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  1. #1301
    Quote Originally Posted by Mashanerz View Post
    I think a lot of the issue there stems from how quickly characters cap out and how fast blizzard cannibalizes content.

    Raider io isn't the solution, it's just the same problem with a different name. Plenty of times I've grouped with 1k folks that are just terrible and force my group to go into hardcore carry mode. Unless we want to kick and just straight up concede the key (and be jerks) then we're just making the problem worse by helping contribute to his inflated io score. (that doesn't talk to folks that buy runs either)

    But then going back to what I mean about "characters cap out too quickly", think about how long it took for good players to hit 380 ilvl? We had folks walking into mythic raids that were already 380+ which means the bar is pretty low for others to catch up, and blizz makes it faster and faster for them to catch up before making it all completely useless with the new 'season' of raids/PvP.

    I wonder what others think about this model? In older variations like Vanilla and TBC, you didn't get (as many of) those catch up mechanics. If you wanted to raid AQ40, you had to go through BWL first at the very least but generally started in MC.
    This. you want to raid BfD, then raid uldir first. Would keep people playing longer, and leave at least some margin between people who put effort into the game, and ppl who just smash keys with their face.

  2. #1302
    Quote Originally Posted by klepp0906 View Post
    This. you want to raid BfD, then raid uldir first. Would keep people playing longer, and leave at least some margin between people who put effort into the game, and ppl who just smash keys with their face.
    We had that in BC and it led to widespread player poaching. Wasting progress time to run old raids for your new recruits was shit, there has to be some kind of system that lets players get ready for the current raid more or less by themselves.

  3. #1303
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    We had that in BC and it led to widespread player poaching. Wasting progress time to run old raids for your new recruits was shit, there has to be some kind of system that lets players get ready for the current raid more or less by themselves.
    And there is absolutly norhing wrong about it. It is called social dynamic. And if you will fight this you will lose comunnity. Oh wait....

  4. #1304
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    And there is absolutly norhing wrong about it. It is called social dynamic. And if you will fight this you will lose comunnity. Oh wait....
    the game community still exists. Hell, half of you parrot ideas from streamers, what do you think hanging around streamers is if not being part of a community?

  5. #1305
    Quote Originally Posted by rohoz View Post
    the game community still exists. Hell, half of you parrot ideas from streamers, what do you think hanging around streamers is if not being part of a community?
    The game community is a shell of what it once was. Just because a community exists doesn't mean it's as alive or vibrant as it once was.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    We had that in BC and it led to widespread player poaching. Wasting progress time to run old raids for your new recruits was shit, there has to be some kind of system that lets players get ready for the current raid more or less by themselves.
    First of all, player poaching is still widespread. Second of all, this issue is solved by making attunements account bound and not making the requirements super involved. Uldir attunement should have been, for example:

    - Complete Nazmir Storyline
    - Explore Nazmir
    - Reach Revered with Talanji's Expedition
    - Complete Mythic Underrot
    (Alliance version would require an actual questline that introduces Uldir and makes it relevant to their experience)

    These are all things that you can get done easily before the raid is even out and that will be mostly done in the first few weeks of the expansion by any player. It requires a small amount of effort one time to get into the raid. Poaching for attunements is not required because the attunement does not require a guild to obtain. Now everybody that SHOULD be doing Uldir IS doing Uldir. Now comes BoDa, attunement is simple: Kill G'huun on Normal difficulty or higher. Make this RETROACTIVE so that you don't have to go back and kill him again if you've already done it. Congratulations, you have just kept Uldir relevant for a lot of people. You have prevented bad players from accessing higher tiers of content until they learn how to be good players. Poaching is no worse than it is now. Mythic 0 dungeons do not need to be scaled up, as they are still useful for progressing into Normal Uldir for the BoDa attunement.

    Next, have gear scaling match your attunement level. Low effort gear sources like WQs/WFs drop up to 340 gear if you have not killed G'huun. If you have not killed him on NORMAL, you don't need anything better than 340 gear. If you have killed him, when BoDa comes out those low effort sources scale up to 370. If you cannot kill Jaina/Rastakahn on NORMAL. You do not need better gear than that to finish the raid on normal.

    Mythic + does not need to change. Gear still scales up starting from +2. If you have not cleared every Mythic+ at +10 OR killed Normal G'huun by the time BoDa comes out, the item level rewards remain as they are now. If you have, they scale up to our current season 2 values.

    These changes lock players out of content they have no business doing. They give players on the lower end of the spectrum something to work towards. They make your progression in M+ and raids meaningful outside of item level increases. The attunements are easy enough that any competent player will have completed them, so you typically won't need to go back and do them again for alts or recruits. Any recruit for BoDa that hasn't killed Normal G'huun really has no business moving into the next tier, they still need to beat the prior one. They are account bound so you only have to do it once, solving the issue of reattuning alts. Gear is now relevant at all levels of play. Mythic 0 and past tiers stay relevant all expansion long. New and returning players have to work their way up from the bottom, experiencing ALL of the expansions content, rather than be thrown right into the mix only experiencing the newest thing.

    I promise you, if you make WoW be less accessible and make rewards feel like rewards again people will come back to it.

  6. #1306
    Quote Originally Posted by temple1906 View Post
    I promise you, if you make WoW be less accessible and make rewards feel like rewards again people will come back to it.
    You should design a WoW killer. Call it World of... hmm.. Wildstar.
    I'm sure it'll be a huge success!

  7. #1307
    Quote Originally Posted by Greyscale View Post
    You should design a WoW killer. Call it World of... hmm.. Wildstar.
    I'm sure it'll be a huge success!
    Yeah too bad that Wildstar being exclusive have nothing to do with its downfall but keep that telling ypurself.

  8. #1308
    I can't wait to see how many people will reach level 60 and actually participate in "end game" contents once WoW classic is released. I have a strong sentiment that only people who are into raiding will be playing the game.

  9. #1309
    Quote Originally Posted by Elidan456 View Post
    I can't wait to see how many people will reach level 60 and actually participate in "end game" contents once WoW classic is released. I have a strong sentiment that only people who are into raiding will be playing the game.
    Not like you can play Classic without raiding right? Yesh shocing but vannila end game wasnt about raiding only.

  10. #1310
    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    You clearly forgot the FISHING in vanilla-BG's or the simple AUTO_RUNNING for HOURS in BG's just to get honor/rank/free-blue-gear for NOTHING, you didn't even have to be close to your PC, since most AFK mechanics were missing.

    Current WoW at least forces you to play for FREE GEAR, in the past is was not even needed to even sit before your screen.

    Even most R14 players were AFK-winning their grind with zero consequences, since Blizzard did not care for PvP cheating/wintrading/AFKing for a very long time. Accountsharing was commonly used for the honor farm without any bans, it was ridiculous - casual players who did not raid, not farm, did nothing, had blue/epic gear from PvP without doing any BGs themselfs.

    You guys heave clearly no idea how ridiculous and unregulated the game was back then.
    I have reached 14 rank back in the days and have never seen high rank afk player, honestly barely seen any afk players with autorun and etc since they got reported and banned for it on sight so nobody would risk it. Account sharing was common - yes, since it was nearly impossible to reach 14 rank without it on high populated competitve server, i have farmed it with my brother and still was tough and wouldn't go for it on classic release for sure.
    Full set of blue gear on rank 10 required pretty lot of farming and weeks to play on pvp since u had like 1 or 1,5 rank for even high standing so still like 7-8 weeks minimum, while i can gear up fully in a week in BFA or even faster.

  11. #1311
    Quote Originally Posted by craigw View Post
    I don't see how anyone can say gearing alts is hard. I hit 120 on my DK 3 days ago, the next day I was 355. three days in I am 369. ridiculously easy. and I am not purchasing one thing off the AH. I make what I need myself. and if you say no one cares about logs then its clear you don't parse and have no logs to show. people who are good care about logs. people who are shit say..."who cares about logs"
    It's the ones who fill any open time with another alt. Content droughts are the big one where they fill in even more alts and get used to maintaining them. New expansions and content launches disrupt their schedule and force them to put aside some alts for a brief time. The mainstays of the official forums that call themselves casual put in over 20 hours a week while claiming to not have enough time to do organized raiding. Technically it is true as they do not have time to do those runs on all their alts. Overall time wise many of these fake casuals have time to run in hardcore progression guilds to do the things they claim they dont have time to do. Even more a portion are guild progression mythic raiders posting on alts who want their alts to be comparable to their mains in order to switch if Blizzard ever nerfs their main. Many of the "casuals" are very pro-raid or die as long as it suits them. Guess who shuts down threads asking for anti-afk systems similar to PVP to be built into LFR. You would think the ones who always bitch about "hard core raiders" being the afkers would be all up in support of it and yet these altohalics act the opposite.

  12. #1312
    Quote Originally Posted by rohoz View Post
    the game community still exists. Hell, half of you parrot ideas from streamers, what do you think hanging around streamers is if not being part of a community?
    you are mistaking the game community with bunch of toxic addicts who refuse to let go of game they dont like anymore

  13. #1313
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Not like you can play Classic without raiding right? Yesh shocing but vannila end game wasnt about raiding only.
    Pretty much only raiding. We are not in 2004 where people are happy to run around in IF/Ogrimmar and run AV for 5 hours for no reasons. You got your blues from dungeon? Great, wait the set 0.5 patch and go do some pvp, but don't except to ever get a PVP epic piece unless you nolife it in a pre-made group.

  14. #1314
    Quote Originally Posted by Elidan456 View Post
    Pretty much only raiding. We are not in 2004 where people are happy to run around in IF/Ogrimmar and run AV for 5 hours for no reasons. You got your blues from dungeon? Great, wait the set 0.5 patch and go do some pvp, but don't except to ever get a PVP epic piece unless you nolife it in a pre-made group.
    Yep and that itself will take you months and to some people even years. So there is plenty to do for non raider at lvl 60. And thats for 1 class.

  15. #1315
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Yep and that itself will take you months and to some people even years. So there is plenty to do for non raider at lvl 60. And thats for 1 class.
    Months? Years? Did you even get to 60? I went through the 10 men Strat and 20 men UBRS HELL and I managed to get most of my pre-stats rewamp blue set and other items with a Kroll blade and a trashy epic ring on the way.

    Anyway, I'll have my popcorn ready once Classic is out and people starts complaining that there is nothing to do if you don't raid.
    Last edited by Elidan456; 2019-01-16 at 09:00 AM.

  16. #1316
    Quote Originally Posted by Elidan456 View Post
    Months? Years? Did you ever even get to 60? I went through the 10 men Strat and 20 men UBRS HELL and I managed to get most of my blue pre-stats rewamp blue set.

    Anyway, I'll have my popcorn ready once Classic is out and people starts complaining that there is nothing to do if you don't raid.
    I am talking about casual audience what have about few hours of week to play game.

  17. #1317
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    I am talking about casual audience what have about few hours of week to play game.
    that audience will take half of year to level up just enough time to jump in into easy ZG gear

    honesly i think that unless someone will go full progress mode i would advice to spend first few months just on leveling up because then gearing up will be very rapid when stuff like ZG and pvp gear appears.

    it will be much better use of your time .

  18. #1318
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    you are mistaking the game community with bunch of toxic addicts who refuse to let go of game they dont like anymore
    eh, nah.
    There are tons of communities built around the non whining streamers; pvpers, high level M+.
    That's the evolution of the community. Kids seem to forget that WoW was pre-social media.

  19. #1319
    Mythic raiding is a meme at this point

  20. #1320
    good, imo
    should not be any diferenc between gear
    is a vidoe game, i am not playign but i play Destiny 2 and there if u raid u get good gear and if u dotn raid U ALSO GET GOOD GEAR
    And ever1 is ok and hhappy
    i raided last night Last wish, got crap weapion
    i did this morning 2 forges , i got God Roll hand cannon

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