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  1. #1161
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    It was a worse expansion than MoP
    Ah just the answer I was expecting from you you never disappoint. Perhaps one day we can have a discussion where you can distance opinions from fact but I fear it is not this day.


    I don't think it's a laughable concept, it's a valid reason. Playing for fame, many people do it. And getting gear back then = people know that one guy with full t2, it's very simple, only because you can't see one of the incentives why people got gear back then, doesn't mean it's true. You can read countless times how people talk about their vanilla experience as "seeing that one epic geared guy and thinking 'I want to look like that'".
    It is laughable because if I organise a casual football team with friends I don't promise them fame and glory because that's a weird as hell goal for casual football.

    I'll attempt this a third time. Fame/notoriety is not tangible. It's not comparable to gear.


    No you didn't read my posts carefully then, I wrote that it's not the ONLY reason why WoW loses sub numbers. If you look at one of my last posts, I specifically wrote "I am also not saying that this is the only theory/reason why WoW loses subs, there are many which are also justified and Blizzard frankly can't do anything against it (current generation not interested as much anymore into MMORPGs for example), but the number of sub loss is definitly way too high for a game like WoW has been." So no, you didn't read carefully .
    You've said numerous times you feel sub numbers are a significant indicator to a decline in quality and then every time I address that you keep shifting the goal posts to "there are other factors involved you're just not reading". Either stop shifting the goal posts or I'll just have to treat this as what it is, mindless trolling.

  2. #1162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dremmy View Post
    It is laughable because if I organise a casual football team with friends I don't promise them fame and glory because that's a weird as hell goal for casual football.
    I'll attempt this a third time. Fame/notoriety is not tangible. It's not comparable to gear.
    I think you misinterpret that quite a bit here. Nobody is promising anyone fame and glory while doing it. It's about incentive to join such a club AND perform in a league for the motivation of people getting to know you being a good football player, it's a nice feeling to get recognition when being good in something, hence why getting epic gear back then in vanilla felt good because of standing out of the normal crowd. I always saw people posing infront of the ironforge bridge with their new mount/gear or whatever and it was also a nice feeling to admire these people for the effort they put in and getting the feeling of "man, I want to have that too". That's what I also felt like when I saw a Hunter with the Rhok'Delar Bow, I wanted to have it as well and it gave me another motivation of raiding MC. It's a very simple concept, I don't understand why it's so hard for you to grasp that this was a huuuge incentive back then in WoW to raid. Shiny epics and looking cool/unique


    Quote Originally Posted by Dremmy View Post
    You've said numerous times you feel sub numbers are a significant indicator to a decline in quality and then every time I address that you keep shifting the goal posts to "there are other factors involved you're just not reading". Either stop shifting the goal posts or I'll just have to treat this as what it is, mindless trolling.
    So you didn't read my posts as I asked you too, since you are moving the "goal post" now lol. Yep they are a siginificant indicator, never said they weren't. What I said numerous times is that there are other reasons as well why sub numbers dropped. I think we established that by me quoting what I've said.

  3. #1163
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    I think you misinterpret that quite a bit here. Nobody is promising anyone fame and glory while doing it. It's about incentive to join such a club AND perform in a league for the motivation of people getting to know you being a good football player, it's a nice feeling to get recognition when being good in something, hence why getting epic gear back then in vanilla felt good because of standing out of the normal crowd. I always saw people posing infront of the ironforge bridge with their new mount/gear or whatever and it was also a nice feeling to admire these people for the effort they put in and getting the feeling of "man, I want to have that too". That's what I also felt like when I saw a Hunter with the Rhok'Delar Bow, I wanted to have it as well and it gave me another motivation of raiding MC. It's a very simple concept, I don't understand why it's so hard for you to grasp that this was a huuuge incentive back then in WoW to raid. Shiny epics and looking cool/unique
    I think I'll let my comment of tangible rewards aren't equatable to vague "being known" aspects in real life not being compatible hang here then

    I've also explained umpteen times that any reference to Vanilla/TBC epics are flawed by them being the only reward structure but don't let that stop you using them as examples.

    So you didn't read my posts as I asked you too, since you are moving the "goal post" now lol. Yep they are a siginificant indicator, never said they weren't. What I said numerous times is that there are other reasons as well why sub numbers dropped. I think we established that by me quoting what I've said.
    More "you didn't read" accusations. Sad to see but I've made every attempt to discuss this in a civil manner but you're dead set against this for whatever reason. Happy to discuss more topics if you're willing to actually give it a go.

  4. #1164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dremmy View Post
    I think I'll let my comment of tangible rewards aren't equatable to vague "being known" aspects in real life not being compatible hang here then
    But they are, I already explained it, the reason why I didn't write it again.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dremmy View Post
    I've also explained umpteen times that any reference to Vanilla/TBC epics are flawed by them being the only reward structure but don't let that stop you using them as examples.
    It's a very valid example, obviously they are not a big reward structure now since you can get it everywhere easily. Achievements/Titles simple aren't comparable in that case imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dremmy View Post
    More "you didn't read" accusations. Sad to see but I've made every attempt to discuss this in a civil manner but you're dead set against this for whatever reason. Happy to discuss more topics if you're willing to actually give it a go.
    I just pointed out that I've already explained several of your arguments you keep repeating. I don't see what you mean with civil manner in that case, didn't see being uncivil here.

  5. #1165
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    But they are, I already explained it, the reason why I didn't write it again.


    It's a very valid example, obviously they are not a big reward structure now since you can get it everywhere easily. Achievements/Titles simple aren't comparable in that case imo.

    I just pointed out that I've already explained several of your arguments you keep repeating. I don't see what you mean with civil manner in that case, didn't see being uncivil here.
    Unfortunately dismissing comments isn't an explanation of arguments, but you're free to feel otherwise.

    Until then do keep a close eye on those sub numbers :P

  6. #1166
    Dreadlord Leodric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dremmy View Post
    Unfortunately dismissing comments isn't an explanation of arguments, but you're free to feel otherwise.

    Until then do keep a close eye on those sub numbers :P
    I explained your comments, if you think I didn't explain a specific one well enough just point it out and I can explain it again.

    I will, hopfully they will show them again, heavily doubt it tho

  7. #1167
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    I explained your comments, if you think I didn't explain a specific one well enough just point it out and I can explain it again.
    Afraid you didn't actually but have no desire to have more of my discussions dismissed so I'll bid you good day

  8. #1168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dremmy View Post
    Afraid you didn't actually but have no desire to have more of my discussions dismissed so I'll bid you good day
    If I didn't then point them out to me lol

  9. #1169
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    If I didn't then point them out to me lol
    I said good day

  10. #1170
    Dreadlord Leodric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohoz View Post
    and that's the thing.
    Effort invested is the key. As much as I hate garbage like rio it becomes somewhat necessary since you can't really use gear as a measuring stick cus there are loads of awful people with good gear. LFR is an abomination and should never exist, or shouldve remained as it was in WoD where it was a completely separate entity.

    There are a lot of conflicting thoughts even within myself wrt gearing and how easy it is now, and how difficult it should be, but that's another discussion for another time.

    Raid release is a HARD reset though, like, this is probably the hardest gear reset we've seen in a long whole.
    I think with the current knowledge the "taking gear as a measuring" stick wouldn't work back then. People with good gear could still be bad as fuck and you couldn't know without the right tools which were not as available back then. But I agree that rio is necessary unfortunatly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dremmy View Post
    I said good day
    luls
    Last edited by Leodric; 2019-01-11 at 07:21 PM.

  11. #1171
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    You can read countless times how people talk about their vanilla experience as "seeing that one epic geared guy and thinking 'I want to look like that'".
    Transmog killed that, and we both know that transmog is never going away.

  12. #1172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyranis View Post
    Transmog killed that, and we both know that transmog is never going away.
    True, in the long run it was a mistake in my opinion, or maybe they could have made it diffrent.

  13. #1173
    Quote Originally Posted by schmonz View Post
    But the difference was not big. The R-14 items had T2 quality.
    more stamina, less dps stats than higer tier naxx

  14. #1174
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    True, in the long run it was a mistake in my opinion, or maybe they could have made it diffrent.
    Maybe limit it to 2-3 pieces at any given time?

  15. #1175
    Just took my newly dinged 120 Death Knight to the World Boss in Darkshore... BOOOM!... instant 2x 385 gear (boots and trinket). It's such a joke!

  16. #1176
    Quote Originally Posted by xindralol View Post
    more stamina, less dps stats than higer tier naxx
    weapons were > bwl too.
    Also, hybrid classes

  17. #1177
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    True, in the long run it was a mistake in my opinion, or maybe they could have made it diffrent.
    Well they could remove gear from atles mythic raid when new patch hits. Or give atleast some extra cosmetic set for Cutting edge achievement. Exclusive visuals are far more appeling than some achievement.

  18. #1178
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    Quote Originally Posted by omegalulz View Post
    It is absolutely pathetic to see that people with no Mythic progression what so ever (or at best Taloc/Mother in pugs) have the exact same ilvl as my main that progressed trough Udlir and now counts 44 mythic boss killed actually sitting at 385 ilvl. I also see that with my alts, my DH is 384 and rogue 385 ilvl, both are not even close to have the same time and effort invested of my main.

    Truth is, Mythic raiding will only give you gear a little bit faster in this game, but at the end of the day: Blizzard is just throwing Mythic ilvl gear to everybody and for no reason. Just for the sake of everybody being equal, even if you don't do shit in this game they want you to be as geared a hardcore player.

    This was already the case in Legion but in BFA this issue has just been so inflated it's seems like a parody. This game has gone to pure shit in every way possible it's fucking pathetic.
    +10 is somewhat as hard as taloc or mother. Plus you got to 385 in what? 3 months of expansion? And others are just getting here now with warfronts catch up and when +10 is a joke to complete. You have cutting edge and they have not. It is unusual for RPG genre for scrubs to be on the same gear grounds as "heroes", but WoW has been like this since.... MoP? It just got easier through WoD and Legion. Show off your skill Plus ilvl means shit if you just put any random rings and trinkets on just because ilvl. Or play on RP realm and be a hero there.

  19. #1179
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmoc53288efaec View Post
    +10 is somewhat as hard as taloc or mother. Plus you got to 385 in what? 3 months of expansion? And others are just getting here now with warfronts catch up and when +10 is a joke to complete. You have cutting edge and they have not. It is unusual for RPG genre for scrubs to be on the same gear grounds as "heroes", but WoW has been like this since.... MoP? It just got easier through WoD and Legion. Show off your skill Plus ilvl means shit if you just put any random rings and trinkets on just because ilvl. Or play on RP realm and be a hero there.
    Warfront isnt catch up. Everything rewards now 385 or 370 will reward 400+ when raid launches and it will get worse as new patches will add new ways to earn welfare gear as 3rd wardfront will be introduct etc. Mythic+ will never be harder than Raids no matter of mechanic for simple fact you have less players in group which alredy makes content easyer and managing mythic raid is alredy much harder than 5 man group. Time should never be included as metric for rewards. Just becouse mythic raiders gets 385 faster isnt excuse for such welfare rewards.

  20. #1180
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Just took my newly dinged 120 Death Knight to the World Boss in Darkshore... BOOOM!... instant 2x 385 gear (boots and trinket). It's such a joke!
    Sweet, you are now 295 and ready for Uldir (assuming you were 280 when you dinged)! Get to those invasions for your 320 gear or whatever they drop for you. You're basically a Mythic raider on that death knight now.

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