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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by mkultra55 View Post
    I'm not sure how you took what I said as being defensive. I think you looked at my first few points then ignored my last paragraph completely. I play both specs in question and have for years. They're my two favorite classes in the game.

    To reiterate I was arguing against the hidden "Utility Tax" that seems to have been placed on Shaman and Pally's. I was pointing out that Mistweaver's are seemingly balanced with high throughout at the expense of utility when that's not really the case. Using Paralyze is just one example. Frankly the only unique thing Shaman have going for them now is SLT. It's borderline OP but is that enough to make their single target healing so crappy or to be weak in spread healing?
    Never once in this thread was MW said to be taxed or that MW does not have utility, I am not sure anyone thinks that. I appreciate the fact that you have played both specs but for someone who is around some of the most skilled MW and a skilled Resto sham (2 of the 3 top 10 US in class and 1 top 10 world overall healers) I would say your points are just not accurate. Shamans have the best stacked healing in the game for starters. As far as 'unique', I am not even sure how to respond to this because there are countless examples of their uniqueness that have been stated by myself already. Shaman ST has been greatly increased since the start of BFA and if you examine logs resto shams can pull very solid ST when they focus on doing so, it is not the best, but it is not 'crappy' (take a look at Fetid post 8.1, Contagion healing on vectis, some resto shams can do some solid ST). I would agree their spread healing is not the best and that was shown in uldir, but if you would look at logs post 8.1 with CBT and High Tide it is not even near as bad now and as others have said on this thread it is par with the other healers now.

    You are being extremely defensive by your lack of evidence to prove your points. You offer minimal examples and your only source of knowledge is you have played for many years. That is not to say that you might have solid knowledge, but numbers don't lie and the numbers do not support everything you have said.

    This was your last paragraph: "I'm harping on Mistweaver because I play both and I find it odd that Mistweaver is always given a pass for higher throughput because of a supposed lack of Utility when it's just not the case. I play my Mistweaver much more now because I'll take the healing style, mobility and throughput plus solid Utility over the Shammy kit in BFA any day."

    I clearly responded to that in my first reply to you. I stated that if you feel that MW is better than shaman than by all means more power to you, but those are all your opinions (some soft facts about comparisons of a defensive and the comparison that they both have a CC, but nothing concrete, no actual examples as I listed in the post you first replied to). Everything I have said has been based on facts when talking about the viability of shamans, not that rsham is the best, but that they are viable and not as bad as you paint the picture of them to be. MW is not given a pass and no one in this thread ever questioned the utility, HPs or mobility of a MW. Yes, their kit if used correctly can top a shamans. Your responses are defensive like someone told you (not me) that MW are all bad at the previously listed.

    Lastly, as I said, none of my post are putting MW down (they actually do the opposite, I defend MW in a different reply), but simply defending the thread title that shamans are viable and just because a class might be more viable does not mean one that is less viable is still not viable.
    Last edited by High Function; 2019-01-08 at 06:04 AM.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    What is wrong with Shaman at the moment?
    As far as Elemental is concerned, its problems are essentially the following:

    1. The talent choices are rubbish. They make precious little difference to the gameplay, and the "utility" ones are not terribly utilised.
    2. The general build is laughably simple. Flame/Earth Shock, Lava Burst and Lightning Bolt. Bloodlust is widely owned and CC is useless.
    3. The spec is still too static, and promotes saving Earth Shock for when you need to move (thus doing something when forced).
    4. The totem class identity that the shaman originally had has been removed, with its replacement essentially pointless throughout PvE.

    So, to summarise then:

    Elemental has boring talents that nobody spends much time bothering with, the spec has absolutely no skill-development or depth, moving encounters can be a real nuisance, and the identity that shamans used to have has been removed.

    On the positive side, its DPS is no longer terrible... Assuming it's a generally static encounter, where you can just stand and cast with a bit of luck for your procs.

  3. #43
    @High Function

    I’m playing Enha, mostly PvP and honestly it does not feel tha good at all. But besides this, the fact that people thinking shammies are bad are ignorant, well, does not help that much: result is we’re being often dumped anyways.

    Moreover, as someone said before for elementals, rotation is quite meh. Having to rely only on SS procs can be fun in the beginning but annoying in the long terms. Damage buff was nice but it should not have required 4 months and it’s obviously not a “class rework” as promised.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezo View Post
    As far as Elemental is concerned, its problems are essentially the following:

    1. The talent choices are rubbish. They make precious little difference to the gameplay, and the "utility" ones are not terribly utilised.
    2. The general build is laughably simple. Flame/Earth Shock, Lava Burst and Lightning Bolt. Bloodlust is widely owned and CC is useless.
    3. The spec is still too static, and promotes saving Earth Shock for when you need to move (thus doing something when forced).
    4. The totem class identity that the shaman originally had has been removed, with its replacement essentially pointless throughout PvE.

    So, to summarise then:

    Elemental has boring talents that nobody spends much time bothering with, the spec has absolutely no skill-development or depth, moving encounters can be a real nuisance, and the identity that shamans used to have has been removed.

    On the positive side, its DPS is no longer terrible... Assuming it's a generally static encounter, where you can just stand and cast with a bit of luck for your procs.
    Everything written here is purely your opinion and should not be taken as a fact.


    Was going to write a wrong reply, but why bother...you guys are obviously going to stay ignorant about the state of elemental.

    Have a good day sir.

    Let's keep the discussion civil shall we? - Infracted
    Last edited by Ragnarocket; 2019-01-08 at 03:48 PM.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezo View Post
    As far as Elemental is concerned, its problems are essentially the following:

    1. The talent choices are rubbish. They make precious little difference to the gameplay, and the "utility" ones are not terribly utilised.
    2. The general build is laughably simple. Flame/Earth Shock, Lava Burst and Lightning Bolt. Bloodlust is widely owned and CC is useless.
    3. The spec is still too static, and promotes saving Earth Shock for when you need to move (thus doing something when forced).
    4. The totem class identity that the shaman originally had has been removed, with its replacement essentially pointless throughout PvE.

    So, to summarise then:

    Elemental has boring talents that nobody spends much time bothering with, the spec has absolutely no skill-development or depth, moving encounters can be a real nuisance, and the identity that shamans used to have has been removed.

    On the positive side, its DPS is no longer terrible... Assuming it's a generally static encounter, where you can just stand and cast with a bit of luck for your procs.
    1. Except for you the 3 viable builds, one for heavy movement fights, and two different ST builds. This point is invalid.
    2.Laughable simple but then you say Ele struggles on movement. The better shaman is the better he will do on these fights. Also SoP build requires a deep knowledge on the fights. AoE stun, Hex and Thunderstorm are useless? Also which spec is 'more complicated'. All specs are now 3 buttons + CD. Second invalid point.
    3. Ele is a turret. Saving Earth Shock and LvB procs for movement and not losing dps by doing it is something a good ele should be able to handle. Seems too hard for you?
    4. Totem Mastery is the best PvE talent for raids. Also you have stun and slow totems. Are you even using them?

    People who don't see the skill ceiling for playing ele are simply to bad to even spot them

  6. #46
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    @Nalaadu and @HCLM - always good to see those who've not been playing very long, don't really get why class design is a problem, and don't grasp the wider concepts being presented in clearly written sentences.

    Gotta love this community.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezo View Post
    @Nalaadu and @HCLM - always good to see those who've not been playing very long, don't really get why class design is a problem, and don't grasp the wider concepts being presented in clearly written sentences.

    Gotta love this community.
    Sure, the class design is a problem.
    Obviously to much changed when going from an artifact weapon -> Azerite, here is to hoping that 8.2 will fix some of that

    But the question at hand in this thread is if they're viable or not.
    And that is in my eyes a community perspective.
    Players look at the top-performers, doing 17-> and up.
    They see, Balance, Blood DK(Monk to some exctent), rogue, mage and havoc DH. Healers is a bit more a mixed bag, but Resto druid and mistweavers sure looks yummy.
    And that's the meta.
    It's the same with any game, a meta is derived, it gives player the perception that nothing else works. Or playing the meta equals some sort of automatic-win-scenario.

    Could a lot of speccs do with a fix to make them more desired/viable, yes, absolutely.
    Id say at the moment the healers category are doing the best (maybe except to resto shamans, all though I like to play with them).

    I think it's a question of letting people see that you can perform.
    I main guardian druid(thanks for vortex I guess), also have a warrior and monk.
    I play m+ on them all up to 15 mostly as a tank.
    But I've always loved feral, so come 8.1 I went feral in my "not playing mythics with the peeps"-time.
    Getting turned down has become a regular thing, but whenever I do get invited, I perform, and the players I play with slowly shifts the perception.

    Might be that changing the perception of the ones doing +10ish and up is harder, so join lower m+s and change them, as when they move up(which of course I hope they do, progress and all), they will remember "Oh yea, ele shaman packs a punch"

  8. #48
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezo View Post
    @Nalaadu and @HCLM - always good to see those who've not been playing very long, don't really get why class design is a problem, and don't grasp the wider concepts being presented in clearly written sentences.

    Gotta love this community.
    Nice assumption there...i have mained ele almost exclusively for 8 years (with the exception of WoD, because that was by far the worst the spec has even been - i quite liked WoDenh tho) and managed to experience virtually every aspect this game has to offer.

    Class design complaints going into BfA is one of the biggest exaggerations i have ever seen. The notion that specs have somehow been ''hard'' and ''complex'' is laughable, since really only ferals, sub rogues and enh shamans, maybe Legion survival could have been considered complex, and that was more often than not a result of weird synergies with trinkets or other items (like enh shamans with spellpower weapons).

    The developers have stated multiple times that they DON'T want specs to have too hard or complex rotations - they want you to pay attention to your surroundings, and that the proper management of movement and defensive skills should be the thing which separates players based on skill.

    And yet, even with ALL the pruning and ''dumbing down'' many people still can't play their class properly.

    People are hailing MoP as the epitome of class design, and yet the number 1 most popular demand at that time was to prune the classes. MoP is my favourite expansion for multiple reasons, but people conviniently don't mention the fact that it lost more then 3 million subs during it's span. TBH, bloated action bars have no place in 2019. game. Especially since the boss encounters have become more diverse and complex.

    I stronly believe players don't actually want hard and complex - that's why Legion survival was called ''clunky'' (and bloated was the word i saw often). That is why many top players (and it is often mentioned in guides) take and recommend passive talents (so it does not bloat your rotation).

    I also believe this whole BfA backclash was over 3 things: loss of artifacts (even tho it was known they won't make it to other expansion), item squish and Legion burnout.
    Last edited by mmoc23033661e0; 2019-01-08 at 03:08 PM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalaadu View Post
    I stronly believe players don't actually want hard and complex - that's what Legion survival was called ''clunky'' (and bloated was the word i saw often). That is why many top players (and it is often mentioned in guides) take and recommend passive talents (so it does not bloat your rotation).
    From what I heard, the issue people had with Legion Survival is that the complexity felt artificial. There was no synergy, just a lot of plates to spin. That might technically be more complex, but it doesn't feel good to have spec mechanics tripping over each other rather than complimenting each other. Of course it didn't help that the damage wasn't really there to reward spinning all those plates.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by High Function View Post
    Never once in this thread was MW said to be taxed or that MW does not have utility, ........
    Holy crap how are you so obtuse? It's Shaman and Pally's that are being taxed. That's what I said. I was using Mistweavers as an example of why this tax is somewhat misguided. My initial responses which just pointing out that much of the Resto Shammy Utility "kit" can be done by a Mistweaver that also brings far higher healing throughput especially on Tanks getting trucked.

    You keep hinting that I'm being defensive when every answer you give screams that you're the one who's agitated.

    Insults aren't necessary. - Infracted
    Last edited by Ragnarocket; 2019-01-08 at 03:51 PM.

  11. #51
    Guys, I'm handing out a few small infractions before this gets worse. Keep the tone civil. Everyone is starting to sound a bit agitated in their tone as you argue your points.

    Let's keep it friendly.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by mkultra55 View Post
    Holy crap how are you so obtuse? It's Shaman and Pally's that are being taxed. That's what I said. I was using Mistweavers as an example of why this tax is somewhat misguided. My initial responses which just pointing out that much of the Resto Shammy Utility "kit" can be done by a Mistweaver that also brings far higher healing throughput especially on Tanks getting trucked.

    You keep hinting that I'm being defensive when every answer you give screams that you're the one who's agitated.
    It is very convenient you have yet to defend any of your stances that you have taken. I laid out clear things that you could easily have given hard facts on or proof and yet you point this out? I think your complaints would be better suited for the Monk Forums has you clearly have a problem with the worlds view on MW.

    There you go again comparing MW and resto shaman by saying "Pointing out that much of the Resto Shammy Utility 'Kit' can be done by a Mistweaver that also brings far higher healing throughput especially on Tanks getting trucked". To start, that is not factually correct post the 8.1 redo of High Tide and CBT combo, but I do not believe that you have even taken a peak at the numbers (yes you are right about tank healing, everyone knows that). I don't think anyone thinks Shamans or pallys are being taxed?? Each class brings uniqueness to raids, albeit hpals have been struggling as of late versus other healers, but I still don't think you are actually having a discussion here. For the 100th time, just because you say MW can do the same utility as a Shaman then say the throughput is far higher does not have ANYTHING to do with this topic of viability. If you want to have a MW versus Shaman discussion than start a new thread. I have time and time again supported MW as being the best mythic plus healer and obviously a fantastic raid heals, but given all of that it does NOT mean that shamans are not viable.

    I am not the one who is agitated, I am just confused on your lack of response to everything I have told you. You are stuck on this idea that I have said MW don't have utility or that I somehow think that shamans utility is better than MW. I am not really sure where you are getting half of these ideas. If you go back to my first post that clearly shows how the shaman utility can be used on bosses that is NOT an attack on MW as you took it to be, but as pointing out to the POINT of this thread of shamans ARE viable. Shamans do not have a tax on them by having a good 'kit', it was purely a lack of spell power and as you can see through NUMBERS the post 8.1 buffs have greatly increased spread healing, AOE healing and ST healing.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by High Function View Post
    It is very convenient you have yet to defend any of your stances that you have taken. I laid out clear things that you could easily have given hard facts on or proof and yet you point this out? I think your complaints would be better suited for the Monk Forums has you clearly have a problem with the worlds view on MW.

    There you go again comparing MW and resto shaman by saying "Pointing out that much of the Resto Shammy Utility 'Kit' can be done by a Mistweaver that also brings far higher healing throughput especially on Tanks getting trucked". To start, that is not factually correct post the 8.1 redo of High Tide and CBT combo, but I do not believe that you have even taken a peak at the numbers (yes you are right about tank healing, everyone knows that). I don't think anyone thinks Shamans or pallys are being taxed??
    The existence of a Utility Tax on Shaman and Pally's has been a point of discussion since launch. Just because you're unaware doesn't negate that fact.

    I've looked at the numbers. Since the 8.1 changes Shaman are only really strong on the usual fights where the raid is stacked most of the time and even then they're not miles ahead. On the other hand the movement and non stacked fights have them dead last for the most part. I won't even talk about high key Mythic Plus where High Tide and CBT aren't going to help keep a Tank alive.
    I am not the one who is agitated, I am just confused on your lack of response to everything I have told you. You are stuck on this idea that I have said MW don't have utility or that I somehow think that shamans utility is better than MW. I am not really sure where you are getting half of these ideas. If you go back to my first post that clearly shows how the shaman utility can be used on bosses that is NOT an attack on MW as you took it to be, but as pointing out to the POINT of this thread of shamans ARE viable. Shamans do not have a tax on them by having a good 'kit', it was purely a lack of spell power and as you can see through NUMBERS the post 8.1 buffs have greatly increased spread healing, AOE healing and ST healing.
    /woosh I wish I hadn't used Mistweaver as an example because that seems to have really screwed you up.
    The numbers certainly don't support your case btw...
    Mythrax-
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...135&dataset=90
    Fetid-
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...128&dataset=90
    Zek-voz-
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...136&dataset=90
    Taloc-
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...144&dataset=90
    Mother-
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...141&dataset=90

    Every healer is viable in Raids because you're part of a team. Some are just more viable across more types of encounters and Mythic Plus really puts a magnifying glass on the issues. I never feel weak on my Mistweaver no matter the content or what I'm asked to do. I can't say that about my Shammy. If you have a different experience more power to you.
    Last edited by mkultra55; 2019-01-09 at 01:16 AM.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezo View Post
    @Nalaadu and @HCLM - always good to see those who've not been playing very long, don't really get why class design is a problem, and don't grasp the wider concepts being presented in clearly written sentences.

    Gotta love this community.
    Always good to see a guy who is spending more time on forum than playing the game.

    I am playing shaman and mage from Wotlk. And currentl iteration of shaman is far more complex and fun to play than any mage spec.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalaadu View Post
    Nice assumption there...i have mained ele almost exclusively for 8 years (with the exception of WoD, because that was by far the worst the spec has even been - i quite liked WoDenh tho) and managed to experience virtually every aspect this game has to offer.
    "Every aspect this game has to offer", eh?

    When you started playing either at the very end of Wrath of the Lich King or start of Cataclysm, when the entire design aspect of the game was fundamentally altered due to the personnel change that happened after Ulduar was released? Ulduar, which was essentially the greatest PvE raid ever designed?

    You are dramatically behind.

    I'm not trying to insult you, I'm simply pointing out that you're talking about raid encounters and class design at a time when the likes of Scott Mercer and Tom Chilton had been replaced by people with very different approaches. For crying out loud, you started the game when the random group system had been created and caused a dramatically different approach to dungeoneering alone.

    The Obsidian Sanctum by Mercer, for example, was extraordinary design that set up player choice in a raid encounter that scaled through four difficulties that didn't need LFR/Normal/Heroic and Mythic. And despite the problems with laughable death knight scaling, class design saw things like Arms warriors in PvP that could actually kill mages if they were good players who used the right talents.

    You're free to believe whatever you want. Just take my word for it that you're nowhere near knowledgeable enough about how the game was designed prior to you starting. Essentially, the design teams were changed around early 2009 and the game has been fundamentally different since then.

    Quote Originally Posted by HCLM View Post
    And currentl iteration of shaman is far more complex and fun to play than any mage spec.
    It's not complex.

    At all.

    Practically nothing is.

    Depth has almost been entirely removed from class design where talent choices are meaningless, or PvE encounters where you get an in-game book telling you what to do.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezo View Post
    @Nalaadu and @HCLM - always good to see those who've not been playing very long, don't really get why class design is a problem, and don't grasp the wider concepts being presented in clearly written sentences.

    Gotta love this community.
    It's amazing that low post accounts flood in here to tell everyone shaman are fine when we are not even in the new tier.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by HCLM View Post
    1. Except for you the 3 viable builds, one for heavy movement fights, and two different ST builds. This point is invalid.
    2.Laughable simple but then you say Ele struggles on movement. The better shaman is the better he will do on these fights. Also SoP build requires a deep knowledge on the fights. AoE stun, Hex and Thunderstorm are useless? Also which spec is 'more complicated'. All specs are now 3 buttons + CD. Second invalid point.
    3. Ele is a turret. Saving Earth Shock and LvB procs for movement and not losing dps by doing it is something a good ele should be able to handle. Seems too hard for you?
    4. Totem Mastery is the best PvE talent for raids. Also you have stun and slow totems. Are you even using them?

    People who don't see the skill ceiling for playing ele are simply to bad to even spot them
    Because somehow there is skill involved in not clicking a button that lights up because we have no answers for movement. Meanwhile almost every other caster has ways to deal with movement and will do equal or greater dps then ele.
    "All that said, the fiery partisan passion that wells up in my heart watching this, it's a Herculean task trying to tamp it down"-Dacien

    Never forget that Trump supporters feel "fiery partisan passion" when an accused rapist is being forced onto the Supreme court. Deplorable to the end.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucks01 View Post
    It's amazing that low post account flood in here to tell everyone shaman are fine.
    Low post counts don't necessarily equate to inexperience. My post count is pretty low, but I've been playing since TBC and have been playing a shaman since mid-wrath.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    Low post counts don't necessarily equate to inexperience. My post count is pretty low, but I've been playing since TBC and have been playing a shaman since mid-wrath.
    Sure, but I've seen a lot of post going back to the start of BfA claiming that shaman were in a great spot when everyone could see that they were not. Now we got a nice ST bump, or so it seems because for the most part people are simply zerging a raid that is about to be done and I see a flood of low post accounts telling everyone that shaman fine, when we have no clue what it will look like in the next raid.
    "All that said, the fiery partisan passion that wells up in my heart watching this, it's a Herculean task trying to tamp it down"-Dacien

    Never forget that Trump supporters feel "fiery partisan passion" when an accused rapist is being forced onto the Supreme court. Deplorable to the end.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    Low post counts don't necessarily equate to inexperience.
    Typically, they do.

    The general community that now inhabits World of Warcraft is vastly different to the one that played the game pre-Cataclysm. As a result, you get commentary like that I received from people with absolutely no experience of a game that was dramatically different in its design intent.

    Hence, and sadly, you end up with "corrections" from young players that don't understand how to logically assess anything. Like this comment, from @HCLM:

    "Laughable simple but then you say Ele struggles on movement. The better shaman is the better he will do on these fights".

    It's utterly missing the point that was made, despite the fact it was mentioned; namely, that the Elemental shaman isn't in control of instant casts when he has to move in an encounter, thus can be badly punished in a way that he can't do anything about.

    But hey. Cast Frost Shock with its less than half of your spell power. Epic deeps.

    And this approach continues. This comment, from the same poster (whose general grasp of how to write properly isn't great, making it clear that he's young), implies the same things:

    "Saving Earth Shock and LvB procs for movement and not losing dps by doing it is something a good ele should be able to handle. Seems too hard for you?"

    You. Are. Losing. DPS. By. Doing. This.

    And why?

    Because holding off your Earth Shock or Lava Burst procs means that you're removing the chance of it happening again once you've completed it. This is particularly important if you take a talent such as Aftershock in order to help yourself with the movement that you, as a player, are not in control of.

    So that's the world we now live in. Younger players, who've been at this game for a few years, are trying to tell those who've played the original versions what's going on from the fundamental design perspective and suggest, exclusively, that it's the players who are the problem. Their inability to fairly appreciate what's being argued, particularly if it's specific or nuanced, then prompts an ignorant block of poorly-thought gibberish that doesn't even grasp what the complaint literally is.

    When this fact is accompanied by infractions, well... You start to appreciate why those who do understand your commentary just give up, and move on.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezo View Post
    Typically, they do.

    The general community that now inhabits World of Warcraft is vastly different to the one that played the game pre-Cataclysm. As a result, you get commentary like that I received from people with absolutely no experience of a game that was dramatically different in its design intent.

    Hence, and sadly, you end up with "corrections" from young players that don't understand how to logically assess anything. Like this comment, from @HCLM:

    "Laughable simple but then you say Ele struggles on movement. The better shaman is the better he will do on these fights".

    It's utterly missing the point that was made, despite the fact it was mentioned; namely, that the Elemental shaman isn't in control of instant casts when he has to move in an encounter, thus can be badly punished in a way that he can't do anything about.

    But hey. Cast Frost Shock with its less than half of your spell power. Epic deeps.

    And this approach continues. This comment, from the same poster (whose general grasp of how to write properly isn't great, making it clear that he's young), implies the same things:

    "Saving Earth Shock and LvB procs for movement and not losing dps by doing it is something a good ele should be able to handle. Seems too hard for you?"

    You. Are. Losing. DPS. By. Doing. This.

    And why?

    Because holding off your Earth Shock or Lava Burst procs means that you're removing the chance of it happening again once you've completed it. This is particularly important if you take a talent such as Aftershock in order to help yourself with the movement that you, as a player, are not in control of.

    So that's the world we now live in. Younger players, who've been at this game for a few years, are trying to tell those who've played the original versions what's going on from the fundamental design perspective and suggest, exclusively, that it's the players who are the problem. Their inability to fairly appreciate what's being argued, particularly if it's specific or nuanced, then prompts an ignorant block of poorly-thought gibberish that doesn't even grasp what the complaint literally is.

    When this fact is accompanied by infractions, well... You start to appreciate why those who do understand your commentary just give up, and move on.
    No, you won't lose dps if you are doing it properly. That is why you don't use ES on 60MS. And that is why you don't use LvB if there is movement shortly. You can play around movement.

    And from when the post counter on this forum, is equall to skill. Most people here who have 1k+ posts struggle on HC

    Ele is currently the best ST and AoE range spec in the game. If you don't like how the rotation or talents look like it is only because you don't like them, it does not mean they are bad. Most of the Legion kids liked shaman only because they could spam FS and simulate a dot class which is no longer valid playstyle.

    BTW. Method and Limit players on Streams are saying Ele will be at least good in the newt tier. But 1k posters here are most likely better than then at this game, right?
    Last edited by HCLM; 2019-01-09 at 03:59 PM.

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