Page 57 of 69 FirstFirst ...
7
47
55
56
57
58
59
67
... LastLast
  1. #1121
    Quote Originally Posted by rohoz View Post
    no, no it didn't.

    It was a catchup mechanic using easy-to-acquire currency

    It's always fun doing easy content to get mad strong.
    "Mad strong" you mean less then the level of the 10 man Normal raid in wrath? And it wasn't even every slot. To get one piece of the lower level gear, which took an average of about 40 emblems, it would take about 30+ bosses at 1 emblem a boss+2 for the dungeon on random. To get all the top, normal level, gear on the vendor it would take almost 6 months without raiding.
    Last edited by Onikaroshi; 2019-01-11 at 05:45 PM.

  2. #1122
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    "Mad strong" you mean less then the level of the 10 man Normal raid in wrath? And it wasn't even every slot. To get one piece of the lower level gear, which took an average of about 40 emblems, it would take about 30+ bosses at 1 emblem a boss+2 for the dungeon on random. To get all the top level gear on the vendor it would take almost 6 months without raiding.
    Okay, but we know some truths with one being that people didn't raid. World content in wotlk didn't scale, you effectively overgeared all casual content in 2-3 days of grinding badges.

    5 mans were the end-game, and you were able to grind past all difficulty in under a week (232 gear was about 40 levels higher than what launch dungeons were tuned for)

    That's why people loved the badge vendor in wotlk. Yes, getting random 251/264 pieces were great on top of it, but really, if you didn't raid, you were mad strong for the content that was available to you.



    which also explains why a lot of people back then would insta-leave icc 5mans, because they were tuned at 232, and were noticeably more difficult. People didn't like halls of reflection because they couldn't steamroll it the same way they could steamroll nexus or azjol-nerub.

  3. #1123
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Even then, there isn't. Because you're not going to hit anything valuable reasonably. I've heard of some guilds asking for 40... which doesn't even hit anything and will just burn people out. You can get both class rings on mythic gear with 33, 38 will get you the 3rd ring. But that's assuming you even GET mythic azerite gear the first week of mythic.
    Oh for sure. We've had the same discussions in the guild and consensus there was deffo aim for appropriate hc azerite rings but any higher is just a bonus.

  4. #1124
    Quote Originally Posted by rohoz View Post
    Okay, but we know some truths with one being that people didn't raid. World content in wotlk didn't scale, you effectively overgeared all casual content in 2-3 days of grinding badges.

    5 mans were the end-game, and you were able to grind past all difficulty in under a week (232 gear was about 40 levels higher than what launch dungeons were tuned for)

    That's why people loved the badge vendor in wotlk. Yes, getting random 251/264 pieces were great on top of it, but really, if you didn't raid, you were mad strong for the content that was available to you.



    which also explains why a lot of people back then would insta-leave icc 5mans, because they were tuned at 232, and were noticeably more difficult. People didn't like halls of reflection because they couldn't steamroll it the same way they could steamroll nexus or azjol-nerub.
    So what you're really getting at is it has nothing to do with badge gear, or whatever, moreso people just wanting to steamroll things. That's not a problem with the game, that's a problem with people.

    And I had very little issue with people leaving ICC dungeons, they dropped 232 gear and it filled the slots people weren't getting from the vendors (you only got like 5-7 slots total)

  5. #1125
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    So what you're really getting at is it has nothing to do with badge gear, or whatever, moreso people just wanting to steamroll things. That's not a problem with the game, that's a problem with people.

    And I had very little issue with people leaving ICC dungeons, they dropped 232 gear and it filled the slots people weren't getting from the vendors (you only got like 5-7 slots total)
    Eh, no I think badge gear and being able to get a guaranteed set of gear is inherently bad, because just start doing the bare minimum to acquire currency, since currency rewards almost always outscaled the source of the currency. If all you do is (using wotlk numbers here) 200 content, you shouldn't have access to *guaranteed* 232+ gear. my 2c.

    And I never said or hinted that it was a problem with the game. It's always been a problem with the playerbase, the ones that do lowest-common-denominator content or whatever.

  6. #1126
    Quote Originally Posted by rohoz View Post
    Eh, no I think badge gear and being able to get a guaranteed set of gear is inherently bad, because just start doing the bare minimum to acquire currency, since currency rewards almost always outscaled the source of the currency. If all you do is (using wotlk numbers here) 200 content, you shouldn't have access to *guaranteed* 232+ gear. my 2c.

    And I never said or hinted that it was a problem with the game. It's always been a problem with the playerbase, the ones that do lowest-common-denominator content or whatever.
    Funny thing is FFXIV has a full set of badge gear and good crafted gear and separate raid and "lfr" style gear, and very few people complain about it. It's all about player perception.

    The top end will sometimes bitch about having to grind Expert roulette to cap, but most people just play.

    Granted queued 8 mans in that game are much harder then LFR in WoW and crafting actually takes effort, so there's that.

  7. #1127
    Dreadlord Leodric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Vienna, Austria
    Posts
    899
    Quote Originally Posted by Dremmy View Post
    My arguments are about my own experience, not trying to pull raw sub data and trying to make it fit a narrative. If I went by raw sub numbers MoP was a worse expansion than Cataclysm, so let's have that sink in a bit shall we.

    Also that's not what irony means :P
    It was a worse expansion than MoP

    Quote Originally Posted by Dremmy View Post
    I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat myself here. Even if hobby football leagues were playing for exposure (which is a laughable concept) it is not a tangible reward like gear is. This is not a suitable comparison in any way, shape or form.
    I don't think it's a laughable concept, it's a valid reason. Playing for fame, many people do it. And getting gear back then = people know that one guy with full t2, it's very simple, only because you can't see one of the incentives why people got gear back then, doesn't mean it's true. You can read countless times how people talk about their vanilla experience as "seeing that one epic geared guy and thinking 'I want to look like that'".

    Quote Originally Posted by Dremmy View Post
    No you keep pointing to sub numbers as "a big sign" while dismissing the effects of age and changing playerbase as having significant effect on the game. I have carefully read your posts each and every time but you fail to come up with any compelling argument beyond "look at the sub numbers!".
    No you didn't read my posts carefully then, I wrote that it's not the ONLY reason why WoW loses sub numbers. If you look at one of my last posts, I specifically wrote "I am also not saying that this is the only theory/reason why WoW loses subs, there are many which are also justified and Blizzard frankly can't do anything against it (current generation not interested as much anymore into MMORPGs for example), but the number of sub loss is definitly way too high for a game like WoW has been." So no, you didn't read carefully .

  8. #1128
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Funny thing is FFXIV has a full set of badge gear and good crafted gear and separate raid and "lfr" style gear, and very few people complain about it. It's all about player perception.

    The top end will sometimes bitch about having to grind Expert roulette to cap, but most people just play.

    Granted queued 8 mans in that game are much harder then LFR in WoW and crafting actually takes effort, so there's that.
    and that's the thing.
    Effort invested is the key. As much as I hate garbage like rio it becomes somewhat necessary since you can't really use gear as a measuring stick cus there are loads of awful people with good gear. LFR is an abomination and should never exist, or shouldve remained as it was in WoD where it was a completely separate entity.

    There are a lot of conflicting thoughts even within myself wrt gearing and how easy it is now, and how difficult it should be, but that's another discussion for another time.

    Raid release is a HARD reset though, like, this is probably the hardest gear reset we've seen in a long whole.

  9. #1129
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    It was a worse expansion than MoP
    Ah just the answer I was expecting from you you never disappoint. Perhaps one day we can have a discussion where you can distance opinions from fact but I fear it is not this day.


    I don't think it's a laughable concept, it's a valid reason. Playing for fame, many people do it. And getting gear back then = people know that one guy with full t2, it's very simple, only because you can't see one of the incentives why people got gear back then, doesn't mean it's true. You can read countless times how people talk about their vanilla experience as "seeing that one epic geared guy and thinking 'I want to look like that'".
    It is laughable because if I organise a casual football team with friends I don't promise them fame and glory because that's a weird as hell goal for casual football.

    I'll attempt this a third time. Fame/notoriety is not tangible. It's not comparable to gear.


    No you didn't read my posts carefully then, I wrote that it's not the ONLY reason why WoW loses sub numbers. If you look at one of my last posts, I specifically wrote "I am also not saying that this is the only theory/reason why WoW loses subs, there are many which are also justified and Blizzard frankly can't do anything against it (current generation not interested as much anymore into MMORPGs for example), but the number of sub loss is definitly way too high for a game like WoW has been." So no, you didn't read carefully .
    You've said numerous times you feel sub numbers are a significant indicator to a decline in quality and then every time I address that you keep shifting the goal posts to "there are other factors involved you're just not reading". Either stop shifting the goal posts or I'll just have to treat this as what it is, mindless trolling.

  10. #1130
    Dreadlord Leodric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Vienna, Austria
    Posts
    899
    Quote Originally Posted by Dremmy View Post
    It is laughable because if I organise a casual football team with friends I don't promise them fame and glory because that's a weird as hell goal for casual football.
    I'll attempt this a third time. Fame/notoriety is not tangible. It's not comparable to gear.
    I think you misinterpret that quite a bit here. Nobody is promising anyone fame and glory while doing it. It's about incentive to join such a club AND perform in a league for the motivation of people getting to know you being a good football player, it's a nice feeling to get recognition when being good in something, hence why getting epic gear back then in vanilla felt good because of standing out of the normal crowd. I always saw people posing infront of the ironforge bridge with their new mount/gear or whatever and it was also a nice feeling to admire these people for the effort they put in and getting the feeling of "man, I want to have that too". That's what I also felt like when I saw a Hunter with the Rhok'Delar Bow, I wanted to have it as well and it gave me another motivation of raiding MC. It's a very simple concept, I don't understand why it's so hard for you to grasp that this was a huuuge incentive back then in WoW to raid. Shiny epics and looking cool/unique


    Quote Originally Posted by Dremmy View Post
    You've said numerous times you feel sub numbers are a significant indicator to a decline in quality and then every time I address that you keep shifting the goal posts to "there are other factors involved you're just not reading". Either stop shifting the goal posts or I'll just have to treat this as what it is, mindless trolling.
    So you didn't read my posts as I asked you too, since you are moving the "goal post" now lol. Yep they are a siginificant indicator, never said they weren't. What I said numerous times is that there are other reasons as well why sub numbers dropped. I think we established that by me quoting what I've said.

  11. #1131
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    I think you misinterpret that quite a bit here. Nobody is promising anyone fame and glory while doing it. It's about incentive to join such a club AND perform in a league for the motivation of people getting to know you being a good football player, it's a nice feeling to get recognition when being good in something, hence why getting epic gear back then in vanilla felt good because of standing out of the normal crowd. I always saw people posing infront of the ironforge bridge with their new mount/gear or whatever and it was also a nice feeling to admire these people for the effort they put in and getting the feeling of "man, I want to have that too". That's what I also felt like when I saw a Hunter with the Rhok'Delar Bow, I wanted to have it as well and it gave me another motivation of raiding MC. It's a very simple concept, I don't understand why it's so hard for you to grasp that this was a huuuge incentive back then in WoW to raid. Shiny epics and looking cool/unique
    I think I'll let my comment of tangible rewards aren't equatable to vague "being known" aspects in real life not being compatible hang here then

    I've also explained umpteen times that any reference to Vanilla/TBC epics are flawed by them being the only reward structure but don't let that stop you using them as examples.

    So you didn't read my posts as I asked you too, since you are moving the "goal post" now lol. Yep they are a siginificant indicator, never said they weren't. What I said numerous times is that there are other reasons as well why sub numbers dropped. I think we established that by me quoting what I've said.
    More "you didn't read" accusations. Sad to see but I've made every attempt to discuss this in a civil manner but you're dead set against this for whatever reason. Happy to discuss more topics if you're willing to actually give it a go.

  12. #1132
    Dreadlord Leodric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Vienna, Austria
    Posts
    899
    Quote Originally Posted by Dremmy View Post
    I think I'll let my comment of tangible rewards aren't equatable to vague "being known" aspects in real life not being compatible hang here then
    But they are, I already explained it, the reason why I didn't write it again.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dremmy View Post
    I've also explained umpteen times that any reference to Vanilla/TBC epics are flawed by them being the only reward structure but don't let that stop you using them as examples.
    It's a very valid example, obviously they are not a big reward structure now since you can get it everywhere easily. Achievements/Titles simple aren't comparable in that case imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dremmy View Post
    More "you didn't read" accusations. Sad to see but I've made every attempt to discuss this in a civil manner but you're dead set against this for whatever reason. Happy to discuss more topics if you're willing to actually give it a go.
    I just pointed out that I've already explained several of your arguments you keep repeating. I don't see what you mean with civil manner in that case, didn't see being uncivil here.

  13. #1133
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    But they are, I already explained it, the reason why I didn't write it again.


    It's a very valid example, obviously they are not a big reward structure now since you can get it everywhere easily. Achievements/Titles simple aren't comparable in that case imo.

    I just pointed out that I've already explained several of your arguments you keep repeating. I don't see what you mean with civil manner in that case, didn't see being uncivil here.
    Unfortunately dismissing comments isn't an explanation of arguments, but you're free to feel otherwise.

    Until then do keep a close eye on those sub numbers :P

  14. #1134
    Dreadlord Leodric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Vienna, Austria
    Posts
    899
    Quote Originally Posted by Dremmy View Post
    Unfortunately dismissing comments isn't an explanation of arguments, but you're free to feel otherwise.

    Until then do keep a close eye on those sub numbers :P
    I explained your comments, if you think I didn't explain a specific one well enough just point it out and I can explain it again.

    I will, hopfully they will show them again, heavily doubt it tho

  15. #1135
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    I explained your comments, if you think I didn't explain a specific one well enough just point it out and I can explain it again.
    Afraid you didn't actually but have no desire to have more of my discussions dismissed so I'll bid you good day

  16. #1136
    Dreadlord Leodric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Vienna, Austria
    Posts
    899
    Quote Originally Posted by Dremmy View Post
    Afraid you didn't actually but have no desire to have more of my discussions dismissed so I'll bid you good day
    If I didn't then point them out to me lol

  17. #1137
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    If I didn't then point them out to me lol
    I said good day

  18. #1138
    Dreadlord Leodric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Vienna, Austria
    Posts
    899
    Quote Originally Posted by rohoz View Post
    and that's the thing.
    Effort invested is the key. As much as I hate garbage like rio it becomes somewhat necessary since you can't really use gear as a measuring stick cus there are loads of awful people with good gear. LFR is an abomination and should never exist, or shouldve remained as it was in WoD where it was a completely separate entity.

    There are a lot of conflicting thoughts even within myself wrt gearing and how easy it is now, and how difficult it should be, but that's another discussion for another time.

    Raid release is a HARD reset though, like, this is probably the hardest gear reset we've seen in a long whole.
    I think with the current knowledge the "taking gear as a measuring" stick wouldn't work back then. People with good gear could still be bad as fuck and you couldn't know without the right tools which were not as available back then. But I agree that rio is necessary unfortunatly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dremmy View Post
    I said good day
    luls
    Last edited by Leodric; 2019-01-11 at 07:21 PM.

  19. #1139
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    You can read countless times how people talk about their vanilla experience as "seeing that one epic geared guy and thinking 'I want to look like that'".
    Transmog killed that, and we both know that transmog is never going away.

  20. #1140
    Dreadlord Leodric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Vienna, Austria
    Posts
    899
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyranis View Post
    Transmog killed that, and we both know that transmog is never going away.
    True, in the long run it was a mistake in my opinion, or maybe they could have made it diffrent.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •