Volcanic ruined raider.io and m+

[vsb]

I would like to suggest some improvements for Raider.io score. Currently there are 2 problems which could be solved:
1. Dungeon without score gimping your overall score too much. You can clear 5 dungeons with +10 and having the same score as someone cleared all dungeons with +5. That's wrong.
2. Affixes are unbalanced. It means that there's no point to farm score on hard weeks. And it really shows, leaderboards are not nearly as full on hard weeks. People are just skipping those. And score is the same for all affixes which is wrong too.

The idea is:
1. Maintain different score for each affix and dungeon combination. Your overall score is sum of that.
2. Use some averaged score for each unscored combination.

So you start with 0 score. You're finishing a single dungeon for +10 getting 100 score. So you're getting 100 score for this dungeon and this week affix. Every other dungeon automatically gets 50% of that, so you'll have 50 points for every other dungeon and affix combination and your other affixes for scored dungeon are getting 80% of your highest score, so you'll get 80 score for this dungeon and all other affixes. As you're filling more dungeons (if you can finish +10, surely you can do better than +5 with any other dungeon, so there's room to improve), you'll get higher scores and if you've got +12 on easy week, you still can do the same dungeon on hard week for +10 to slightly improve your score.

Coefficients and formulas may be adjusted of course.

The only problem with this approach is buyers. Single high-level buyer run will award a lot of score. So may be there should be some adjustments like requiring 3 runs, etc.

[Twdft]

Every other dungeon automatically gets 50% of that,

raider.io is there to document what you actually have accomplished in the game, giving points for dungeons you did not run is the complete opposite. Just because you know dungeon A doesn't mean you know anything about dungeon B.

Also, on one hand you say not running a dungeon gimps your score but then suggest needing score from every possible affix combination. Seems weird.

[vsb]

raider.io is there to document what you actually have accomplished in the game, giving points for dungeons you did not run is the complete opposite. Just because you know dungeon A doesn't mean you know anything about dungeon B.

If you're a competent player, you'll be OK in a new dungeon. And you can always check specific dungeon if you're worried about it.

Also, on one hand you say not running a dungeon gimps your score but then suggest needing score from every possible affix combination. Seems weird.

It's not weird. You need score from every possible affix to have a reason to even play on hard weeks. Currently there's 0 reason. If I'm pushing +12 on easy weeks, I won't even make it in timer on hard week, so I'll do Atal +10 and forget about it. On the other hand system should not punish those who did not complete every dungeon. If I'm applying to Atal +10 having 100 score, it's very unlikely that I'll be invited even if I've got those 100 score points from this dungeon. You'll see those 1000+ score requirements everywhere, not 120+ this dungeon. This is how players use this system, so system should adapt.

[munkeyinorbit]

Thanks to a fairly under-tuned m+ affix with volcanic and raging (or any combination of volcanic) it is no longer safe to "assume/guesstimate" skill-level based on someones raider.io score. Do you think raider.io should implement a feature where you can possibly see a players score with one of the two affixes of that particular week? This is currently possible on their website to filter out only specific combinations, but for me I would think showing players scores from a similar week.

E.G.
It's a sanguine necrotic week and I am trying to organize a group. Currently a tank can apply and I have to manually check if he has any experience with necrotic OR sanguine on his account or main, as someone who can have 1.3k score from those volcanic weeks does not necessarily have to be able to manage this weeks affixes. I would much rather prefer if the add on itself showed me their best score from a week of sanguine and a best score of a necrotic week if they haven't done those two together.

Do you think this would once again upset the entire player-base who think .io is a plague? I believe it could give the initiative to get better at specific affixes and also improve your score week by week basis feeling like even a +10 on a week where you haven't done one is an upgrade.

NO

Make your own website and get 1000s of people to click it. Until then shut the fuck up.

[Will]

The rock pelters in Nelth's Lair come to mind, along with the worms that only moved when they felt like it.
Although I would categorize that type of stuff as problematic in the first place, because it just leaves tanks that can easily displace mobs as the "go to" for things like this.
Almost like why Blood DKs are the most popular when they have two mob yanks and a pretty strong aoe slow.

Those pelters were easy. All the tank had to do (outside skittish) was hit them a few times and run away. The breakers or whatever who did the avalanche of rocks ability too. Hit them a few times and start running away, using LoS if necessary. The mobs would cast none of their abilities and throw NO rocks when chasing after the tank. Made them from some of the hardest M+ trash into some of the easiest.

[D3athsting]

Lower khara/triumvirate with teeming+explosive+fortified... KAPPA

[dacoolist]

I JUST finally, like SCRUBKNIGHT level over 9000 just got my Battle for Azeroth Keystone Conqueror: Season One ( https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch...ength/dungeons ) - It sounds like you all do like 20's in time and shit from the way everyone speaks.. I felt like doing shrine in time was like the highlight of my mythic+ career LOL

How does it feel everyone on MMO-C.com doing like M+20's and shit.. or is this just all talking shit and people are REALLY only doing 5's and acting hard I wonder..?

- - - Updated - - -

You're not an elitist for thinking raider.io is a good system.
It's pretty clear you don't do even +10 keys

btw pretty jelly of your druid..

Any pro tips from a pug'er like myself to becoming better than just the bare minimum (10's in time), as in: How did you start progressing to getting 15's in time etc (Sorry for this being off topic)

[ID811717]

Any pro tips from a pug'er like myself to becoming better than just the bare minimum (10's in time), as in: How did you start progressing to getting 15's in time etc (Sorry for this being off topic)

Become a masochist.

No, really. You need to be a bit of a masochist for that. And have a thick skin.

The last thing you want to do as a healer is blame the group and rage quit from fiesta runs. Because you can get a ton of experience from any bad group. Never give up, use all CDs on a shit pull and try to save the day. No one will appreciate you doing that in a shit group (you might even get blamed for something). But when you join a good group and save the key in a similar situation, people will add you to friend list and do more keys with you again. In a perfect run with a perfect group, a healer might have the smallest role of all. The pugs mostly need you so you can fix everything when things go wrong. So you need to feel very comfortable handling the worst possible oh-shit situations.

I think that is the key to eventually getting into very high key pugs as a healer. But then again... It only works for masochists.

[Tziva]

How does it feel everyone on MMO-C.com doing like M+20's and shit.. or is this just all talking shit and people are REALLY only doing 5's and acting hard I wonder..?

MMOC definitely skews towards the more serious/dedicated players in pretty much all focuses of the game. And to a large degree, that makes sense; super casual people probably aren't thinking much about the game outside of being logged in and probably aren't going to spend extra time in their day talking about playing when they aren't playing. Just by virtue of caring enough to do that, you probably also care enough to theorycraft or push harder content or grind longer or whatever. But a lot of us are just people who are invested in the game and aren't "top tier" anything and aren't pretending otherwise.

The highest I've done on time this expansion is a 12, and aside from a few 11s and 12s, the rest are only 10s. Last expansion, the highest I did in time was a 16 and the only reason I even did any 15+ was to get the artifact transmog on various alts. I've never even attempted higher than a 17. I'll probably use this easy week to try to beat some of my times because idgaf if it looks "bad" to have volcanic showing as an affix on any of my times.

So, yeah, definitely not pro elite and don't pretend otherwise.

[Mang]

play with friends

[sharteel]

Raider.io is ruined by people buying +10/15 boosts, not by affixes...even a easy week like this one requires you to not fuck up boss mechanics, and oh boy how many people above 1.2/1.3k fail on easy bosses...

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Naw, what ruined m+ for anything but with a dedicated group / friends is this hyper need to fixate on mistakes and get into an ever escalating need to assign blame though insults during a run. It has made everyone very defensive. I mean I get it, if a wipe causes a key to not be done in time things happen. Some boohoo finger pointing happens and that is that. But sometimes its a SINGLE MOB gets pulled, the key will be completed in time easily still, but someone has to rip someones head off to the point of quitting and the key is done over it. I mean damn, I tank most my pug runs in m+ and I see this odd need to just destroy people for things that are very easy to fix during the course of a run. I mean, its ok, I just pick up that extra mob and have to use a cooldown. No need to explode on the healer and make the dude quit and blow the key. I see this happening more and more in pug runs.

[Yunaqt]

I should really try knock out the +15 achieve before the season ends >.<

But I still need so many...

https://raider.io/characters/us/frostmourne/Yunaesta

[Taenaeris]

One huge problem with M+ in BFA is the complete lack of any valuable in-game rewards. Once you're 380+ and running keys in the 12-14 range, then increasing your IO score is pretty much the only thing left for you to do.

In Legion, there was the Legendary system (with Legendaries remaining relevant throughout the entire expansion) and it's bad luck protection mechanism. So massively farming M+ dungeons early on (regardless of timer) provided you with long-lasting rewards in the form of Legendaries - especially due to the fact that running M+ dungeons was the only way of farming them.

This kept M+'s relevant throughout the entire expansion - and there was also an incentive to actually finish an instance rather than quitting and instantly joining another run. In addition to that, max-level M+ dungeons were the only way outside of Mythic Raiding to get the highest item level gear (except for the odd Titanforged item of course).

These days - after you've done your highest possible weekly key - the gear that drops at the end of the run is pretty much completely useless and the AP is not worth it due to Island Expeditions - so the only reason to actually finish a M+ run is to improve your IO score. Once you can't do that anymore and it isn't your own key, you're usually better of just quitting - even if it would only take you an approximate ~15 minutes or so to finish, the reward at the end is just not worth even that little time investment.

- - - Updated - - -

Raider.io is ruined by people buying +10/15 boosts, not by affixes...even a easy week like this one requires you to not fuck up boss mechanics, and oh boy how many people above 1.2/1.3k fail on easy bosses...

The entire PUG'ing scene is essentially flooded with people who're just looking for free carries. Back in Legion, it was customary not to ask for an IO score above your own and people would also generally agree to get on Discord when doing more difficult keys.

These days, I see a lot of people having like 1k score with one +15 done in time, a few +12's and everything else +10 or lower - asking for 1500+ score to run a +12 Tol Dagor. And people also seem to look more at the raw number rather than the per-dungeon values.

Naw, what ruined m+ for anything but with a dedicated group / friends is this hyper need to fixate on mistakes and get into an ever escalating need to assign blame though insults during a run. It has made everyone very defensive. I mean I get it, if a wipe causes a key to not be done in time things happen. Some boohoo finger pointing happens and that is that. But sometimes its a SINGLE MOB gets pulled, the key will be completed in time easily still, but someone has to rip someones head off to the point of quitting and the key is done over it. I mean damn, I tank most my pug runs in m+ and I see this odd need to just destroy people for things that are very easy to fix during the course of a run. I mean, its ok, I just pick up that extra mob and have to use a cooldown. No need to explode on the healer and make the dude quit and blow the key. I see this happening more and more in pug runs.

As I've explained above, the underlying issue it that it is not worth anybody's time anymore to complete a M+ run outside of improving one's IO score. So if a run starts badly - even if it's just a tiny little mistake - it's often best to quit immediately yourself instead of wasting time just to see somebody else quit.

Combine this with the current situation where people are essentially asking you to have a +14 completed in time to run a +12 - it means that for many M+ runs that you join anything but a perfect run is completely worthless.

[sharteel]

I should really try knock out the +15 achieve before the season ends >.<

But I still need so many...

https://raider.io/characters/us/frostmourne/Yunaesta

Ouch...I'm missing 5 (KR, SotS, ToS, SoB and TD), and I'm worried I won't be able to do ToS since everyone wants to cheese it now...and I'm no rogue/druid XD

[Low Hanging Fruit]

As I've explained above, the underlying issue it that it is not worth anybody's time anymore to complete a M+ run outside of improving one's IO score. So if a run starts badly - even if it's just a tiny little mistake - it's often best to quit immediately yourself instead of wasting time just to see somebody else quit.

Combine this with the current situation where people are essentially asking you to have a +14 completed in time to run a +12 - it means that for many M+ runs that you join anything but a perfect run is completely worthless.

So, I mean, I guess IO is just a toxic as fuck addon then?

[VanishingAct]

Dunno its people with your thinking that has shitted up WoW to this point. Keep going though there are still some subscribers left to get rid of.

[gutnbrg]

how many more addons does this game freakin need? Not every m+ pug is gonna go well...if ur that concerned why not just have a constant grp of friends or guildees that u know u can trust? Everything cant always be perfect...

[Super Kami Dende]

Am I strange for being someone that has done legitimate M+15's yet has never touched the Raider.io Website at all?

[Marrilaife]

The entire PUG'ing scene is essentially flooded with people who're just looking for free carries. Back in Legion, it was customary not to ask for an IO score above your own and people would also generally agree to get on Discord when doing more difficult keys.

These days, I see a lot of people having like 1k score with one +15 done in time, a few +12's and everything else +10 or lower - asking for 1500+ score to run a +12 Tol Dagor. And people also seem to look more at the raw number rather than the per-dungeon values.

As I've explained above, the underlying issue it that it is not worth anybody's time anymore to complete a M+ run outside of improving one's IO score. So if a run starts badly - even if it's just a tiny little mistake - it's often best to quit immediately yourself instead of wasting time just to see somebody else quit.

Combine this with the current situation where people are essentially asking you to have a +14 completed in time to run a +12 - it means that for many M+ runs that you join anything but a perfect run is completely worthless.

Yeah, I don't know what happened really. In Legion, it was much more common for groups to ask for discord, even for dungeons around 15-17 level (which is basically around 10-12 now, since weekly chest used to be +15, now it's +10). We supposedly have in-game voice chat, no one uses that either. Most groups don't want any form of communication except maybe "do you have a route in method dungeon tools", which is a replacement for communication, but won't help if something goes south and the pulls get deviated from the imported string.

Most groups want cookie cutter setup (dk tank, rogue / dh / mage / boomie dps etc.) and cookie cutter strat, so no communication or deviation from meta would occur.

And yes, about half the leaders ask for raider.io they don't have themselves, be it 900 asking for 1.2k or 1.2k asking for 1.4k, same thing. Basically "carry me because I believe I'm worth more score than I have", based on what, no one knows. If you're worth more score than you think, so is every other guy of your score you're declining, eh?

I think one of the funnier memories I have from Legion pugging was +14 hov I've joined with the purpose of upgrading the key and getting weekly 15 done, and it turned into lower kara, that apparently no one in the group knew well at all. We decided to stick to it, get on discord and try to complete it no matter what. It took us 1,5 hour but no one left. At some point we had to pause the run and recheck strat for a boss because we were wiping and no one knew exactly why. It was a learning experience for everyone involved.

That's such a contrast to hearing all the bfa stories of constant leavers because 1 small thing deviated from the pre-defined path.

So, I mean, I guess IO is just a toxic as fuck addon then?

Helps with avoiding groups where douchebags ask for score they don't even have themselves, i.e. expecting a carry.

Am I strange for being someone that has done legitimate M+15's yet has never touched the Raider.io Website at all?

In pugs? Or with friends / guild?