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  1. #61
    Why is holy priest in there but disc is not lol?
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  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    Just because something is high on sims, does not mean it is a good/fun spec. Call the storm have helped alot, but it is still a spec with its flaws.

    Also, we are still one the least mobile specs in the game, so i bet we will still us lose heavily on many fights when it comes to dps.
    Yep, strong spec. But gotta try and pair your movement with Lava Surge procs, Available earth shocks, or stormkeeper charges or your damage suffers greatly. You can get caught with your pants down getting a mechanic and just tank your damage.

  3. #63
    I remember in 7.2 and 7.3 demo warlocks simmed way higher than any other spec. In real situations demonology was a joke a complete laughing stock if you played one you were an idiot they were the worst spec in the game....

  4. #64
    Scarab Lord Triggered Fridgekin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BradTheBard87 View Post
    You can get caught with your pants down getting a mechanic and just tank your damage.
    I hear this a lot but is it really the case? I can understand on fights where you constantly have to readjust and you're barely able to land hard casts but if we're talking dodging aoe to go back in to turret it's not like Ele is a demanding spec with a complex rotation in the event that you miss a cast or two depending on your MS and procs.

    I could very well be wrong though.
    A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Triggered Fridgekin View Post
    I hear this a lot but is it really the case? I can understand on fights where you constantly have to readjust and you're barely able to land hard casts but if we're talking dodging aoe to go back in to turret it's not like Ele is a demanding spec with a complex rotation in the event that you miss a cast or two depending on your MS and procs.

    I could very well be wrong though.
    It's honestly the same as any other caster, maybe even favors ele a bit because lava surge and frost shock, but it can be crippling as all hell if it's during elemental, although that's also just as bad for anyone else.

    Ele doesn't lose any more than other casters having to move. All casters suck ass when they have to move.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltas View Post
    It's honestly the same as any other caster, maybe even favors ele a bit because lava surge and frost shock, but it can be crippling as all hell if it's during elemental, although that's also just as bad for anyone else.

    Ele doesn't lose any more than other casters having to move. All casters suck ass when they have to move.
    Not really. Ele suffers more, as each missed cast due to movement not only takes the damage from the spell, but also reduces the amount of generated MS throughout the fight. Also our filler hits harder than fillers of other casters, so we lose much more dmg if we can't keep casting it.

  7. #67
    People are never happy

  8. #68
    number wise ? yes.
    non boring game play wise ? no.
    mobility wise ? no.
    talent wise ? no.
    fun wise ? no.
    def cd wise ? no.

    but blizz will not care anyway. so what.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltas View Post
    It's honestly the same as any other caster, maybe even favors ele a bit because lava surge and frost shock, but it can be crippling as all hell if it's during elemental, although that's also just as bad for anyone else.

    Ele doesn't lose any more than other casters having to move. All casters suck ass when they have to move.
    i play mage and shaman. i can assure you, you have no glue what you are talking about.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    number wise ? yes.
    non boring game play wise ? no.
    mobility wise ? no.
    talent wise ? no.
    fun wise ? no.
    def cd wise ? no.

    but blizz will not care anyway. so what.

    - - - Updated - - -



    i play mage and shaman. i can assure you, you have no glue what you are talking about.
    It is your personal opinion though.

    Personally, I like every aspect of Ele as it is right now, and IMO blizzard is doing a great job bringing the spec back. Ele has clear weak and strong sides.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by HCLM View Post
    Not really. Ele suffers more, as each missed cast due to movement not only takes the damage from the spell, but also reduces the amount of generated MS throughout the fight. Also our filler hits harder than fillers of other casters, so we lose much more dmg if we can't keep casting it.
    You realize every caster has a resource, and every caster loses said resource when they aren't casting, right? It's the exact same for every caster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post


    i play mage and shaman. i can assure you, you have no glue what you are talking about.
    Mages have off-gcd blink if they talent it, which I heavily considered throwing in there as a caveat, but that's the only real thing any other caster has over us. Some people can spam dots but they don't really do more than frost shock when spammed. I've played mage plenty, and yeah I'd agree they are better at movement, but it's not nearly as bad as all of you try to make it.
    Last edited by Keltas; 2019-01-17 at 06:42 PM.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltas View Post
    Mages have off-gcd blink if they talent it, which I heavily considered throwing in there as a caveat, but that's the only real thing any other caster has over us.
    Off-gcd? If only that, thanks to Shimmer (which most people take for PvE) you can blink midcast, with two charges to boot.

    You seem to confuse being able to do something while moving with mobility / gap closer, a caster might as well have no (spamable) instant cast at all, as long as they have powerful short CD gap closer, their mobility issues are solved in PvE for most situations.

    Simply doing:
    Hardcast => Gap closer => Hardcast
    is superior to
    Hardcast => spam inferior Instant ability while moving => repeat until you've reached your destination => go back to hardcast.


    The only time where spamable abilities gain an advantage over gap closer are if you are forced to move (like someone else keeps pressing forward on your keyboard) or if the movement situation lasts that long that gap closers aren't cutting it anymore.

    Thing is, most of time in PvE, you need to get quickly from Point A to Point B, where anything like Blink / Wild Charge / Demonic Circle is vastly superior to spamming an Instant ability.
    Unless said instant ability is close to dps neutral, which Frost shock isn't.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-01-17 at 06:48 PM.

  12. #72
    It may do more DPS but it plays a lot worse. Spending two-thirds of the fight spamming lightning bolt isn't fun.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    snip.
    Except you rarely move for more than that gap closers GCD, the GW gcd, or the single frost/flame shock gcd.
    Ghuun is the only fight this tier I can say you move enough, and consistently to the same locations, that those gap closers made a real difference. Also largely because you can jump the ledge with them (which was absolutely way better than what we have).

    The biggest movement patterns in raids nowadays are -

    Running something out - which often puts you out of range, or you weren't going more than a gcd worth of distance in the first place. If you have a consistent point you go to then circle can be strong for getting there but not back. Boomkins can run out with travel form and back with wild charge, but that's maybe half a gcd more than ghost wolfing out then back. Shadow is fucked. Mages can do this better but won't get more than a gcd or so on everyone else.
    We are in the bad group here but we can still do it quickly, we just lose more than most.

    sidestepping/grouping up spreading out - which does the same damage to everyone since it's usually only 1-2 gcds. If you have a lava surge or earth shock we do this better than spriests, arcane, demo, and aff (refreshing dots does no damage and with the new traits, is a bad thing), about equal to a boomkin with SS, a warlock with conflag, and frost/fire mages. As long as you have an instant and plan ahead you do this the same.
    We're in the better half here.

    soaking something nearby - Mages will win this every time obviously, since they can blink directly to any point and cross most rooms randomly quickly. But circle and wild charge don't help here, and shadow priests might as well not bother. This is the the one most likely to have consistent movement with filler gcds needed.
    We can get to soaks faster than most and get back to dpsing, unless they are consistently in the same spots.

    everyone going to X location - I'd say we're the best at this unless the location is very consistent, at which point warlocks are better because circle. Something like imonar bridge we can cross way faster than everyone else and I was constantly on the far side dpsing way before any other ranged.


    You can see where each ranged (barring hunters obviously, but even they could be put in here) have a type of raid movement they do well in, and a type they suck at. Except shadow priests who suck at every type of movement, and suffer even more than us when they have to move.
    Last edited by Keltas; 2019-01-17 at 07:29 PM.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltas View Post
    You realize every caster has a resource, and every caster loses said resource when they aren't casting, right? It's the exact same for every caster.



    Mages have off-gcd blink if they talent it, which I heavily considered throwing in there as a caveat, but that's the only real thing any other caster has over us. Some people can spam dots but they don't really do more than frost shock when spammed. I've played mage plenty, and yeah I'd agree they are better at movement, but it's not nearly as bad as all of you try to make it.
    You're playing only HC farms or never saw a heavy movement fight that had impact on your dps. During SE you need 30seconds of no moving to make full use of it. After SE ends you have to stand still and cast LB which is now the hardest hitting spell outside of ES. And we don't have ANY spell that can help us move from point A to B in an instant.

    Compared to that you have:
    - BM hunters who dps in run
    - Mages who have 2 (3 as arcane) shimmers, tons of instants, and don't have builders at all. Frost have some kind of Combo Points, but he has so many instants he is hardly hindered by movement
    - Warlocks kings of high movement fights
    - Shadow priests same as Warlock
    - Boomking are kind of meh on movement fights too now

    Ele is a turret. Topping dps when there is no much movement, and falling behind if they have to move a lot.

  15. #75
    Class still plays and feels like sh*t.
    Rotations are awful and talents dont help enough to make the spec more enjoyable.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltas View Post
    Except you rarely move for more than that gap closers GCD, the GW gcd, or the single frost/flame shock gcd.
    I'd love to see you move ~15-20yards within a single GCD.
    Just to give an idea, that counter is already over by the time abilities went off GCD after shifting into GW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltas View Post
    Ghuun is the only fight this tier I can say you move enough, and consistently to the same locations, that those gap closers made a real difference. Also largely because you can jump the ledge with them (which was absolutely way better than what we have).
    Yeah because on G'huun P3 i never wanted to have something like Wild Charge to dodge the growth easily, or to reach the pustules for soaking.

    Also, what about Fetid?
    Never had any issues regarding positioning / movement there? Mythic obviously.


    Sorry but you seem to lack knowledge and understanding on this matter, i second the suggestion from above and recommend you to play another class to actually realize what you're missing.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by HCLM View Post
    You're playing only HC farms or never saw a heavy movement fight that had impact on your dps. During SE you need 30seconds of no moving to make full use of it. After SE ends you have to stand still and cast LB which is now the hardest hitting spell outside of ES. And we don't have ANY spell that can help us move from point A to B in an instant.

    Compared to that you have:
    - BM hunters who dps in run
    - Mages who have 2 (3 as arcane) shimmers, tons of instants, and don't have builders at all. Frost have some kind of Combo Points, but he has so many instants he is hardly hindered by movement
    - Warlocks kings of high movement fights
    - Shadow priests same as Warlock
    So you've never played spriest or warlock obviously. Infernal acts the exact same as SE does, and punishes you just as much for moving at all during it. Void form is the same way. Demo cooldowns (and general movement) get fucked by anything, and affliction if they move in the opening 10~ seconds is fucked.

    Mages have to hardcast too, most of their instants are procs. Shimmer is fucking OP but that's what they have on us.

    BM hunters I didn't list because, according to blizzard, they are supposed to be "suffering" a dps loss in exchange for that mobility. Which evens out in logs and sims show they are a lot lower, so they probably do have that penalty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I'd love to see you move ~15-20yards within a single GCD.
    Just to give an idea, that counter is already over by the time abilities went off GCD after shifting into GW.
    Yeah because on G'huun P3 i never wanted to have something like Wild Charge to dodge the growth easily, or to reach the pustules for soaking.

    Also, what about Fetid?
    Never had any issues regarding positioning / movement there? Mythic obviously.


    Sorry but you seem to lack knowledge and understanding on this matter, i second the suggestion from above and recommend you to play another class to actually realize what you're missing.
    I did play this tier as another class as my main, so yeah I do know what it's like on them. I was a warlock before you ask.

    On ghuun p3, warlock feels the same way, you have to constantly move around wishing you had a better way to get there like wild charge. It's one of our worst situations. You can work around it a bit by planning ahead and not moving too far (which is entirely possible as long as you are closest).

    You can move ~8 yards a second, and with GW you can cover 15 in a single GCD assuming it's like 1.3~ seconds. (unless it's during hero or a ton of haste).

    Fetid you sit on a mushroom cluster and you shouldn't have any problems. The only major problems would be getting to pustules if you get a really really bad spawn, which sucks for other classes too (besides mages) because it's random and you can't have a circle down everywhere. I've done mythic on warlock and shaman and I felt like I could get to pustules a lot faster (or safer) on shaman. Of course damage on them is shit but that's a different problem.

    Edit: I'm not saying ele is amazing at movement, I'm not even saying it's good at it.
    I'm saying that I keep seeing people arguing (here, official forums, discord, and in game) and ele is somehow the absolute worst that suffers "so much more" than other casters when it really doesn't.
    Every caster sucks ass when you have to move right now. They all have 1-2 types of movement that don't feel terrible, and Shimmer is a broken outlier.
    Last edited by Keltas; 2019-01-17 at 08:19 PM.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltas View Post
    You can move ~8 yards a second, and with GW you can cover 15 in a single GCD assuming it's like 1.3~ seconds. (unless it's during hero or a ton of haste).
    So by that logic, Shaman didn't lose much due the removal of Gust of wind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltas View Post
    Fetid you sit on a mushroom cluster and you shouldn't have any problems. The only major problems would be getting to pustules if you get a really really bad spawn, which sucks for other classes too (besides mages) because it's random and you can't have a circle down everywhere. I've done mythic on warlock and shaman and I felt like I could get to pustules a lot faster (or safer) on shaman.
    I have no idea how you can come to the conclusion that it is easier on Shaman.

    First off, you don't need to bang around with any walls / stopper on the ground, you have circle.
    Then you can also place your circle to a new location if you had to move out of range in case of a knockback.
    Also you can place Gateway to a close position without issue and use it to get around.
    On top of that, you can go for Burning Rush and have literally the same mobility as a Shaman in Ghostwolf.

    Also, i have no issues with a bad spawn on my Balance druid, because i literally don't give a shit about the knockback due Wild Charge.
    Whereas on my Shaman, i have reposition myself to counter the knockback, which is far more difficult on a bad spawn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltas View Post
    Of course damage on them is shit but that's a different problem.
    You are literally saying that the one relevant thing on the entire fight is "shit".

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    You are literally saying that the one relevant thing on the entire fight is "shit".
    I was arguing movement, that's why saying damage on them is shit isn't important to the argument at hand.

    Not having to hug a wall is nice, but teleport isn't up for every knockback (it's cooldown is slightly longer) and moving it is a gcd. It's a nice ability but it really isn't as useful on this fight as you'd think. It's helpful for not having to wall hug but it doesn't make the fight better for movement.

    Wild charge is definitely better than what we have for knockbacks, which is where they get a movement advantage over us. This is one of the situations where gust of wind is actually missed.

    Gateway takes a full gcd to place, and while you can throw it down and it gets you there faster, in the end it's not more than just ghost wolfing over. Plus 2 minute cooldown means you can use it for 1 pustule, not all 3 (or 2 if you burned it later on).

    I said safer because burning rush makes you as fast as ghost wolf, but it does 4% a second in return (and takes a gcd to turn on). The damage might mean less in a not-shit guild, but for me it's rough because our healers are by far our weakest link.

    I also didn't say fetid was easier for shaman than druid. It's a bit better than/equal to warlock, and druid has the fight a bit easier. Again, my original post (and what I am/was arguing) is that shaman isn't some gimped slowpoke that has to go uphill both ways while every other ranged just glides on down. All the ranged have pretty similar movement problems with each one having a type of situation they do a bit better in.


    And I absolutely miss gust of wind too. It would make us way better if we got it back, but they won't. GW can travel a similar distance, it just doesn't give us a direction modifier, which was what was so strong about it.
    Last edited by Keltas; 2019-01-17 at 08:50 PM.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltas View Post
    I was arguing movement, that's why saying damage on them is shit isn't important to the argument at hand.
    Last reply because after such a statement, i don't want to drag this discussion any further.
    If your damage on them is shit, you fail, that is the sole challenge of the entire encounter, if you do not kill those in time (or struggle to kill them) you are not going to kill Fetid or will always have trouble killing him.

    Nobody cares how "safely" you get to them, if you cannot deliver a modicum of damage on those pustules, you rely on others to pick up the slack on the most difficult part of the encounter.

    Movement at the end of day is just means to an end - the end being dps on priority targets.

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