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  1. #81
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Soon-TM
    It's a neat idea. But it would require an entirely different approach to PvE (and also PvP, to an extent) from Blizzard. I don't think that the current crop of devs is particularly interested in such a fundamental revamp, or that they're even able to pull it off. After all, they are only good at pruning and trinity-based raids.
    Well, it wasn't already so impossible taking based on game original design. I mean possibilities for individual characters RPG customization (classes+talents, characteristics). I don't agree that WoW didn’t have anything to do with D&D system back then. Exactly then it was possible since such system let hybrid classes exist, and what became of them now? What become with all various characteristics that not so much reinforced "absolute" indicators of characters strength, but more players' "role" choice, even if taking into account "holy trinity" (also, this isn't ultimate truth because I repeat - don't forget support, which is 4th)? That is, any class was able to at least partially fulfill not only role assigned to it by devs, and therefore even "holy trinity" based encounters design didn't severely limit group as a whole (unbalanced from current point of view) abilities.

    Even DK, which appeared in WotLK (MoP monks weren't already), still confessed this "religion", because tanking/dd role completely depended on character RPG customization... but now... everything depends on chosen "spec" and no one care what player thinks about it (the whole "role" RPG part is integrated inside it and you can't change anything), we have only one opportunity to play - the way it was decided by Blizzard and nothing else (by the way, "gladiators" part was the only bright ray in dark realm of specs after "design cataclysm" that destroyed everything, but it was just an exception, and what became of them only proves my point). I'd call this: "MOBA mentality", but it won't be fair to game genre mentioned; in any case, this wasn't fully true for “first” DotA (much more depended on only possible customization there - collected items and their characteristics), but as for current - sorry, I'm not following latest trends in this direction, not a fan.

    Moreover, each next tricky "direction" found by players, even within limits of this dictatorial system, continues to be actively cut off by devs. Don't you notice it? Even action and slasher games rarely, but sometimes have more flexible and very often much more thoughtful (ideologically/fantasy) system.

    It came to the point that such behavior became a kind of meme for this game:
    - "Fun detected, fun nerfed/removed!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    their current slogan could sound something like this: "Player's choice freedom isn't game's advantage, but developer’s disadvantage".
    Conclusion: not "holy trinity" based design oppress current system, but poor and incoherent RPG customization one.

    ps. I'm not directly answered to quoted person, but more expressed my general thoughts on affected issue, sorry
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-07-18 at 06:58 AM.
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  2. #82
    Pissed off, because every other MMO game without a trinity system is a clusterfuck.

  3. #83
    Field Marshal zharkos's Avatar
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    I really do enjoy the idea of hybrid classes, the issue comes up when balancing gets involved and the fact that blizzard right now is more or less incapable of doing anything right. I wouldn't hold your breath over them essentially redesigning the core of every class at once

  4. #84
    Deleted
    F that.

    Even games originally banking on the "no trinity"-system have returned to the concept in 1 way or another (see GW2s endgame for refference)... so the trend is currently rather into the opposing direction.

  5. #85
    Scarab Lord Asmodias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    Right now, the game consists of three roles, and only three:

    Tank, Healer, and DPS.

    They come in different flavors, but it is universally accepted that if you choose a role, you will (or should) be able to fill said role in any level of content.

    However, when you look back at some of the old Talent-trees -- PARTICULARLY the Death Knight talent-trees when Wrath first launched, before dual-spec was added -- you can see a lot of instances where it was possible to become a "hybrid". Death Knights were seemingly designed to be hybrids from the get go, and it was almost impossible *not* to at least be a competent off-tank.

    Now, hybrids generally fell into one of two camps; either they were mediocre at everything, or they were considered stupidly overpowered (again, look no further than the DK during Wrath).

    But...

    What if the game were designed differently?

    Instead of the "Trinity" of Tank, Healer, and DPS, every character was instead designed to be totally self-sufficient? Where "aggro" was thrown by the wayside, and every players was expected to kill their own mobs and take care of themselves?

    Now, I'm not suggested "Blizzard should totally do that!". I'm simply saying, maybe it warrants some consideration, even as a simple "what if" conversation. How differently might the game play? What might raids or "boss encounters" look like? I'm not even asking "do you think it would be better or worse" -- just, how do you think such a system would feel?

    Personally... I'm not confident it would appeal to the remaining player-base, but I do kind of dig the idea. As a Death Knight, there's something inherently kind of frustrating about the idea that in PvE, I have no more survivability or healing than a Rogue. If I pull aggro (or *pulled* aggro; I just let my sub lapse), a boss is going to one- or two-shot me, regardless of class.

    But if the game were designed maybe a bit more like Diablo 3, where you aren't facing "bosses" so much as "hordes of enemies"... that's something I think is really cool to think about. Instead of choosing "Tank, Healer, or DPS", you might be choosing between things like "Single-target, AoE, or Survivability", giving players their own unique little niches. Maybe I could choose between something like the classic Blood DK, where I'm cleaving and siphoning blood from enemies to regain health, versus being more of a pure Necromancer, where every enemy's corpse could be resurrected as a temporary skeletal minion, giving me a small army in the heat of battle.

    Or my Warrior, instead of being "Prot-spec", maybe it would return to the more Greco-Roman/Spartan themed "Gladiator" character, in which your shield is used as a weapon, allowing you to physically push enemies around into positions or set them up to take increased damage from other players. Or just get a big two-hander and Cleave like your name is Saurfang (extra points if there were a physics engine to send enemies' bodies flying). Or as a Mage, finally unleashing a full spectacle of magic, where Blizzard unleashes an actual *BLIZZARD* around you, or Flamestrike would darken the immediate enemy right before striking.

    I dunno. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I've found I just don't really enjoy "raiding" anymore, and frankly, I really haven't since... probably Mists of Pandaria. I prefer just jumping in to queue up for short, quick content, and honestly, Diablo 3 is one of my favorite games for just that reason. Admittedly, I can see where it might be difficult to transition certain Classes or talent-trees to being more self-sufficient (that, or make them more supportive roles, buffing allies or debuffing enemies instead of just "healing"), but the more I think about it, the more I like the idea.

    As I said, I just allowed my sub to lapse, so I may have a skewed perception of the game now. It really just *feels* like the game and the community is dying, though. And changing things up so dramatically, where each player is a force unto themselves, just seems like it would reinvigorate the game, at least for me.

    Just my two cents, though.
    I think I would rather take my chances with a game that traditionally didn't rely on the Trinity system (Guild Wars 2).


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  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by spalernTJ View Post
    Also, what the fuck is going on with the notion "The trinity is an old concept"? You want Blizzard to completely turn WoW into a singleplayer game? This is beyond measure of stupid.
    It is an old concept. You think you can't have a multiplayer game without the trinity? Wrong... look at Destiny.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads View Post
    It is an old concept. You think you can't have a multiplayer game without the trinity? Wrong... look at Destiny.
    I know you can have a multiplayer game without the trinity. Don't know why you wanna use a horrible game as your main example, but sure. I've played plenty of Multiplayer games where the trinity didn't need to exist. There's Diablo, PoE, Warframe, GuildWars2 etcetera. You know what all those game have in common, except for Guildwars 2? They're fast paced action games, so is Destiny 2. If you're gonna throw away the Trinity in an RPG, let alone an MMORPG, then you're fucked. Guiildwars had to implement it for high level PvE content, why? Cause without it, PvE in a non-action RPG environment becomes really boring.

    What about players who enjoy playing Healers? Who enjoy playing tanks? Who enjoy playing together as group and doing teamwork? Because the notion "Remove the Trinity" Is basically saying, fuck you healers, fuck you tanks, everyone's a DPS now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Btw, the "holy Trinity" IS an old concept. That doesn't make it necessarily bad, though. The problem is that in its current iteration kills any sort of actual class diversity, which is in turn is made worse by the three prunes in a row that we've had to go through. And what do we have to show for it?
    That's Blizzard's fault for basically having given up on pushing the boundaries. Final Fantasy XIV has no problem making diverse classes using the Trinity system. It is purely because Blizzard doesn't give a fuck anymore. Everything Blizzard does and says points to this. Mobile gaming, lootboxes, abandoning games and franchises left right and center.

    WoW is never going to get better, everyone knows this, I thought it was, but after telling myself for the 50'th time "Next time it'll be better." I gave up, and I'm having lots more fun in other games, its great.

  8. #88
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads View Post
    It is an old concept. You think you can't have a multiplayer game without the trinity? Wrong... look at Destiny.
    If I correctly understood everything that my friends explained to me when I asked about BDO, then this game almost doesn't reflect “holy trinity” based design and shield in character’s hands doesn't mean anything. The only bad thing is too poor set of awalaible items (=range between characteristics), and therefore “width” of RPG customization scatter is very narrow there (not for some particular class, but for everyone in general, because only weapons have class restrictions there). If we take into account that there're very small number of classes and half them are (pairwise) specializations, so even less, and then they don't need to balance “36 classes”, which means everything is somewhat simpler.

    Although, I was told that it's more likely a sandbox-slasher and that if I like RPGs, then I shouldn’t look much in this direction. I think this is subjective, given even WoW's vicious trends, but... doesn't matter, just personal thoughts
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-01-12 at 11:17 AM.
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  9. #89
    The trinity system fucking sucks and visually looks really fucking stupid in every MMORPG that has it, but I don't think WoW needs to have it removed. Make a new game and do that or something.

    The better, more user friendly option that's workable within WoW's framework would be to just have more 5 player and 3 player content. Maybe scale raids down to 5 players, somehow. (I don't see how that'd work in modern WoW without vastly changing their encounter design, though)
    Last edited by Otimus; 2018-12-19 at 07:24 AM.

  10. #90
    They should either abandon the system or give a healer/tank tree to every class. I absolutely hate how the grouping in WoW is always held to ransom by tanks, it makes it much harder to do anything and it tends to attract a certain type of toxic personality to that role a bit like how moderator positions on forums attract losers seeking internet power.

  11. #91
    not having a trinity is the reason guildwars never made it for me. You remove trinity from the game, its dead to me

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  12. #92
    I'd just go find another MMO. At that point it's no longer WoW so no reason to stick around.

  13. #93
    I've played games like this, it doesn't work unless the entire game is designed that way - basically you'd be asking to reinvent the entire game of WoW.

    Also the people who play trinity MMOs are completely different from those who play those without, personally without the trinity PVE just feels hollow, boring, borderline pointless. Everyone just runs around staying alive and doing some deeps.

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