Shamans are perfectly viable.

[Kalisandra]

Now the above only really matters in 15+ keys and Hall of Fame Mythic progression. A competent shaman can do great with any spec in most M+ ranges and in Mythic raids as well, especially Resto which does have a bunch of unique utility. But people tend to judge class balance by what is used by the top 0.1% and copy/paste from there, and that's never going to change.

The problem Resto has it that while it has lots of great utility for m+ and PvP (not so much in raids), it's cooldowns were nerfed in strength, and it takes a fair bit of skill to use the utility right. Thus while Resto is still very strong in the hands of great players, for most players it's not that great, and they find going to a class that simply has more raw throughput gives them better results.

It doesn't help that in raids, Resto's mastery generally doesn't do a damned thing unless all the other healers are dead, and it's not strong enough (especially as most players will gear away from it) to save the raid at that point unless the fight is almost over. It is nice when you can do that, of course, but usually it doesn't work - not least because by the time the other healers are all dead, most of the DPS is too, so you're getting chased by adds, fire, and all that, and mobile healing isn't a Shaman's strongest point (hope you saved Spiritwalker's Grace).

[HCLM]

Ele is trash and was "fixed" with a brain dead damage buff. Class still feels like shit.

And why even bring up vanilla? Everyone knows what a broken mess classes were. You would think after 14 years they would do better.

Finally, the new raid is not even out yet. Lets see what Ele does in new content and not faceroll "zerg" content. Because they still lack movement and Defensives.

And why exactly ele feels shit to you? I have much better time playing Ele than my Mage. Ele is more fun, have better balanced talents, rotation is far more enjoyable, and Ele has nice synergy in their kit, on top of the great animations. If you want to have fs off cooldown to simulate some dot class with instagram lvb go play shadow or afli. FS off cooldown was horrible.

Ele don't lack defensives BTW.

The problem Resto has it that while it has lots of great utility for m+ and PvP (not so much in raids), it's cooldowns were nerfed in strength, and it takes a fair bit of skill to use the utility right. Thus while Resto is still very strong in the hands of great players, for most players it's not that great, and they find going to a class that simply has more raw throughput gives them better results.

It doesn't help that in raids, Resto's mastery generally doesn't do a damned thing unless all the other healers are dead, and it's not strong enough (especially as most players will gear away from it) to save the raid at that point unless the fight is almost over. It is nice when you can do that, of course, but usually it doesn't work - not least because by the time the other healers are all dead, most of the DPS is too, so you're getting chased by adds, fire, and all that, and mobile healing isn't a Shaman's strongest point (hope you saved Spiritwalker's Grace).

Resto was only bad in Uldir because it had many fights where people were spread. After recent changes Resto is even great on those 'not favourable' fights. In the next tier we will be back to having at least one resto sham in group.

[High Function]

The problem Resto has it that while it has lots of great utility for m+ and PvP (not so much in raids), it's cooldowns were nerfed in strength, and it takes a fair bit of skill to use the utility right. Thus while Resto is still very strong in the hands of great players, for most players it's not that great, and they find going to a class that simply has more raw throughput gives them better results.

It doesn't help that in raids, Resto's mastery generally doesn't do a damned thing unless all the other healers are dead, and it's not strong enough (especially as most players will gear away from it) to save the raid at that point unless the fight is almost over. It is nice when you can do that, of course, but usually it doesn't work - not least because by the time the other healers are all dead, most of the DPS is too, so you're getting chased by adds, fire, and all that, and mobile healing isn't a Shaman's strongest point (hope you saved Spiritwalker's Grace).

Almost everything you have said in this post is not accurate in terms of raids.

For one, shaman mastery excelles when healing matters most, progression. It might not be as clear cut as other classes mastery, but many many times progression kills come down to a few players left and having the ability to have your strongest heals/life saving heals when the raid needs it most which happens every tier. As I would think both of us would agree progressing through a boss tends to mean the average player health remaining through a fight is lower than the average player health remaining on farm bosses, meaning more value in progression from that POV. Shaman healing excels when the raid makes mistakes, and mistakes happen most on progression.

I do agree though for shamans to compete at a pure throughput level versus other healers it requires greater skill than most classes take to perform high throughput numbers. This was at its greatest gap in 8.0 but with the introduction of High Tide revamp in pair with CBT that HPS/Throughput gap has shrunk. The skill gap between resto shamans is still there in regards to performance versus the other heals (it is just a smaller gap post 8.1). When you refer that players go to other classes for better results based off 'raw throughput', that does not matter if you are just overhealing the heck out of a boss and I bring this up because CBT is one of the best snipe spells that can really push numbers if paired well with High Tide. A person should not base their success as a healer to 'oh look, my raw HPS was 5k higher than the shamans, but his overhealing was lower so he actually had actual healing 1k higher than mine'.

Now this is the part I do not understand the most, saying that shaman utility is not good for raids (The boss examples usually translate over most raid tiers, not just uldir). Only healing class with mass 5 sec stun (good in uldir for Zek, Zul, G huun, Mother). A reliable CC (hex). Windshear, which I believe is the lowest CD interrupt of all healers. They have arguably one of the strongest defensives which is 40% for 8 seconds. Ghost wolf. Tremor totem can prevent fear on g huun and zul. It can save the raid especially on mythic zul if the shadow boys get through. Spirit walkers grace, the ONLY healing class with a cast on the move ability. Spiritwalkers grace is extremely useful for Mother, Fetid, Vectis (moving across room to soak and dodge while keeping raid up), Zek during surging darkness and G huun during the collapse phase and in reality there will almost always be a point in a fight spiritwalkers grace is useful (don't also forget the fact that the spell in conjunction with Graceful spirit is on a 60 sec CD with 20% movement speed inc and can be activated mid cast). And although this does not purely fall under utility, but shaman stack healing is 2nd to none regardless of which raid it is.

Last side note, the only CDs that took a nerf (legion to BFA) were ascendance and healing tide ( healling tide bc the loss in the increased healing per tick from the artifact weapon). I will admit losing AG hurt and the gutting to asednance hurt, but I would believe the Legion ascendance would still be beat now by High Tide 8.1
Not to mention Spirit link is still one of the strongest CDS in the game and earthen shield is one of the top end stack CDs on a short CD.

Your points are extremely exaggerated in all, but your thoughts on skill gap is your most accurate assessment, although your definition of 'success' by pure HPS/throughout is not something a healer should strive for or base their success off of. Resto shamans have their flaws, but not to the degree you are selling them.

[Drusin]

And why exactly ele feels shit to you?

How a class feels to play is a matter of personal preference. Nearly pointless to even consider it a factor unless you see an overwhelmingly large amount of people saying it.

[kosajk]

How a class feels to play is a matter of personal preference. Nearly pointless to even consider it a factor unless you see an overwhelmingly large amount of people saying it.

well im for sure saying it "_"

[Deleted]

I feel like a lot of people are still sour from 8.0.
I can only really speak from an ele point of view, since I haven't really healed since 8.1 started and only done one m+ as enhance.

Ele is pretty good right now. AoE Dmg is insane, short burst as well as sustained. I dare to say no other class can do the same aoe as an ele at 5+ mobs. Single target is very good too, unless you have to move a lot but that holds true for most of the casters.
Utility is decent enough to compete with other classes easily. You have:

- aoe stun
- range interrupt with shortest cd ingame
- aoe slow on a gcd
- aoe knockdown once for each earthquake
- bloodlust
- thunderstorm for knockback (not as good as Monk ring, but still good)
- earth elemental, esp. as primal it is pretty tanky, much more tankier than boomkin trees
- purge
- hex
- defensive cooldowns are good (astral shift, primal earth elemental defensive, nature's guardian)

So some of you are really telling it worse than it actually is.

[mkultra55]

.............
Now this is the part I do not understand the most, saying that shaman utility is not good for raids (The boss examples usually translate over most raid tiers, not just uldir). Only healing class with mass 5 sec stun.

Mistweaver has Leg Sweep which is easier to use (though not ranged)

A reliable CC (hex).

Mistweaver has a far better CC in Paralyze

They have arguably one of the strongest defensives which is 40% for 8 seconds.

Misweaver has Brew plus Dampen/Diffuse Brew is only 20% but also increases health by 20% for the duration so it's similar.

Ghost wolf.

Roll and Transcendance are far better. Now add in Tiger's Lust.

I'm harping on Mistweaver because I play both and I find it odd that Mistweaver is always given a pass for higher throughput because of a supposed lack of Utility when it's just not the case. I play my Mistweaver much more now because I'll take the healing style, mobility and throughput plus solid Utility over the Shammy kit in BFA any day.

[High Function]

Mistweaver has Leg Sweep which is easier to use (though not ranged)

Mistweaver has a far better CC in Paralyze

Misweaver has Brew plus Dampen/Diffuse Brew is only 20% but also increases health by 20% for the duration so it's similar.

Roll and Transcendance are far better. Now add in Tiger's Lust.

I'm harping on Mistweaver because I play both and I find it odd that Mistweaver is always given a pass for higher throughput because of a supposed lack of Utility when it's just not the case. I play my Mistweaver much more now because I'll take the healing style, mobility and throughput plus solid Utility over the Shammy kit in BFA any day.

Just as the OP of the post I replied to did, you are taking things to the extreme. He stated that shamans do not have good utility for raid. Not once was utility compared to be better than other classes except spiritwalkers grace since it is unique. You seem extremely defensive when you say "Mistweaver has a far better CC in Paralyze", all I said is that they have a CC which is Hex. Again you are taking it to the extreme with comparisons that were not made. One could argue paralyze has to be 20 yards while hex is at 30 yards. Not sure how paralyze is 'far better' than Hex, in mythic plus sure, but raid I am not sure.

I do not believe that roll or transcendence were ever brought up and if this is to counter spiritwalkers grace, I do not know a single healer that would not take spiritwalkers grace in a heartbeat. From a pure defensive POV Astral Shift and dampen/diffuse are similar as you said, but again you seem defensive since my post said it is one of the best defenses. Can two things not both be 'one of the best'?

I do not think that anyone here or my post said that MW does not take skill? It takes a great amount of skill to perform any class well. MW is never given a pass and I think everyone knows they dominate Mythic plus and in the right hands can dominate raids. I personally play with a top 10 world mythic raider and mythic plus MW and another top tier MW who writes for Peak of Serenity.

My first post when referring to pure hps/throughput is mostly in reference to holy priest/disc which have some fantastic throughput. If you reread my post you see that I explain comparing pure throughput is pointless if those heals are just overhealing.

I also believe you are assuming that I said I would take Shammy>all classes. If everyone played pure off what has the 'highest' numbers than everyone would be a holy/disc priest, which is just not the case (look at post 8.1 number too, there are some fights sham have the highest HPS from the new High Tide/CBT combo). If you are saying you prefer MW because you enjoy the playstyle than more power to you, but to completely dismiss resto sham on the grounds you are stating is not a factual argument.

- - - Updated - - -

I feel like a lot of people are still sour from 8.0.
I can only really speak from an ele point of view, since I haven't really healed since 8.1 started and only done one m+ as enhance.

Ele is pretty good right now. AoE Dmg is insane, short burst as well as sustained. I dare to say no other class can do the same aoe as an ele at 5+ mobs. Single target is very good too, unless you have to move a lot but that holds true for most of the casters.
Utility is decent enough to compete with other classes easily. You have:

- aoe stun
- range interrupt with shortest cd ingame
- aoe slow on a gcd
- aoe knockdown once for each earthquake
- bloodlust
- thunderstorm for knockback (not as good as Monk ring, but still good)
- earth elemental, esp. as primal it is pretty tanky, much more tankier than boomkin trees
- purge
- hex
- defensive cooldowns are good (astral shift, primal earth elemental defensive, nature's guardian)

So some of you are really telling it worse than it actually is.

Yes, yes, yes. I think most of the replies here are coming from players that either just read what early 8.0 was for ele and never actually tested the waters themselves or they do not understand how to use the tools shamans have in a correct way now. Just playing a class for a week and doing one raid and one mythic plus does not give you credit to be a know it all of a class.

Ele has one of the best AOE abilities in earthquake, there is not max amount of targets it can hit, which allows a group to do massive pulls if they need to. I know other classes have similar spells, but not in the way RNG can allow 3-4 EQ to go off and if you add the storm elemental you can pull 150k plus on big trash mobs. Not to mention the mini stun as said by poster.

Just because a class is not the top, does not mean it is not a good option.

[Unholyground]

Thankfully the rest of the expansion we paid for is coming in 8.2 with the full heart of azeroth rework for each class/spec sometime in like august.

[chiddie]

@High Function

I understand Your pow, but you are seeing things quite from the hardcore side of the barricade.

When it comes to normal people playing in normal guilds or even in solo, well, the perspective is different and is nearer to the blue quote “omg a useless shaman thanks but no”.

[Kralljin]

Not sure how paralyze is 'far better' than Hex, in mythic plus sure, but raid I am not sure.

Anything related to hard CC is next to irrelevant in a raiding scenario, you have so much possible CC flying around even in a 10man raid that is just irrelevant who the better CC has.

Even in M+ stuff hard CC barely matters, sole reaons why it might currently seem attractive is due the Infested Affix, in the grand scheme of things however not that important.
Even there the difference is insignificant, at best Paralyze another soft interrupt which also is not that relevant, no one takes MW over Resto due Paralyze.

Hard CC in PvE lost relevance over a decade ago, only place to seriously argue about is PvP and i do not believe this is a PvP related discussion.

Arguing whether Hex or Paralyze is better in PvE just distracts from actual problems.

[r3gul8r]

My shaman (enhance/ele) puts out great numbers in raids and M+. I don't see the issue.

Shamans feel fine. Enhance does rely on a lot of RNG procs though to put out chart topping in most cases.

[High Function]

Anything related to hard CC is next to irrelevant in a raiding scenario, you have so much possible CC flying around even in a 10man raid that is just irrelevant who the better CC has.

Even in M+ stuff hard CC barely matters, sole reaons why it might currently seem attractive is due the Infested Affix, in the grand scheme of things however not that important.
Even there the difference is insignificant, at best Paralyze another soft interrupt which also is not that relevant, no one takes MW over Resto due Paralyze.

Hard CC in PvE lost relevance over a decade ago, only place to seriously argue about is PvP and i do not believe this is a PvP related discussion.

Arguing whether Hex or Paralyze is better in PvE just distracts from actual problems.

I agree that comparing CCs is very minuscule as I was only bringing up Hex in response to my very first post answering if shamans have utility. I simply was stating in the post that you quoted a response in the poster saying paralyze is far better than Hex. As you said in raids there are always DPS that can CC and a large amount of CC available.

I would disagree some with you about mythic plus as an instant CC is better than a 1.5 sec cast, it can be the difference of a wipe in a plus or not if things get crazy and you need a fast CC on a free casting mob. Again, this is very minuscule, but as you said no one is going to take a MW over Rsham bc of Hex or Paralyze.

- - - Updated - - -

@High Function

I understand Your pow, but you are seeing things quite from the hardcore side of the barricade.

When it comes to normal people playing in normal guilds or even in solo, well, the perspective is different and is nearer to the blue quote “omg a useless shaman thanks but no”.

I do not think that having basic knowledge of a class is on the hardcore side. If a guild or a player or a pug seeing a Shaman automatically thinks "omg a useless shaman thanks but no" than that shows their own ignorance. I am not sure if you are speaking to ele, enh or resto but post 8.1 ele and resto are in a really good spot.

If you are speaking to my thoughts on skill gap between other shamans where there is a major fall off from a great shaman and a not good shaman as I said in my first post that gap has shrunk for ele from 8.0 to 8.1 and some for resto.
I think you are doing a disservice that a normal ele player does not know this: "60 Maelstorm? Cast EQ on packs, keep flame on CD, cast lava burst procs, cast CL on mobs for 3 plus, use Stormkeeper on big packs, cast your storm elemental (wait for it to buff than press eye of the storm) all of that can be learned and way more in depth on stormearthandlava in 2 minutes.

My thoughts from that post on this topic of skill gap, "I do agree though for shamans to compete at a pure throughput level versus other healers it requires greater skill than most classes take to perform high throughput numbers. This was at its greatest gap in 8.0 but with the introduction of High Tide revamp in pair with CBT that HPS/Throughput gap has shrunk. The skill gap between resto shamans is still there in regards to performance versus the other heals (it is just a smaller gap post 8.1). When you refer that players go to other classes for better results based off 'raw throughput', that does not matter if you are just overhealing the heck out of a boss and I bring this up because CBT is one of the best snipe spells that can really push numbers if paired well with High Tide. A person should not base their success as a healer to 'oh look, my raw HPS was 5k higher than the shamans, but his overhealing was lower so he actually had actual healing 1k higher than mine'."

I think it is also important to go back to the OPs topic, "shamans are perfectly viable". Shamans are viable and as I and others have said the problems that shamans have are being exaggerated as a whole, even for the most normal of players.

- - - Updated - - -

My shaman (enhance/ele) puts out great numbers in raids and M+. I don't see the issue.

Shamans feel fine. Enhance does rely on a lot of RNG procs though to put out chart topping in most cases.

In addition to all my previous posts thought I would add this to this post. Ele shaman was just in on the fastest done 23 keystone in the world . Only 4 have been done and they were only over by 7 min, others three were 15 minutes plus over.

[RuneDK]

They may be fine but they are fucking boring.

But at least all other classes are also boring so nobody has an advantage.

yup...it just depends on what type of boredom fits your style for this expansion.

[Kyphael]

Yeah and Ray Charles would have been perfectly viable to pass a vision test. Doesn't make it true if you say it anymore than Blizzard saying Shamans are ok and players are the problem. If the tool kit's broke, then you're just spouting diarrhea out the mouth.

[mkultra55]

......... You seem extremely defensive when you say "Mistweaver has a far better CC in Paralyze", all I said is that they have a CC which is Hex. Again you are taking it to the extreme with comparisons that were not made. One could argue paralyze has to be 20 yards while hex is at 30 yards. Not sure how paralyze is 'far better' than Hex, in mythic plus sure, but raid I am not sure.

...................

I'm not sure how you took what I said as being defensive. I think you looked at my first few points then ignored my last paragraph completely. I play both specs in question and have for years. They're my two favorite classes in the game.

To reiterate I was arguing against the hidden "Utility Tax" that seems to have been placed on Shaman and Pally's. I was pointing out that Mistweaver's are seemingly balanced with high throughout at the expense of utility when that's not really the case. Using Paralyze is just one example. Frankly the only unique thing Shaman have going for them now is SLT. It's borderline OP but is that enough to make their single target healing so crappy or to be weak in spread healing?

[High Function]

I'm not sure how you took what I said as being defensive. I think you looked at my first few points then ignored my last paragraph completely. I play both specs in question and have for years. They're my two favorite classes in the game.

To reiterate I was arguing against the hidden "Utility Tax" that seems to have been placed on Shaman and Pally's. I was pointing out that Mistweaver's are seemingly balanced with high throughout at the expense of utility when that's not really the case. Using Paralyze is just one example. Frankly the only unique thing Shaman have going for them now is SLT. It's borderline OP but is that enough to make their single target healing so crappy or to be weak in spread healing?

Never once in this thread was MW said to be taxed or that MW does not have utility, I am not sure anyone thinks that. I appreciate the fact that you have played both specs but for someone who is around some of the most skilled MW and a skilled Resto sham (2 of the 3 top 10 US in class and 1 top 10 world overall healers) I would say your points are just not accurate. Shamans have the best stacked healing in the game for starters. As far as 'unique', I am not even sure how to respond to this because there are countless examples of their uniqueness that have been stated by myself already. Shaman ST has been greatly increased since the start of BFA and if you examine logs resto shams can pull very solid ST when they focus on doing so, it is not the best, but it is not 'crappy' (take a look at Fetid post 8.1, Contagion healing on vectis, some resto shams can do some solid ST). I would agree their spread healing is not the best and that was shown in uldir, but if you would look at logs post 8.1 with CBT and High Tide it is not even near as bad now and as others have said on this thread it is par with the other healers now.

You are being extremely defensive by your lack of evidence to prove your points. You offer minimal examples and your only source of knowledge is you have played for many years. That is not to say that you might have solid knowledge, but numbers don't lie and the numbers do not support everything you have said.

This was your last paragraph: "I'm harping on Mistweaver because I play both and I find it odd that Mistweaver is always given a pass for higher throughput because of a supposed lack of Utility when it's just not the case. I play my Mistweaver much more now because I'll take the healing style, mobility and throughput plus solid Utility over the Shammy kit in BFA any day."

I clearly responded to that in my first reply to you. I stated that if you feel that MW is better than shaman than by all means more power to you, but those are all your opinions (some soft facts about comparisons of a defensive and the comparison that they both have a CC, but nothing concrete, no actual examples as I listed in the post you first replied to). Everything I have said has been based on facts when talking about the viability of shamans, not that rsham is the best, but that they are viable and not as bad as you paint the picture of them to be. MW is not given a pass and no one in this thread ever questioned the utility, HPs or mobility of a MW. Yes, their kit if used correctly can top a shamans. Your responses are defensive like someone told you (not me) that MW are all bad at the previously listed.

Lastly, as I said, none of my post are putting MW down (they actually do the opposite, I defend MW in a different reply), but simply defending the thread title that shamans are viable and just because a class might be more viable does not mean one that is less viable is still not viable.

[Pua]

What is wrong with Shaman at the moment?

As far as Elemental is concerned, its problems are essentially the following:

1. The talent choices are rubbish. They make precious little difference to the gameplay, and the "utility" ones are not terribly utilised.
2. The general build is laughably simple. Flame/Earth Shock, Lava Burst and Lightning Bolt. Bloodlust is widely owned and CC is useless.
3. The spec is still too static, and promotes saving Earth Shock for when you need to move (thus doing something when forced).
4. The totem class identity that the shaman originally had has been removed, with its replacement essentially pointless throughout PvE.

So, to summarise then:

Elemental has boring talents that nobody spends much time bothering with, the spec has absolutely no skill-development or depth, moving encounters can be a real nuisance, and the identity that shamans used to have has been removed.

On the positive side, its DPS is no longer terrible... Assuming it's a generally static encounter, where you can just stand and cast with a bit of luck for your procs.

[chiddie]

@High Function

I’m playing Enha, mostly PvP and honestly it does not feel tha good at all. But besides this, the fact that people thinking shammies are bad are ignorant, well, does not help that much: result is we’re being often dumped anyways.

Moreover, as someone said before for elementals, rotation is quite meh. Having to rely only on SS procs can be fun in the beginning but annoying in the long terms. Damage buff was nice but it should not have required 4 months and it’s obviously not a “class rework” as promised.

[Deleted]

As far as Elemental is concerned, its problems are essentially the following:

1. The talent choices are rubbish. They make precious little difference to the gameplay, and the "utility" ones are not terribly utilised.
2. The general build is laughably simple. Flame/Earth Shock, Lava Burst and Lightning Bolt. Bloodlust is widely owned and CC is useless.
3. The spec is still too static, and promotes saving Earth Shock for when you need to move (thus doing something when forced).
4. The totem class identity that the shaman originally had has been removed, with its replacement essentially pointless throughout PvE.

So, to summarise then:

Elemental has boring talents that nobody spends much time bothering with, the spec has absolutely no skill-development or depth, moving encounters can be a real nuisance, and the identity that shamans used to have has been removed.

On the positive side, its DPS is no longer terrible... Assuming it's a generally static encounter, where you can just stand and cast with a bit of luck for your procs.

Everything written here is purely your opinion and should not be taken as a fact.


Was going to write a wrong reply, but why bother...you guys are obviously going to stay ignorant about the state of elemental.

Have a good day sir.

Let's keep the discussion civil shall we? - Infracted