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  1. #1

    Shamans are perfectly viable.

    Right now that’s an issue with the perception of Shamans. numbers wise shamans can put them up, both Elemental and Enhancement, however the perception of Shamans in 8.0 has led to you guys into having a harder time when in reality you’re perfectly viable. I wish I had a solution to this right now but its something we’re aware of and know it becomes a problem if a class is known as “struggling”. One of those unfortunate WoW things when it comes to community discussion on viability that has existed since Vanilla.

    Little off topic from OPs original post but just letting you know its something we’re aware of.
    So don't worry if you can't get in to a group, it's the players fault not the developers, remind the players and I'm sure they'll recruit you. We bring enough to a group to be 100% viable pick, the players just get it wrong so many times.


  2. #2
    Bloodsail Admiral Makabreska's Avatar
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    Well, I defo saw a rise of enh, ele and shadow (and demo locks for some reason) in M+ since 8.1. And they put good nubmers aswell.
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2019-01-05 at 03:03 PM.
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Well, I defo saw a rise of enh, ele and shadow (and demo locks for some reason) in M+ since 8.1. Perception will adjust.
    Shamans have given feedback since alpha on the problems the specs have been suffering with and blizzard have ignored us. Then nearly six months later Ion says shaman community are on #SuicideWatch and now eight months later blizzard remind us we're perfectly viable and it's just the perception of players, well they can fuck right off. Blizzard have stopped listening to it's players, it's clear. When a problem arises it's the players and communities fault and not them for making such a piss poor attempt at class balance in BFA.

    Lets not forget enhancements talent changes in 8.1 counting as a rework!
    Last edited by Razaron; 2019-01-05 at 03:16 PM.

  4. #4
    Herald of the Titans Kyphael's Avatar
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    Haha, I love it when Blizzard says it's not the game, it's the players. It's amazing how much in denial they are regarding their game design. It keeps getting harder to defend them when they deny, deny, deny, instead of owning up to their mistakes.

  5. #5
    I’m still waiting to hear what our niche is supposed to be. Warming the bench?

  6. #6
    What is wrong with Shaman at the moment? A shaman pug can't be that much worse than the average pug. In fact, that level of dedication would lead me to believe that they're actually likely to be better.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    What is wrong with Shaman at the moment? A shaman pug can't be that much worse than the average pug. In fact, that level of dedication would lead me to believe that they're actually likely to be better.
    Well I do find shaman players are just better players. All our shamans that swapped to other classes have excelled in their new roles.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    What is wrong with Shaman at the moment? A shaman pug can't be that much worse than the average pug. In fact, that level of dedication would lead me to believe that they're actually likely to be better.
    I think the main complaint thats been going on with shamans since bfa beta is that the gameplay was crap not just the numbers suck. Blizzard promised to finish the class and some others in 8.1 and all they got amounted to what is the usual number tweak in a hotfix so people are just upset. Because nothing really changed the mindset that they stuck didnt change either.

  9. #9
    There is still community bias. My Boomy can get into groups no problem. I have same ilvl and experience on my Ele but can only do high keys with guildies. One change that can really help out is to lower the CD on Earth Ele. I know many times my Boom is taken because of Treants. Blizz should lower the CD and duration of Earth Ele by 50%.

  10. #10
    Except shamans are viable. Some of the highest simming dps are Ele, SV, Balance, and Enhance.
    Now I know that doesn’t mean they have that damage in practice, but according to Blizz’s metrics these are all viable specs for what they do.
    The problem is that they are not technically viable. None of these specs really bring anything that other specs do and still prove to be as useful, and that’s terrible design.

  11. #11
    I mean they are right. The shaman do seem viable. BUT they are not right that it is the player's fault. It is their fault for taking so many months to fix an issue that was glaringly obvious. So fuck them.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Jotaux View Post
    I’m still waiting to hear what our niche is supposed to be. Warming the bench?
    Maybe your niche, specifically.

    Shamans in my guild aren't having any trouble pugging 11-15's and I don't have any reservation about picking up shamans if I'm pugging a player. I've never even thought about it, except in the cases where I've favored having one for bl + a bonus stun totem, on top of hex and an interrupt on a super short cd.

  13. #13
    I have to agree with Blizzard on this one. To me is painfully obvious that players just get it in their heads that a particular spec isn't "viable" and the only way for them to entertain the idea that might no be the case Blizzard would have to turn said spec into the most glaring FotM they can.

    Look, at the end of the day, they have the real hard data and you would have to be profoundly cynical person to truly believe they intentionally let under performing specs to go on for long stretches of time. Player perception is a bitch and when the community decides something is not viable for whatever reason and by whatever metric its nearly impossible to "tweak" that.

  14. #14
    Actually so out of touch it's unreal. How many times do they say "don't look at sims, the dps doesn't matter!!!", then they reference shaman dps saying they're fine.

    Shamans being bad isn't a perception problem, it's toolkit problem. It's always been a toolkit problem. Ele (when it's balanced for decent dps) is good at AOE, cleave, and short burst single target. Enhance (when it's balanced for decent dps) is good at single target. Their utility is trash. Compare enhance to rogue, or DH, or really any other melee. Compare ele to warlock or mage or moonkin.

    The class is garbage because it's just straight up worse than other classes, but blizzard are just continuing to do their PR blunder press run for BFA and blaming player perception yet again.

  15. #15
    Blizzard are the noobs, they are the casuals, the problem is they're making the game, no point arguing with noobs.
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  16. #16
    They may be fine but they are fucking boring.

    But at least all other classes are also boring so nobody has an advantage.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by caballitomalo View Post
    I have to agree with Blizzard on this one. To me is painfully obvious that players just get it in their heads that a particular spec isn't "viable" and the only way for them to entertain the idea that might no be the case Blizzard would have to turn said spec into the most glaring FotM they can.
    The difference between something like Enhance and a Rogue spec or Havoc DH's isn't just something that people overexaggerate, it's there and it is very impactful, question is just if someone is doing content for that to be relevant.

    People look for the path of least resistance and people look what other players are doing and try to adapt from there, it's the way of things.
    There are more than enough people even among the more dedicated playerbase that wants to stick to a certain class and wouldn't just reroll because they could in therory do 1% more Dps, that's not how it is.
    The difference however is, at least in regards to Dps Shaman in the broad picture, much bigger than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by caballitomalo View Post
    Look, at the end of the day, they have the real hard data and you would have to be profoundly cynical person to truly believe they intentionally let under performing specs to go on for long stretches of time.
    The problem is quite simply that history speaks against them here.

    PvE has a serious Status quo issue as far as Dps Balance is concerned, certain classes / specs *just* happen to turn out very good almost every expansion cycle, be it due inherit strengths such as mobility, immunities or other unique utility but you can't deny that there is a pattern.

    Both Elemental and Enhancement have had only fringe appearance for most Mythic (or previously Heroic) raiding guilds, because ever since Wotlk they were not that good.
    At best average Dps, no unique utility to speak off, bad to average defense to speak of, spec(s) with such downsides simply aren't good.

    If a spec is just a bad Mage / Rogue in almost every regard, why would you pick one?
    Especially if those things that Mage / Rogue cannot provide can be easily brought by another class?

    Blizzard may look at their internal simulations and say "Spec X is just Y% behind others", yeah but if Spec X doesn't an extremely useful toolkit, people are going to drop it.
    And Blizzard simply dropped the ball on all three Shaman specs as far as PvE is concerned during BfA Beta, that is by no means a secret.

    This entire "bad perception" thing is just one massive halftruth on the side of Blizzard, yes some there some truth to be found there but especially bluepost like just paint this false picture that people were just somehow biased against Shaman in order to realize they were fine.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Razaron View Post
    Shamans have given feedback since alpha on the problems the specs have been suffering with and blizzard have ignored us. Then nearly six months later Ion says shaman community are on #SuicideWatch and now eight months later blizzard remind us we're perfectly viable and it's just the perception of players, well they can fuck right off. Blizzard have stopped listening to it's players, it's clear. When a problem arises it's the players and communities fault and not them for making such a piss poor attempt at class balance in BFA.

    Lets not forget enhancements talent changes in 8.1 counting as a rework!
    Yup...Blizzard's response these days to a broken class is "Here, have some damage! All better now!"
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Well, I defo saw a rise of enh, ele and shadow (and demo locks for some reason) in M+ since 8.1. And they put good nubmers aswell.
    Demo rises because its damage in M+ is insane now, while it has all the utility of Affliction with sadly the exception if an interrupt. Same for raids. I wouldn't be surprised if the spec gets nerfed sooner rather than later.

    The problem of Shamans isn't their DPS; Elemental does pretty good in both dungeons and raids on that front, and Enhancement is not too that bad either. It's just that they have no real utility apart from Reincarnate which is highly niche at best. They have no brez, lust is not unique to them since ages, their AoE stun is on a delay, their defensives are trash tier compared to a mage, DH or rogue, their mobility is mediocre at the very best of times, and Earth Elemental is completely overshadowed by Force of Nature's far shorter cooldown. IMO giving Shamans an extra defensive (say, a strong instant heal), shorter cooldown and duration on earth elemental, and a talent that makes Capacitor Totem instant would go a long way towards helping them in higher M+.

    Now the above only really matters in 15+ keys and Hall of Fame Mythic progression. A competent shaman can do great with any spec in most M+ ranges and in Mythic raids as well, especially Resto which does have a bunch of unique utility. But people tend to judge class balance by what is used by the top 0.1% and copy/paste from there, and that's never going to change.

  20. #20
    What a fucking joke. I can only speak for ele but blizzard went out if its way to kill the class by doing things like putting a CD on fs, having echo and Eb in the same tier, no gust if wind etc. I myself was giving feedback on this in beta. 8 months of leaving the class in a completely broken state and they have the nerve to blame the players? Fuck blizzard, I dont regret letting my sub end this month.
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