Discussion thread: Balancing patches

[The Stormbringer]

No.

The entire point of having 1.12 is to have 1.12, not retail capped at level 60.

If you want "balancing", go play retail.

I find it amusing that to you, the concept of devs trying to make numbers less extreme for some classes is the exact same as playing retail, as if that was the only thing separating live from classic.

[storluffarn]

They'll most likely be forced to make some minor balance changes purely for gameplay reasons. In a static MMORPG, there's going to be a very, very strong bias to rolling the OP classes. I mean why play anything else when you know those other classes will always be subpar?

I do not doubt that the most important aspect is that the game should be classic, there should be no plethora of QoL changes, there should be quirks, unfairness, OP combos, there should be classes that are wildly different when it comes to viability in different areas of the game. Mages can't play Fire in Molten Core, etc etc.
But leaving classes underperforming, and saying "Well this is 1.12", I can sadly say that it won't stay so strong of an argument for long.

Unlike those private realms, you will expect Blizzard to be able to make changes with the tools they have. You don't expect private realms to do so. You don't complain (too much) about obvious spec unfairness on private realms, but I wonder how long that resolve stays when you know it's being run by Blizzard, and not an unsupported hobby project.

There'll eventually be some minor changes, and some balance tweaks seem unavoidable, if anything to combat the extreme bias towards warr/mage/rogue/priest we're going to see, but hopefully it won't be major enough to make it feel less genuine. A moonfire dot getting a 8% buff won't break the experience. A moonkin actually not being kicked from the raid for not being resto doesn't really break it either.

These are some excellent points and I agree with them wholeheartedly. In fact, I should probably clarify something from my last few posts: while I am actively promoting class balance, I am also all for different specs being useful during different parts of the game, as you put forward. Playing fire mage or destruction warlock in MC or when killing Onyxia doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and I'm fine with neither of these specs being used for raiding during this part of the game. What I'm not fine with is them never being strong in raids for the entire course of the game, it simply doesn't make sense to me. And there are numerous such examples, most obvious perhaps the Moonkin as exemplified in various posts above, but most classes have some branch of the talent tree with is simply not viable during any time of the game as it stands today, and that simply looks like bad game design to me. It's something that likely would have been fixed by the developers back then, and it's certainly something that should be fixed now in my opinion.

I think in general we tend to idealize 1.12 too much, we ought to remember that 1.12 was only live for 3 months, it might be the best version of vanilla there ever was, but it's certainly not the best version of vanilla that there could have been.

funny because private servers have had zero issues with playerbase despite many not being advertised at all.

private servers are free - most of them aren't ever advertised in any way either, otherwise it attracts attention to them. thus making them harder to find. despite this, they manage to have people playing them.

I for one don't think Classic will have any issues with attracting a player base. Quite the contrary, I think there will be a lot of players on the vanilla server(s) initially. However, I think it'll be harder to keep the players then it will be to attract them. A lot of players will probably come from retail and realize that the harsh environment of vanilla simply isn't their cup of tea (which I'm fine with for the record, that being one of the major reasons a lot of us want vanilla back in the first place). However, I think a lot of players that actually stick around will get bored/annoyed with a static vanilla over time. Perhaps even more so those of us who has played on private a server recently. I think for me personally, I'll definitely level a character to 60 and then start raiding. But afters some time I'm afraid I'll feel like I'm just be watching a replay what I did on the private server and I'll get bored. An easy way to alleviate this would be to make minor changes to balancing to keep the game alive and challenging. While that will likely upset some of the most fervorous puritans I'm quite sure less people will quit the game due to minor changes than due to it becoming stagnant.

I find it amusing that to you, the concept of devs trying to make numbers less extreme for some classes is the exact same as playing retail, as if that was the only thing separating live from classic.

I don't think they, or anyone else who's using this kind of arguments, is actually believing that. I think it's mostly a provokative / confrontational way of arguing. Not that I defend it, I think it's deteriorating to the discussion climate, but I usually try to reinterpret these posts in my head as something reasonable, in this case maybe: "balancing the classes could impair class identity and that might result in the game will becoming too much like retail, and I don't want that".

[The Stormbringer]

@storluffarn You definitely give them more credit than I do. It's good that you can do that, though. It shows that you're more than capable of trying to see another side's argument and extrapolate meaning even if it's worded poorly. I struggle there.

[storluffarn]

I tried getting the opinions of /r/classicwow on balancing patches, here's the discussion for anyone who want's to follow/join it: https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/...ncing_patches/

[vsb]

They'll most likely be forced to make some minor balance changes purely for gameplay reasons. In a static MMORPG, there's going to be a very, very strong bias to rolling the OP classes. I mean why play anything else when you know those other classes will always be subpar?

What classes are subpar? Every class has its place. Private servers have healthy population of every class.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

What classes are subpar? Every class has its place. Private servers have healthy population of every class.

Exactly. In Classic WoW you have to look at class and not spec. If you want to be a healer you have these options. If you want to be DPS you have these options. If you want to be tank.. you have.. that option. The spec below the class isn't really what you judge it by like you do in the the current game. A lot of people will struggle with this of course but that is just how it is.

[JRZoid]

A major Nerfism is not Balancing...bandaid to balancing....looks like just awful nerfism it is significant to stats...

The Rogue IMO has the advantage with their Build in the current situation...

[shoegazing]

No changes to class design.

If you refuse to play a spec because it isn't absolutely top tier, that's your problem.

If a group refuses to take specs that aren't absolutely top tier, in spite of the fact that the game will certainly be easier than it was the first time around (content gets cleared on private servers immediately after it's released for example) that's their problem.

[storluffarn]

So, here's the results from the Reddit post:

People on Reddit is mostly positive towards balancing patches in some form. Whereas people here seems mostly negative. An interesting discrepancy, I wonder why that is?

[czarek]

One of the back memories is that vanilla wasnt pretty much balanced. And it was good in some reason because players feels not to be limited by something. It makes gameplay much more enjoyable. Yes major builds were in game for pvp or pve but talent trees were more flexible (and spell ranks also). Balancing them is what we have now in retail version. Now you select spec and you are pretty binded to it. Talent tree isnt about to choose better spell its about to choose spell that you ejoy more. In vanilla you can make good/bad or ejoyable builds like hybrids that you cant make on retail. You know its hard to balance the game when you are able to make with ur talent what ever you want and this is one of the biggest "+" of vanilla feeling in class design. One thing i could bring to the classes in vanilla its dual spec nothin more. Cheers.

[storluffarn]

One of the back memories is that vanilla wasnt pretty much balanced.

Having had all those discussions I have realized one thing: While balance would be admirable, it's not really what I'm arguing for, it's change. I used to play warlock back in the days, and did so on a private server recently too. Back in vanilla all was new, and the game was continuously challenging me to adapt and device new strategies. The reason I quit the private server was because the game was static. I simply got tiered of the same shadow bolt spamming every day, all day long. Inbalance I can take, in fact, in balance is alright, so long as the inbalance changes. Okay so moonkins suck in 1.12, but make them stronger in the next patch then. That seems to be how every major online game works now ranging from MMOs to MOBAs. Everyone is striving for balance, but on the way there (if anyone will ever get there) there will be inbalance of some degree.

[czarek]

Having had all those discussions I have realized one thing: While balance would be admirable, it's not really what I'm arguing for, it's change. I used to play warlock back in the days, and did so on a private server recently too. Back in vanilla all was new, and the game was continuously challenging me to adapt and device new strategies. The reason I quit the private server was because the game was static. I simply got tiered of the same shadow bolt spamming every day, all day long. Inbalance I can take, in fact, in balance is alright, so long as the inbalance changes. Okay so moonkins suck in 1.12, but make them stronger in the next patch then. That seems to be how every major online game works now ranging from MMOs to MOBAs. Everyone is striving for balance, but on the way there (if anyone will ever get there) there will be inbalance of some degree.

Ok. I get it. Balancing patches made changes that influence in gamestyle build etc. They never balanced it well but game were just a little bit different. They should do this in classic? I think yes because of your reason. Makieng slight changes doesnt mean they will ruin the vanilla feeling. And tbh vanilla feeling will never back as we remember it. If i could select best WoW times i would take TBC not the vanilla.

[AceofH]

So, here's the results from the Reddit post:

People on Reddit is mostly positive towards balancing patches in some form. Whereas people here seems mostly negative. An interesting discrepancy, I wonder why that is?

what's your source on this?

EDIT - your source is a whole 35 replies long. hardly anything you can say is conclusive.
furthermore - most of the people who do post seem to be in favor of light buffs to classes to basically make them suck less.
to that i have to ask, what does making hybrids do 5-600 dps instead of 4-500 dps do except make them want to be buffed further because they still aren't viable? oh, and overtake hunter dps.

[storluffarn]

what's your source on this?

EDIT - your source is a whole 35 replies long. hardly anything you can say is conclusive.
furthermore - most of the people who do post seem to be in favor of light buffs to classes to basically make them suck less.
to that i have to ask, what does making hybrids do 5-600 dps instead of 4-500 dps do except make them want to be buffed further because they still aren't viable? oh, and overtake hunter dps.

Not the broad sample size I would have hoped for, no. Still, in terms of number of unique posters it's not very much lower than this thread I think, so at least the sample sizes should be comparable. As for drawing conclusions, the post was on the first page of /r/classicwow for about a day, so at least a lot of people would have seen it, and it seems safe to assume that anyone who felt strongly on the subject would be obliged to post a reply. Out of all the replies, there was not a single poster arguing for no changes. So I think at least it's safe to say that the Reddit community seems to be leaning towards some changes rather than no changes.

I think most people seems to be wanting some kind of changing meta, like most multiplayer online games have today. I tend to agree, I think a static wow classic simply doesn't appeal to as many people as a dynamic one. In fact, I would venture saying that most no changes followers would play wow classic regardless of whether blizzard keeps it static or releases minor balancing patches, whereas the contrary is probably not true, most people who want some changes will probably quit after some time if there are no changes. I base this statement on the assumption that no changes followers are probably the more hardcore fans, and while some might be annoyed by even minor changes, the commitment of these players will likely out weight the impact on their gaming experience from minor balancing patches. Meanwhile, not making any changes will inevitably lead to some changes followers becoming bored with the game being static, and then they will most likely leave after some time. Hence, in terms of keeping an active player base, I think some changes eclipses no changes. This is just me speculating though.

[anon5123]

One of the big things I love about 1.12 is that I don't have to worry about class balance changing. I don't have to worry about my class getting nerfed or other classes getting buffed. I don't have to worry about changes, everything is set in stone and I can plan around that.

In order for vanilla classes to truly be "balanced", you'd need to pretty much completely change everything, and oh look now it's just retail capped at level 60, which is not what people wanted when they asked for 1.12 servers.

[storluffarn]

<message>

I get what you're after here, I really do. But to me it doesn't make a ton of sense to have balancing without adding new content, or else you end up with "well we used to be able to kill this boss, but then rogues got nerfed so now we suck"

Would it though? I think it'd be kind of fun if, say, MC was challenging again? It having been farmed on private servers for the last five years has really taken the edge of it. Now everybody knows, or are at least one google search away from knowing, the optimal tactic for every encounter in vanilla. Shaking things up a little would make the game more interesting in my opinion, and more challenging, as it was when we cleared the dungeons the first time back in actual vanilla times.

It's not going to be very rewarding to clear the same content over and over with constant reshuffling of what you need. It's depressing to play a class that, say, had some special utility, but then lost it.

Hmm, about the first part, I don't know how the server progression will be, but I'm assuming they will release content according to some schedule, rather than just have everything available from the start. Then, the same part over and over again would correspond to farming dungeons you already cleared I guess. At that point I think class balance won't force you to reshuffle what you need a lot because you'll have gear enough to make it easy regardless. Keeping the game changing so that you need to come up with new strategies though, that's a good thing in my book, because it once again makes the more challenging. Also it captures the strategizing element of vanilla that's now basically gone.

About the second part, class balancing is not about nerfing any class to the degree that they suck. It's quite the contrary about making as many classes and specs as possible competitive on an equal footing. It's about keeping combat rogues good, while also making balance druids good. No class should lose their utility, just, more class specs should be able to utilize.

It sounds to me like you're asking them to add content to vanilla, not just balancing.

Then I have phrased myself poorly, for that is not my wish. How did you reach this conclusion?

One of the big things I love about 1.12 is that I don't have to worry about class balance changing. I don't have to worry about my class getting nerfed or other classes getting buffed. I don't have to worry about changes, everything is set in stone and I can plan around that.

In order for vanilla classes to truly be "balanced", you'd need to pretty much completely change everything, and oh look now it's just retail capped at level 60, which is not what people wanted when they asked for 1.12 servers.

I guess we simply have different attitudes to changes. Changes brings you worry, changes brings me challenge and keeps things interesting. No right or wrong to be found here I think, just different preferences.

The part about a balanced vanilla being retail capped at 60 simply isn't true though, for a multitude of quite obvious reasons, one among them being quoted in your forum signature: "LFR saved raiding". LFR isn't a balancing concept, it's a change of mechanics, and a bad one at that in my opinion. Another obvious difference is that talent trees aren't really talent trees anymore, etc. For the record I'm fine with vanilla never reaching a state where it is truly balanced, however, to me some change would keep things more interesting though, as I mentioned above.

[ablib]

#NoChanges

[AceofH]

So tell me. In your ideal world how much dps should a pure do and how much should a hybrid do?
Furthermore how do you balance them without breaking them elsewhere. For example balance does just fine in PvP and 5 mans, they just have issues in raids.

[anon5123]

The part about a balanced vanilla being retail capped at 60 simply isn't true though

I mean, yeah, no shit it's not going to be exactly the same thing, but it will be close enough. "hurdur but there's no LFR so it's not retail capped at 60!!" almost reads like willful ignorance.

When you "balance" the classes, you end up with what we have in retail: a bunch of bland and boring, flavorless classes that are all made equal, having the same tools, same abilities, same strengths and weaknesses, because everyone has to be equal and balanced, nobody is allowed to be special or unique.

The entire draw of 1.12's class balance is that it's NOT balanced. Classes have clear strengths and weaknesses, and are unique in ways that other classes can't replicate. Priest has a wide variety of heals. Rogue has a million stuns and cooldowns. Warrior is the best tank and melee DPS. Mage has superior AoE. etc. etc. these things don't exist in retail because everyone has to be equal and "balanced". All the healers have a bunch of different heals. All the DPS have lots of AoE. All the tanks have multiple cooldowns and AoE threat and such. The only difference is the names on the abilities, pretty much.

I don't want that shit. If I wanted balanced, homogenized classes, I'd go play World of Diablocraft. If you balanced classes in 1.12, it'd be not much different from just playing retail capped at level 60.

[Battlebeard]

Balancing could certainly make the game better and more enjoyable.

BUT

It's more important we have the original game, even if it's worse or broken. We play this for the experience, not for an awesome mmorpg. These servers serve as a time machine back to 2004 more than anything else.

I want the original game with the bad stuff too!