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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Aoyi View Post
    They actually had a version of this in previous expansions. I can't remember if it was MoP or Warlords, but an item could "titanforge" to a certain max item level on its own. If it didn't, you could pay to upgrade that item at a vendor with a currency you collected. Those that got the titanforge got the upgrade for free, but others could upgrade them as well over time.
    Ya but then sucked when u just finished upgrading a piece and then a slightly better piece dropped. But you couldn't equip it right away because only the fully upgraded piece would be better. So you had to grind it all out again and then equip it.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Ya but then sucked when u just finished upgrading a piece and then a slightly better piece dropped. But you couldn't equip it right away because only the fully upgraded piece would be better. So you had to grind it all out again and then equip it.
    Oh I agree, but we also knew the cap was "I believe" 15 item levels or so, so there was not chance something from the last tiers would be a bigger upgrade. I had a list of BiS gear I knew I'd be farming for in the next raid. There might be 2 pairs of gloves or 2 belts in a tier for me, but I'd only spend my currency to upgrade them if it was the one on my BiS list.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnok View Post
    One of the main issues people seem to have with Warcraft is titanforging. For example I had 2 370 trinkets on my DH about an hour after I hit 120, got a titanforge from world boss, and harlan's dice titanforged in a normal mythic my guild ran me through. Getting loot that high for really no effort is an issue just because of the rng involved. What if a currency was added for titanforging. You could collect it from emissary caches, can randomly drop in world chests, first heroic of the day, last boss on M+ (higher the key more currency you get), and the weekly M+ cache. When you obtain enough of this currency you get a chance to auto-titanforge your next piece of loot. It will still follow the titanforging rules, weapons can only warforge and azerite armor won't titanforge. The more content you do the more titanforges you can get and you can target titanforges. Would kind of replace end of legion legendary currency.
    If you're going to have a TF currency then a better mechanism would be a random reroll on gear.

    The problem with what you're proposing is that it basically brings us back to the point of farming until BiS, which was just a shitty system. With BiS you have everyone chasing exactly the same goal, not because it makes any actual sense, but because is the endpoint defined by the game. The problem is that not everyone in the game is the same. For some, the pursuit of BiS ends too soon. They want to keep playing, but once they've reached BiS then there just seem to be any point. For others they want to stop sooner, but because of BiS they feel compelled to keep grinding - which leads to resentment.

    The wonderful thing about TF is that you get to decide your own endpoint based on goals you set for yourself, tailored to your own requirements. If you've cleared the current tier and been farming it for 2 months, there is absolutely zero need to continue if you want to take break. Conversely, if you're a player who wants to keep farming until the start of the next tier, you will be rewarded for your efforts.

    The idea of "rerolls" would be as follows:
    • Clearing content gives you currency towards a reroll. The harder the content the more currency is earned
    • There is a weekly cap on the amount of currency you can earn
    • Any piece of gear can be rerolled. It has the same chance of TF/socketing/auxilliary stats as a fresh drop
    • The cost in reroll currency to reroll on an item is based on it's base ilevel (so rerolling on a mythic raid drop will cost more than rerolling an LFR piece)
    • The player can elect to keep the result of the reroll or revert to the original drop

    Such a system would absolutely serve to help cancel out "bad luck" but would not force players to pursue BiS. Think of your own (probably embellished/fictitious) example of getting 2x370 trinkets in your first hour of dinging 120: You could farm as much as you like for upgrade currency, but it's unlikely to improve those items, while the other 99.99% of players who got closer to the expected luck, now have a decent chance of closing the gap a bit.

  4. #24
    I think anything that moved the dial away from RNG and toward more deterministic gearing would be an improvement, personally.

    Make WF +5 and TF +10 and add currency you can apply to upgrade baseline pieces of gear. Make nothing WF and TF randomly and I think you have a much improved system that has reasonable longevity, encourages people to continue playing content they wouldn't otherwise (for WF/TF currency rather than a random chance at +40 TF gear), and gives players a sense of agency by deciding which pieces of gear to use the currency on.

    The randomness of the current gear system is something that players have had issues with since Legion, but Legion had much better overall content compared to BFA so the complaints were essentially drowned out. Now the complaints are coming much more to the surface since subs are dropping like flies and BFA is an inferior expansion so far, content wise.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Pilek01 View Post
    There is a way to fix titanforging.
    - Limit titanforge to max +15.
    - Add back Valor Points with a weekly cap of 1000 vp.
    - 50 vp per boss kill 100 vp ber mythic + completed, 10 vp for each World Quest. (Killing 8 bosses each week, finishing 3 m+ and doing 30 WQ each week for cap sounds ok)
    - Every item can be upgraded by 3 times, each time by 5 ilvl. Price per upgrade is 500 vp.
    - A item that titanforged +15 can't be upgraded anymore. A item that titanforged by 10 ilvl can be upgraded one time with valor points. etc.


    This way some people still can be lucky and get a bunch of titanforged items but the people who had no luck can slowly work towards upgrading their items.
    stop making sense. its the 2010's, that shit aint allowed.

  6. #26
    i got a 395 ring + socket from Mother on my warrior tank alt that i hardly use, i think is not that good for him anyway :/.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevernude View Post
    Titanforging is supposed to be a rare, random reward. Something you have no control over. Imagine having to grind out some stuff in order to upgrade every piece of gear, that didn't Titanforge, multiple times. Doesn't sound fun to me. Just be happy when something Titanforges. It's on top of what you would normally get and bosses aren't balanced around having Titanforged gear.
    People will always, ALWAYS, set the metrics by the absolute best. Blizzard may not understand that, but that's just how it works. Yes, it may not be 'necessary', but getting those Titanforged gear pieces means faster clears, fewer wipes, and quicker progression.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nazrark View Post
    I would still go with Valor coming back. Warforging giving you 1/2 and Titanforging giving you 2/2. Just letting you get ahead by not spending Valor to upgrade gear.
    Exactly this. It worked just fine in MoP, so they should bring it back. They could even make it three or four stages if they wanted people to really work at it. First stage is a small boost, second stage is Warforged, third stage is another small boost, and fourth stage is Titanforged.

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  8. #28
    There is nothing wrong with the TF system as implemented.
    Gawd save us from yet another currency grind. Nightmares of 'needing to cap weekly' resurface. Can it get more boring?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    Yes, it may not be 'necessary', but getting those Titanforged gear pieces means faster clears, fewer wipes, and quicker progression.
    Yeah, that's like driving 200 miles and spending a fuc-a-ton on fuel just because the burgers there are 10c cheaper. XD

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevernude View Post
    Titanforging is supposed to be a rare, random reward. Something you have no control over. Imagine having to grind out some stuff in order to upgrade every piece of gear, that didn't Titanforge, multiple times. Doesn't sound fun to me. Just be happy when something Titanforges. It's on top of what you would normally get and bosses aren't balanced around having Titanforged gear.
    there actually is an example of this (kind of). in mop, valor points where still a thing and you had to farm the weekly cap (i think it was 1k valor) and when you got gear, you could upgrade it twice for a total of 500 valor. it was basically farmable warforging as well as having warforging. it wasn't overly popular.

  10. #30
    While I like the idea of being able to upgrade items, I also hate the idea of having to make a cap every week. The problem now is the extreme of either you get an extremely lucky titanforged item or you never see them and you fall behind and get disappointed by a long string of bad luck. Being able to upgrade them to keep with people who get lucky streaks is a good idea, but having to clear 8 dungeons a week, or all the bosses in a raid or two, winning 12 PVP matches, or whatever isn't. The only way to do this without it being a major grind is to make it a very tiny amount needed to upgrade, but then people get all the gear and upgrade it and within a few weeks they don't need anything until the next tier so they stop playing.

    Not to mention, random sockets further complicated things. I abhor the fact that I get an item level upgrade, but its actually garbage because my 10 ilvl lower item is better purely because of a random chance that I got a socket.

    My solution would be to move sockets back to blacksmithing and only allow it on certain items like they do with enchanting or some other profession. Maybe all 3 armor crafters get their own specific armor type like Socket - Plate Gloves (Blacksmith). Provide a once a week token that comes from any form of play: winning a PVP match (might add a small % to gain it through losing, but that might lead to abusive behavior), add it to the end of a dungeon (heroic or higher), killing a raid boss (time for Timear to reappear?), or a cache from doing your world quests for the day. The token would be used to upgrade your item 5 item levels or something, to prevent someone from hording a bunch of tokens and spamming it on an item later maybe set a duration for how long they last, maybe 48 hours of actual play (so people who might not be able to log in for a week could still hold on to it for a time).

    I would prefer they relinquish SOME of the upgrades back into the player's hands. It feels good to get that huge titanforged item once in a great while, but it feels abysmal to get something that is higher item and its worse due to sockets and now you can't trade it since item level is the only determining factor.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by HuxNeva View Post
    There is nothing wrong with the TF system as implemented.
    Gawd save us from yet another currency grind. Nightmares of 'needing to cap weekly' resurface. Can it get more boring?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yeah, that's like driving 200 miles and spending a fuc-a-ton on fuel just because the burgers there are 10c cheaper. XD
    we have different ideas of boring.

    log on for 5 minutes, do 1 world quest and get a 390 piece of gear.

    or

    log on for 20-30 minutes, farm up some materials that are useful in the long run and possibly meet people, make friends, farm up other materials you happen to pass by, collect some possible xmog, etc.

    i feel like titanforging is draining a lot of the fun and longevity out of the game. people who have no business doing a +5 just get tons of forged gear, hit a wall they aren't prepared for and then complain the game is too hard. also, forged gear isn't rare at all. on my heroic raiding hunter (axeperson-aggamaggan) 9 of my pieces of gear are forged and one of them is a 390 pants. if 4 of the slots weren't locked into no forging at all (helm, shoulders, chest, neck) i'm sure i'd have even more.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by aceperson View Post
    we have different ideas of boring.

    log on for 5 minutes, do 1 world quest and get a 390 piece of gear.

    or

    log on for 20-30 minutes, farm up some materials that are useful in the long run and possibly meet people, make friends, farm up other materials you happen to pass by, collect some possible xmog, etc.

    i feel like titanforging is draining a lot of the fun and longevity out of the game. people who have no business doing a +5 just get tons of forged gear, hit a wall they aren't prepared for and then complain the game is too hard. also, forged gear isn't rare at all. on my heroic raiding hunter (axeperson-aggamaggan) 9 of my pieces of gear are forged and one of them is a 390 pants. if 4 of the slots weren't locked into no forging at all (helm, shoulders, chest, neck) i'm sure i'd have even more.
    You have been farming content for over 3 months now, and have one 390 (+20) to show for it? I guess that proves the rareness of TF.
    As far as I can tell you seem to have:
    - 2 +5's
    - 2 +10's
    - 1 +15's
    - 1 +20

    You can't count the guaranteed +10's from the M+ weekly as a forge as that is their base ilvl. They just used the guaranteed WF to avoid having to create a duplicate item.

    You are running HC raids (7/8) and M+ (up to 9) regularly, doing Arathi's when they are up and WQ's emissaries. Do you think your 375 ilvl is ridiculously inflated after 3 months of farming 370 sources?

    And that 'people hitting the wall in +5' was a failed reasoning from Preach. People don't fail M+ because they have +5 more ilvl and suddenly think they are gods, they fail it because they can't be bothered to learn M+ tactics but still want to 'cap' their weekly chest, so they just repeatedly go in the group finder hoping for free carries.
    Last edited by HuxNeva; 2018-12-06 at 04:23 PM.

  13. #33
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    Just pretend TF doesn't exist and act surprised and happy when you get one. That is how it was always intended and anyone expecting TF items is honestly just very entitled.
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  14. #34
    Terrible idea. We do not need another mandatory grind.

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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnok View Post
    One of the main issues people seem to have with Warcraft is titanforging. For example I had 2 370 trinkets on my DH about an hour after I hit 120, got a titanforge from world boss, and harlan's dice titanforged in a normal mythic my guild ran me through. Getting loot that high for really no effort is an issue just because of the rng involved. What if a currency was added for titanforging. You could collect it from emissary caches, can randomly drop in world chests, first heroic of the day, last boss on M+ (higher the key more currency you get), and the weekly M+ cache. When you obtain enough of this currency you get a chance to auto-titanforge your next piece of loot. It will still follow the titanforging rules, weapons can only warforge and azerite armor won't titanforge. The more content you do the more titanforges you can get and you can target titanforges. Would kind of replace end of legion legendary currency.
    I have suggested something similar in other threads. I am fine with the forging system but it would be nice if we could collect a currency from all forms of content that we could use to increase the item levels on individual pieces of gear. I currently feel right now that I have to do everything simply to be fishing for a forged piece of gear. I would guess many even mythic raiders feel the need to do this as well at least to a certain iLvL. I feel it adds to the burn out of the game, the dislike in current content and overall makes BfA feel like a chore than the amazing game it could be. If I didn't feel the need to do everything then I could focus on the parts of the game I like and not feel forced. Blizzard has in the past used the excuse of just don't do that content but in a reward based game where every single % increase matters it's hard to just say I don't want to have the best I can. Having a currency that allows us to have more control can only be seen as a good thing IMO and I don't see the downside for players or Blizz; unless of course Blizz's whole mind set is to keep us constantly doing the same content over and over with the hope we might get something better (essentially gambling).....in which case they should understand a lot better why people are currently upset with the game.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevernude View Post
    Luck averages out. There's no such thing as a guy who gets maximum Titanforges on every piece of gear and someone else never gets any item to Titanforge. If you flip a coin enough times, then you'll get heads roughly 50% of the time and tails as well.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Which wasn't a good thing. Why do you think they got rid of it? And it would be even worse with Titanforging. Do you want to upgrade something by 50 levels and grind points for months every day?
    It was a good thing. I would take the MoP/WoD loot system over Legion/BFA ANY day. Ofc, I would prefer WotLK/Cata (no coins or TFing of any kind) over the MoP system aswell, but that's another topic.

    Blizzard removed it because they like to fix things that aren't broken, and like to keep broken things unfixed for ages. TFing and all the random class/spec redesigns are perfect examples of that.


    TFing tried to fix something that wasn't an issue in the first place (the loot system from WotLK/Cata), and evolved into the abomination it is today, causing way more issues than it solves.

    As for classes, it feels like Blizzard keeps changing them for the sake of it. So many awesome iterations of the specs over the years that only needed finetuning going into the next expansion, only to receive a complete redesign instead, essentially starting all over again. And the "new" designs usually take 2 expansions before working properly again, only to get ANOTHER redesign when it finally becomes a functional spec compareable to the "first awesome version".


    Shadow was perfect in Cata, only to get completely redesigned for MoP. Then Shadow was shit in MoP, before WoD built on the MoP model and made Shadow a good spec again, only to be completely thrown away for another redesign going into Legion. The current version of Shadow being waaaaaaaay worse of than it was both in Cata and in WoD. That's only one example, the same thing has happened to a lot of classes/specs.
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnok View Post
    One of the main issues people seem to have with Warcraft is titanforging.
    No the problem people have is they think they need TF everything when just getting to the normal non-TF highest gear in a raid/pvp tier/season is good enough. Once players realize that you just need "good enough" gear instead of perfect "TF in every slot" gear, then the problem goes away.

    Similar to how a LFR casual might get a super rare TF 400 ilv item. That's 1 ilv 400 item among 15 ilv 340 gear whereas a Mythic raider might never get an ilv 400 item, but has 16 ilv 385 gear.

    Stop thinking that you need/deserve max-TF gear in all your slots and start realizing that once you get enough gear, you're effectively done with that tier until the next content patch and you'll be happier.
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  18. #38
    It would make sense to me. Just make the cost increase for each successive +5 ilvls and then have different amounts drop from different kinds of content. That way people can continue to progress outside of RNG.

  19. #39
    I dont think there should be any tiers to "Forging". There should just be the chance to roll a socket or some ilvl (+5, 10 or 15 depending on the slot) that is equivalent to the socket stats. ONE CHANCE not infinitely recursive.

    Then increase the odds of getting tertiary stats on your gear. Speed sets, leech sets are fun to hunt and gather and do not mess with ilvl or dps progression which is a huge problem with titanforging. Gearing for survivability is cool and something that is very lacking in WoW compared to other mmos and you cant just sim it. Its a choice - it adds agency.
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Not everything in the game needs to be turned into a soulless grind.
    Well, isn't this how it worked back in MoP? Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember many (if any) people complaining about the VP grind to level up gear (outside of complaints of the weekly cap).

    Regardless, I would argue that the "soulless grind" is also only a serious problem for min/maxers. As long as the content is appropriately tuned, then it's only a bonus.

    It just becomes a grind that you can control (you put in X amount of effort for a specific reward), instead of a RNG grind, where you can keep trying to get better items but might never be able to.


    Personally, as someone who don't cares about min/maxing, I'd still vastly prefer the vote point system with small upgrades. Sure it's a grind, but at least it's not a system that essentially makes me not care about gear at all because I have almost entirely no control over it other than keep hitting the slot machine.

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