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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kul Tiras View Post
    Worked great in GW1, works great in GW2.
    HAHAHA.

    No.

    'Tanking' in either of those involves gimmick builds or exploiting chokepoints.

    It would be a terrible idea.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Kul Tiras View Post
    Worked great in GW1, works great in GW2, works great in Destiny 2, works great in ESO, works great in TOR, worked great in Firefall, the list goes on.

    Trinity system is for lazy tunnel vision players who can only perform one type of task, except maybe tanks before threat was dumbed down to the power infinity. PVEers usually love trinity, because it requires low personal skill.

    When you don't have a dedicated role, and everyone has personal responsibility for multiple roles, you feel much more engaged in every fight, you have to be much more skilled personally which makes fighting more rewarding and the game feels much more rewarding overall.

    No matter how many epics they shove in your face and how high your DPS scores on recount, it will never be as rewarding as feeling you're a skilled player who can deal with any situation, be it threat, self-preservation and damage dealing.

    Only insects specialize, men should be able to do any task.
    Eh? ESO and TOR both have trinity systems. Destiny 2 is a shooter so that's hardly a fair comparison (plus, if you want to get nitpicky, Titans have a tank ability, Hunters a cloak/DPS ability, and Warlocks a heal ability). Only Guild Wars is an MMO that actually works to remove the trinity and the feedback I got from it is mixed at the very best of times as they then require band-aids to get around the lack of tanks and healers and they basically soft implemented it in higher tier content.

    WoW revolves around the trinity, in PvE at least. It allows players to specialize and do something they like. It's been 14 years, it works, and it ain't going nowhere.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanya View Post
    HAHAHA.

    No.

    'Tanking' in either of those involves gimmick builds or exploiting chokepoints.

    It would be a terrible idea.
    Exploiting chokepoints was the primary strat in diablo 1, which is something blizzard focused on 22 years ago. It was fun, you ran to a door and forced 20 mobs to come thru single file to die but got repetitive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    I want the ruins of K'aresh for 9.0 as I envision it as Netherstorm on steroids. A broken, shattered world. Eco-domes are stuck on various chunks to protect flora & fauna. I imagine a K'aresh ocean & maybe some islands contained in an eco dome or a snow-capped peak with some jungle valleys in another. Flesh version of Ethereals that never got altered. Space platforms as in Starcraft. Just a totally fantastic tileset & theme that I'd be very keen to explore. They could do some wild things.

  4. #64
    I would HATE it.

    IMO, you need all 3
    I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazinger-Z View Post
    GW2 solves this problem by just making sure every hit kills you, so dodge you monkeys, dodge.
    Yeah! SUPER skillfull with a jack of all trades-system

  6. #66
    yep thats how they do it

  7. #67
    The Lightbringer Lazuli's Avatar
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    I already have GW2 for when I get tired of beating up a target dummy (healer) in pvp. In pve honestly you don't notice much difference between trinity or none, at least if you're a dps anyway. I still kinda mind my own business in both systems and trinity has no effect on me either way, though there is tank & heal in GW2 raids I guess not a lot of people know that.

    I would 100% be down for no trinity in WoW pvp , would be much less cancer.. it feels like you're another instanced pve these days which is another reason BfA is trash lul.
    LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    I think we may be waiting a long time for that to happen. Maybe even forever.

  8. #68
    The system the OP is proposing wouldn't be THAT different from what the game is like now. In many ways, it feel more epic. It's not 20 players beating up 1 big bad-guy with the help of some extra NPCs. It's 20 players defeating multitudes of enemies. You feel more like a hero.

    The main difference would be no healer role. Personally I find healing to be the most boring role in the game. Can't do it. But a support role that focuses on buffs and debuffs would be a lot of fun...

    I'd like to get away from the Trinity system... but this is one of those things people have so ingrained within them, won't want to change even if another system is superior in every way.

  9. #69
    Would be a complete disaster. See GW2 clusterfuck dungeons.

  10. #70
    The result is a poorly balanced game that either requires minmaxing to complete difficult content, or there is no difficult content.

    GW2 tries this and that game has atrocious balance that leans on cookie cutter builds because there are archetype generalists that are far stronger than any niche/interesting build.

  11. #71
    Do I think there should be solo content? Absolutely. Mage Tower, for example, was a huge success.

    They could do solo scenarios and so forth. A solo campaign could be really fun and challenging.

    Do I think they should scrap the "trinity"? No. There is no trinity, there are hybrids like Disc Priests who do damage and heal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads View Post
    The system the OP is proposing wouldn't be THAT different from what the game is like now. In many ways, it feel more epic. It's not 20 players beating up 1 big bad-guy with the help of some extra NPCs. It's 20 players defeating multitudes of enemies. You feel more like a hero.

    The main difference would be no healer role. Personally I find healing to be the most boring role in the game. Can't do it. But a support role that focuses on buffs and debuffs would be a lot of fun...

    I'd like to get away from the Trinity system... but this is one of those things people have so ingrained within them, won't want to change even if another system is superior in every way.
    There are fights that had those "multitudes of enemies." Mount Hyjal raid comes to mind immediately. Unless you meant another type of multitude fight.

  12. #72
    I applauded blade and soul for going with tank+dps system. no boring healer classes. Every spec had a thing or two that could keep them alive. plus you have to execute the strategies good enough. If only this game was not designed for whales. I could spent money for a regular sub and occasional chests for item upgrades but it was still too much to keep up with.

    in before somebody says but summoner is healer...yeahhhhh righttttttt... they would fist your ass into oblivion with their cat while tearing your flesh away from range.
    Last edited by Gref; 2018-12-19 at 01:53 AM.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalorakk View Post
    The result is a poorly balanced game that either requires minmaxing to complete difficult content, or there is no difficult content.

    GW2 tries this and that game has atrocious balance that leans on cookie cutter builds because there are archetype generalists that are far stronger than any niche/interesting build.
    Why are you talking about builds? No one is talking about that but you. Of course some builds are better than others. WoW is like that now too.

    The thread is discussing roles... which are outdated.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Weeps View Post
    Do I think there should be solo content? Absolutely. Mage Tower, for example, was a huge success.

    They could do solo scenarios and so forth. A solo campaign could be really fun and challenging.

    Do I think they should scrap the "trinity"? No. There is no trinity, there are hybrids like Disc Priests who do damage and heal.

    - - - Updated - - -



    There are fights that had those "multitudes of enemies." Mount Hyjal raid comes to mind immediately. Unless you meant another type of multitude fight.
    This is not for solo content. This would be for team-play. Mount Hyjal still had 1 big boss you had to all wail on while it hit the tank... Things like threat, tanks, healers, and damage dealers are extremely old concepts introduced to meet limited technology... they're just so ingrained now, that most gamers can't picture how much better the game could be without them.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads View Post
    Why are you talking about builds? No one is talking about that but you. Of course some builds are better than others. WoW is like that now too.

    The thread is discussing roles... which are outdated.
    ...? Because builds are part of GW2's roles, the game I was using as an example of a trinity-less design.

  15. #75
    No thanks, more times than not it turn in to a HUGE zergfest.

    Actually, I think they should add support/buff type classes.
    Last edited by Azzurri; 2018-12-19 at 02:43 AM.

  16. #76
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    No thank you. The trinity is one of the few things that keep me playing WoW/FFXIV.

    Personally, I like to heal and not to dps/tank except on rare occasions.
    Mistweaver Monk | Holy Priest

  17. #77
    Scarab Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spalernTJ View Post
    The Trinity is a core component in any MMORPG, at the very least, the ones that focus on PvE, why? Because when you think "Heroic group that defeats large enemies." What comes to mind? Teamwork. People comparing dick sizes does not promote teamwork, which is what makes the Trinity a fine system in general. What I would suggest though, is expanding on the trinity. Instead of "Every man for himself" or the 3 set roles, I would personally love seeing more diversity in playstyles. Buffers / Supports come to mind. Classes designed to do less DPS, but buff the damage of others by small margins. The Paladin aura stuff is an extremely good example of this. An Aura that increases a stat by a static amount, spread out between everyone in your group. This means its not useless in smaller groups, and still beneficial in larger ones.

    I'm going to pull in an example of a DPS class from FF XIV: The bard. The Bard class does less DPS by themselves. There are much stronger DPS classes, who can pull bigger numbers, however, the bard provides a lot of buffs and utility, along with their DPS, and it is all incorporate into their own rotation. They have 3 songs, each lasting 30 seconds. Basically just a buff for themselves, each reacting differently to your dots, where it changes up though, is that whenever a song is playing, the entire raid team is buffed with extra crit chance. You can also activate a second Cooldown for your team while a song is playing, which increases hit rate. They also have access to an AoE mana and Energy replenish, which makes them big contenders for a spot on the raid team, even if their DPS isn't as high.

    The strongest DPS' in terms of raw damage, brings low to no utility. Yet, the classes are balanced enough to allow raid teams to use any class, even though there will always be a meta team, as long as numbers can be crunched, the playerbase will always find the optimal route.

    In World of Warcraft, I see plenty of opportunities for support DPS to become a thing. Warlocks cursing enemies while DPSing, making them take more damage, increase crit chance when hit, increasing the damage of people who hit them etcetera. A hunter that creates weakspots, or uses gadgets / bombs that react to other player damage. Mages buffing tanks with arcane fortitude and replenish mana for the healers. Even tiny amounts can make a big difference.
    WoW tried something like it in BC. But what happened? Lo and behold, WoW "Bard" players (i.e. Ele shamans/Ret paladins/Spriests, etc.) QQ'd to no end because they couldn't top DPS parses. Which led to WotLK's Grand Homogeneization, and here we are, where some classes/specs are still left out in the cold for high end content. And we lost a great deal of class uniqueness in the meantime.
    "This world is a prison!"

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    WoW tried something like it in BC. But what happened? Lo and behold, WoW "Bard" players (i.e. Ele shamans/Ret paladins/Spriests, etc.) QQ'd to no end because they couldn't top DPS parses. Which led to WotLK's Grand Homogeneization, and here we are, where some classes/specs are still left out in the cold for high end content. And we lost a great deal of class uniqueness in the meantime.
    I know how those played in BC, I mained a paladin back then and I personally loved it. I felt I had my own unique niches. Who's to blame for this though? Is it the community for crying? Or is it Blizzard for not putting their foot down and saying "You have all this utility and damage buffs for your team, you are doing a lot" and keeping it that way? It is hard to say. I wish they had stuck to the support mentality for some specs, heck, it might be a way to salvage some of the current dead specs, of which I don't know is, as I haven't played for roughly 2 months.

    Also, what the fuck is going on with the notion "The trinity is an old concept"? You want Blizzard to completely turn WoW into a singleplayer game? This is beyond measure of stupid.
    Last edited by spalernTJ; 2018-12-19 at 05:44 AM.

  19. #79
    Scarab Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spalernTJ View Post
    I know how those played in BC, I mained a paladin back then and I personally loved it. I felt I had my own unique niches. Who's to blame for this though? Is it the community for crying? Or is it Blizzard for not putting their foot down and saying "You have all this utility and damage buffs for your team, you are doing a lot" and keeping it that way? It is hard to say. I wish they had stuck to the support mentality for some specs, heck, it might be a way to salvage some of the current dead specs, of which I don't know is, as I haven't played for roughly 2 months.

    Also, what the fuck is going on with the notion "The trinity is an old concept"? You want Blizzard to completely turn WoW into a singleplayer game? This is beyond measure of stupid.
    You should have seen the massive QQ wave back in Vanilla/BC. It was all about OMFG MUH RUTZ PALI BAD BAD DEEPZ MUH NO HEALIN BLZ FIX PLZ. Blizzard should have stuck to their guns and iterated on their hybrid specs design, which had improved considerably in BC (by comparison to Vanilla). But Activision happened, and all classes were homogenized in order to make raiding more "accessible", Kodick (not a typo)'s buzzword at the time.

    Btw, the "holy Trinity" IS an old concept. That doesn't make it necessarily bad, though. The problem is that in its current iteration kills any sort of actual class diversity, which is in turn is made worse by the three prunes in a row that we've had to go through. And what do we have to show for it?
    "This world is a prison!"

  20. #80
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Soon-TM
    It's a neat idea. But it would require an entirely different approach to PvE (and also PvP, to an extent) from Blizzard. I don't think that the current crop of devs is particularly interested in such a fundamental revamp, or that they're even able to pull it off. After all, they are only good at pruning and trinity-based raids.
    Well, it wasn't already so impossible taking based on game original design. I mean possibilities for individual characters RPG customization (classes+talents, characteristics). I don't agree that WoW didn’t have anything to do with D&D system back then. Exactly then it was possible since such system let hybrid classes exist, and what became of them now? What become with all various characteristics that not so much reinforced "absolute" indicators of characters strength, but more players' "role" choice, even if taking into account "holy trinity" (also, this isn't ultimate truth because I repeat - don't forget support, which is 4th)? That is, any class was able to at least partially fulfill not only role assigned to it by devs, and therefore even "holy trinity" based encounters design didn't severely limit group as a whole (unbalanced from current point of view) abilities.

    Even DK, which appeared in WotLK (MoP monks weren't already), still confessed this "religion", because tanking/dd role completely depended on character RPG customization... but now... everything depends on chosen "spec" and no one care what player thinks about it (the whole "role" RPG part is integrated inside it and you can't change anything), we have only one opportunity to play - the way it was decided by Blizzard and nothing else (by the way, "gladiators" part was the only bright ray in dark realm of specs after "design cataclysm" that destroyed everything, but it was just an exception, and what became of them only proves my point). I'd call this: "MOBA mentality", but it won't be fair to game genre mentioned; in any case, this wasn't fully true for “first” DotA (much more depended on only possible customization there - collected items and their characteristics), but as for current - sorry, I'm not following latest trends in this direction, not a fan.

    Moreover, each next tricky "direction" found by players, even within limits of this dictatorial system, continues to be actively cut off by devs. Don't you notice it? Even action and slasher games rarely, but sometimes have more flexible and very often much more thoughtful (ideologically/fantasy) system.

    It came to the point that such behavior became a kind of meme for this game:
    - "Fun detected, fun nerfed/removed!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    their current slogan could sound something like this: "Player's choice freedom isn't game's advantage, but developer’s disadvantage".
    Conclusion: not "holy trinity" based design oppress current system, but poor and incoherent RPG customization one.

    ps. I'm not directly answered to quoted person, but more expressed my general thoughts on affected issue, sorry
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-07-18 at 06:58 AM.
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