do very good damage without the group playing around you and even in those perfect scenarios for sub, it isn't that much better than assassination. Why put a ton of more effort when the results are almost the same?

    Yes, you can play sub right now in M+. But it is definitely gonna be weaker in 8.1 unless if blizz buffs Secret technique damage or give a very large buff to shuriken storm itself.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crookids View Post
    What? Sub is amazing in M+ with Secret Technique and will likely still be going forward in 8.1.

    Perhaps a bit niche in raid environments, but there is always going to be the "better spec" overall for a 3 DPS class. Nevertheless, Sub is excellent for adds on Fetid, obviously it's the go to for Zul, solid on G'huun, better than Sin but not as good as Outlaw on Mother.
    Sub is good in M+ soley because of the mechanic that is being removed. The only reason to play sub over sin/outlaw is for killing specific adds fast in a specific dungeon, coupled with fortified weeks. Take that away and whats left? Sure you can still burst a target with SD but no where near the same output as you can currently with SC and sin/outlaw just does everything better.

    If sub is going to perform in 8.1 M+ anywhere near the other two specs then adjusting a talent like ST is the way to go, but how they will have it interact without it just becoming crimson tempest 2.0 i've no idea.

    Maybe for x seconds after using ST every eviscerate explodes a shadow nova or something like that.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    Sub is good in M+ soley because of the mechanic that is being removed. The only reason to play sub over sin/outlaw is for killing specific adds fast in a specific dungeon, coupled with fortified weeks. Take that away and whats left? Sure you can still burst a target with SD but no where near the same output as you can currently with SC and sin/outlaw just does everything better.

    If sub is going to perform in 8.1 M+ anywhere near the other two specs then adjusting a talent like ST is the way to go, but how they will have it interact without it just becoming crimson tempest 2.0 i've no idea.

    Maybe for x seconds after using ST every eviscerate explodes a shadow nova or something like that.
    I'm sorry, I misspoke. Yeah, it doesn't look good with storm being removed in 8.1. My comments were more inline with what he was saying about Sub in it's current state.
    Spike Flail - US Mal'Ganis | Currently 11/11 M | Art by ElyPop

  5. #125
    Not sure it’s a knee jerk reaction when 1 spec equals 2+ other players simply from the way 1 ability works.

  6. #126
    The Insane RobertoCarlos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Not sure it’s a knee jerk reaction when 1 spec equals 2+ other players simply from the way 1 ability works.
    Oh nonsense.

    Sub has been stripped of all complexity what is even the point of the spec anymore? Why cant rogue have at least skill based spec. Outlaw and assassin are faceroll.

    Yeah yeah Rng on outlaw is "complex" about as complex as rerolling untill RNG smiles in your favor. They have done nothing but remove from sub and give it nothing.

    Can we PLEASE have skills that can used in complex ways to fully utilize the class and make noobs want to be pros and make pros interested in the game again.

    Maybe? Call me maybe? PLease????
    "Did I ever tell you how I got the nickname the dragon of the west?" - Uncle Iroh

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    Oh nonsense.

    Sub has been stripped of all complexity what is even the point of the spec anymore? Why cant rogue have at least skill based spec. Outlaw and assassin are faceroll.

    Yeah yeah Rng on outlaw is "complex" about as complex as rerolling untill RNG smiles in your favor. They have done nothing but remove from sub and give it nothing.

    Can we PLEASE have skills that can used in complex ways to fully utilize the class and make noobs want to be pros and make pros interested in the game again.

    Maybe? Call me maybe? PLease????
    Imagine thinking Sub was challenging spec lol

  8. #128
    The Insane RobertoCarlos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NtflxnChill View Post
    Imagine thinking Sub was challenging spec lol
    said by a player that never knew a time when raiding wasnt 11111,2,11111,2,11111,2

    and snapshotting existed, and interesting trinkets. THaNKS n GoodNyte
    "Did I ever tell you how I got the nickname the dragon of the west?" - Uncle Iroh

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    said by a player that never knew a time when raiding wasnt 11111,2,11111,2,11111,2

    and snapshotting existed, and interesting trinkets. THaNKS n GoodNyte
    I bet you think DBW was an intereting trinket.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by NtflxnChill View Post
    I bet you think DBW was an intereting trinket.
    still better than that garbage you get from ghuun. most trinkets in bfa atm are boring as fuck.

  11. #131
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    IMO, the decline of interesting trinkets is that the majority of the player base are too retarded to maximise the usesage effectivley resulting in the Mythic level of players being punished.

    Blizzards own statement about trinkets only serves to support this when they said that Sims should not be followed so closely as the majority of the player base cannot play to that standard which inflates the value of some trinkets over others.

    Ergo we have lack luster trinkets that are the way they because the latter means you have trinkets that appear underpowered in some ppls hands but overpowered in others making them far harder to balance.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    Oh nonsense.

    Sub has been stripped of all complexity what is even the point of the spec anymore? Why cant rogue have at least skill based spec. Outlaw and assassin are faceroll.

    Yeah yeah Rng on outlaw is "complex" about as complex as rerolling untill RNG smiles in your favor. They have done nothing but remove from sub and give it nothing.

    Can we PLEASE have skills that can used in complex ways to fully utilize the class and make noobs want to be pros and make pros interested in the game again.

    Maybe? Call me maybe? PLease????
    Your response is comparing something to what I stated that makes no sense. Complexity doesn’t exist in the comment I made. Fights like Zul makes Sub OP from the use of 1 ability. They literally equal 2-4 dps depending on what your damage breakdown is. I’m not saying Sub doesn’t deserve to do well, but having 1 ability cause that much of a disparity isn’t exactly a knee jerk reaction.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Iettlopp View Post
    still better than that garbage you get from ghuun. most trinkets in bfa atm are boring as fuck.
    Aren't first tier trinkets boring in every expansion tho? Then tend to become a bit more creative in the later tiers.


    Btw saw they buffed shuriken storm a bit, didn't seem very dramatic in ways of compensating tho.
    Does seem like they intend to shift the damage to direct aoe.

    Shuriken Storm Sprays shurikens at all targets within 10 yards, dealing [(18%20.7% of Attack power) * ((Attack power + Offhand attack power) * 2 / 3) / Attack power] Physical damage
    Last edited by Shenjin; 2018-12-07 at 05:22 PM.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Shenjin View Post
    Shuriken Storm Sprays shurikens at all targets within 10 yards, dealing [(18%20.7% of Attack power) * ((Attack power + Offhand attack power) * 2 / 3) / Attack power] Physical damage
    LMAO the great FoK damage buff meme never dies, I love it.

  15. #135
    So it was real, lol deadspec. 35% dmg increased to one of the weakest aoe spells in the game, gtfo blizzard. fucking shit devs

  16. #136
    Shuriken Combo (baseline passive) removed.
    Shuriken Storm damage increased by 35%.

    This is indeed a joke. Completely removing what made Sub unique and useful with some band-aid nonsense over one raid encounter.
    Spike Flail - US Mal'Ganis | Currently 11/11 M | Art by ElyPop

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Crookids View Post
    Completely removing what made Sub unique and useful with some band-aid nonsense over one raid encounter.
    Actually I don't think this is only about Zul. Zul might have been a high profile showcase of what Sub rogues are capable of. I really think this change has been decided on with high M+ dungeons in mind. I'm not saying I agree with this but I believe Blizzard might have made this change because they didn't like how doing high keys with a Sub rogue involves some very "original and unusual" strategies by keeping adds alive/kiting trash to bosses just so Shuriken Combo can be used to burn down high hp priority targets/bosses. Maybe they thought there would be complaints when in next MDI every group has to bring at least 1 Sub rogue to compete. Maybe they thought it would be considered "too OP" and "mandatory" by competitive M+ players. Again I don't agree with this. Doing high keys in this fashion with Shuriken Combo required very careful planning and skill of all members of the group to maximize this tactic's gain. Mistakes can be costly so pulling it off should be rewarding. It's sad that they decided to just remove it. At least Sub will still be the best rogue spec for short (5-10 seconds) burst damage situations.

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todesbote View Post
    Actually I don't think this is only about Zul. Zul might have been a high profile showcase of what Sub rogues are capable of. I really think this change has been decided on with high M+ dungeons in mind. I'm not saying I agree with this but I believe Blizzard might have made this change because they didn't like how doing high keys with a Sub rogue involves some very "original and unusual" strategies by keeping adds alive/kiting trash to bosses just so Shuriken Combo can be used to burn down high hp priority targets/bosses. Maybe they thought there would be complaints when in next MDI every group has to bring at least 1 Sub rogue to compete. Maybe they thought it would be considered "too OP" and "mandatory" by competitive M+ players. Again I don't agree with this. Doing high keys in this fashion with Shuriken Combo required very careful planning and skill of all members of the group to maximize this tactic's gain. Mistakes can be costly so pulling it off should be rewarding. It's sad that they decided to just remove it. At least Sub will still be the best rogue spec for short (5-10 seconds) burst damage situations.
    Yep!

    So they gut the spec of the very same unique niche method of doing damage they so agressivley pushed in legion against many rogues opinion of gives us normal working aoe, and are now punishing sub players by gutting thier spec for not listening to the playerbase.

    Todays shortsighted devs are really killing this game. They need to understand that it doesnt matter how pretty the new zones are or how good the raids or dungeons are, these are all secondary to class design which is the core of the game or should be, how did they forget about this!?

  19. #139
    Getting closer to WoW mobile

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Osanger View Post
    Yep!

    So they gut the spec of the very same unique niche method of doing damage they so agressivley pushed in legion against many rogues opinion of gives us normal working aoe, and are now punishing sub players by gutting thier spec for not listening to the playerbase.

    Todays shortsighted devs are really killing this game. They need to understand that it doesnt matter how pretty the new zones are or how good the raids or dungeons are, these are all secondary to class design which is the core of the game or should be, how did they forget about this!?
    Today's devs just don't know what they want to do with the game. First they want to make class uniqueness, then they want to streamline things, then they want class identity, then they want to streamline things... they need to put down some goals and go through with them instead of changing their mind every third second.

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