Works great in GW2
will never happen in wow.
old people design this game and they dont like change.
would love to see content that doesnt require healer and tank...like Islands...but better
Works great in GW2
will never happen in wow.
old people design this game and they dont like change.
would love to see content that doesnt require healer and tank...like Islands...but better
The only reason tanks and healers exist in the first place was gameplay limitations in vanilla. They couldn't make the boss deal avoidable damage only, and thus had to add healers to heal the random targeted damage and tanks to tank hits.
I mean, it couldn't be worse than what we have now.
That said, basically all of the pve content we've had that didn't require the trinity setup has been pretty bland so it would need to be more than just making most damage avoidable and turning every spec into a dps one with some sustain.
Last edited by Freaking Frumpy Frak; 2018-12-18 at 05:15 PM.
I'm a big fan of the holy trinity, but would also be ok with adding a 4th role as purely support. Buffing, debuffing, etc.
AMD Ryzen 7 5800X3D | Gigabyte Aorus X570S Elite AX | Teamgroup DDR4 4000mhz 32GB RAM | Zotac RTX 4070 | Samsung 990 Pro 1TB + SK Hynix P41 Platinum 1TB | Windows 11 Pro
“When you've burned the bridges behind you, don't go starting a fire on the one in front of you.” ― Steven Erikson, The Bonehunters
Yeah, it just didn't give a shit about any sort of balance.
You are either a <spec> <profession> or you can GTFO.
Healing is minimal.
Damage mitigation is mostly dodging with some clutch abilities.
The most important thing is damage in that game and its boring as fuck.
The stat system may as well not exist and it should just toggle between "crits" and "dots."
And anyone decrying the "old people" way of doing things don't understand where the concepts came from.
D&D, where there were severe weaknesses built into each class such that they had to rely on other characters to accomplish things as a group. God forbid.
The concept put forth just reminds me of all the twinks who would show up with a class made from OGL (thanks Wizards) during the days of 3.0 & 3.5 and try to make the most OP character on the planet as some form of overcompensation.
Last edited by Mazinger-Z; 2018-12-18 at 05:19 PM.
On the one hand, it would get rid of issues like tank shortages etc. Any five people could go run a a dungeon.
The problem is that they'd have to utterly change PVE encounters. Right now the in game logic is that a tank is a person who has trained and geared themselves to be able to take damage and, with the help of a healer, can survive encounters that will kill others. If it's just 5 random people, what's the logic for the group surviving truly powerful foes? IF the mechanic is just "you die over and over, run back and eventually win" that's... unsatisfying. Deaths mean nothing at that point as long as you can keep the mob in combat.
This isn't going to happen in WoW - it's far far too late for such a fundamental change. But even if they were revamping it to this degree I think there are basic issues with the model.
- - - Updated - - -
The challenge for that kind of spec is that it wouldn't be good at open world content unless it had some credible damage abilities and then you get into balance issues... if a Bard (say) can do damage that's viable by itself AND buff the group so much that you want one for the buffs, why bring a non-buff class? And do buffs stack? If not, you'd only ever bring one of the buff class to the raid. Thats where Spriests were in TBC - you loved one for the mana battery effect but it didn't stack and they did about 30% less damage than other casters so you only ever brought one shadow priest to a raid.
You could just say "the 4th role is only useful in group content and in open world stuff you use another spec" like you do healers. Requires that player to have two specs, but... eh.
ESO most definitely uses the trinity system... You need a tank and you need a healer for endgame content, the only difference is that anyone can spec to be a healer or a tank regardless of their class, but they still need to fill that role.
- - - Updated - - -
No reason they can't do damage like healers do, not a lot, but enough to get by.
The way to get people to bring more than 1 to a raid is by making it so 1 of that class can't possibly maintain all their available buffs by themselves, so multiple are needed if you want all the buffs, or make the buffs only cover their group in the raid, so you need 1 for each group you want the buffs in (like how shaman totems worked in vanilla, and I think TBC)
Last edited by Schattenlied; 2018-12-18 at 05:29 PM.
A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.
Yeah, that works.
The way to get people to bring more than 1 to a raid is by making it so 1 of that class can't possibly maintain all their available buffs by themselves, so multiple are needed if you want all the buffs, or make the buffs only cover their group in the raid, so you need 1 for each group you want the buffs in (like how shaman totems worked in vanilla, and I think TBC)
The challenge there is that if the buffs are powerful enough for a raid to want a buff spec and each buff spec buffed different things then you want one of each which means you now have dedicated slots for each buff class. IF they're not all that powerful, then they're just another DPS class with some nice utility.
For example, say a Bard buffed Haste 5%. You want that. Duh. So now the raid has a slot dedicated a Bard. But does Blizzard balance the encounter assuming that the raid will have that buff? What if they don't? Is the stuff still killable and if it is, does it become trivial with a Bard's buff? Rinse and repeat for each buff type. If you had, say, 3 buff types, does the encounter assume all 3 are present? If not... see above. This might be less of an issue in Mythic where you have 20 slots that need filling but... it's a constraint that mostly doesn't exist now.
Note that the above issue is magnified if a buff class can only buff their 5 person group... now you need, say, 3 Bards. Then you circle back to the raid balancing issue of what Blizzard needs to assume is present and making it killable if the raid doesn't have a buff of a certain type... but not trivial if you do... and... and...
Could this all be solved? Maybe. But it's a headache and not something they'll do 14 years in.
Last edited by clevin; 2018-12-18 at 05:42 PM.
Games where any class can fill any role and share the healing, tanking and dps are silly. They are often easier than traditional rolebased games. I would even argue you don't need that much skill since everyone can just spam their abilities and people are healed, enemies are tanked and dpsed. Specializing in one area promotes harder mechanics for that role and higher expertise from the player.
ABSOLUTELY NOT. That was already tried in diablo 2 with the necro. For years it was a support character designed to buff and debuff. Players LOATHED it to the point where the necro earned the name of “curse bitch”.
people never liked playing the curse bitch necro because its too passive and boring. Its fun to dps. It can be fun to tank. Even healing feels more interactive. Pure buff debuff is just bad. No one will play it.
Last edited by Kokolums; 2018-12-18 at 06:09 PM.
TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.
Agree. It's too late to make a fundamental change like this for WOW.
In general? I still prefer the trinity for my MMOs. That said, some MMOs have experimented with systems where anybody can be any part of the trinity. Elder Scrolls Online, for example, you can kit out all sorts of different classes into healers or tanks and the armor you wear is a choice and a function of that role rather than a locked-in thing. It also felt like (as of release, I haven't played since about a month after) the tanks couldn't tank everything and so everybody had to be a little bit of a tank and have a little bit of survivability while the tank focused on the most dangerous two or three mobs. I do think that's a neat concept, though, as expected, there are always better and worse versions of each role between classes so I don't know how effective it really is.
If you want to try that kind of thing, I recommend giving ESO a shot. It's too late for WOW to try it and I don't know how much longer the MMO genre is really going to last so I wouldn't expect a lot of newcomers mixing things up. That's your best bet to try to escape the trinity.
“Nostalgia was like a disease, one that crept in and stole the colour from the world and the time you lived in. Made for bitter people. Dangerous people, when they wanted back what never was.” -- Steven Erikson, The Crippled God
I could do without the current tank role but healers are pretty nifty to have around.
Subarashii chin chin mono
Kintama no kami aru
The problem I see here (aside from WoW's age and how attuned WoW players are to the trinity) is that doing so would likely increase class/spec homogenization, something that people are still worried about even after all of the pruning we've seen lately.
Considering that most games who started without had to patch in some sort of Trinity system, I would rather not.
Even more so, I would love a 4th role in place for support.
FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..
I actually liked the idea in theory, until I played GW2. The trinity works really well in WoW, the only change I would actually like to see is an addition of a Support role. It doesn't need to be officially sanctioned with a 4th spearate role, but maybe just be a DPS that sacrifices it's own personal damage, either through talent selection or another spec, to buff the group. Playing shaman back in the day was by far my favorite experience in all of WoW. Providing totems to buff, heal, anti-CC, resist, etc. To me it's the only thing really lacking in WoW in terms of RPG mechanics.
The trinity system, and the whole "organization" and these rules and systems that require your group functioning as a unit with specific roles is part of what makes WoW raiding so good in the first place, imho.
I think regardless of any benefits it might possibly bring, it would be too big of a change to do in an on-going game. A new Blizzard MMORPG could definitely be designed without it, but I don't see WoW working without, it would become a very different thing.