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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by -aiko- View Post
    It's not really about being a player that dislikes story, the MMO genre just isn't one that supports story to the extent FFXIV is trying to make it. Especially when the main story content contains group content. No matter what they do, the core playerbase will move on and leave the returning players behind. Have you ever tried to find a Duty for old required group dungeons/scenarios? Maybe they've made improvements to this, I don't know, but it was hell when I tried to catch up to play Heavensward. It just isn't friendly for people trying to return to the game.

    Edit: Another problem is that the main scenario quests are also balanced for leveling characters up during the period they come out. So you'll have things like fetch quests that don't actually involve anything story-wise, but were necessary to pace experience gains and leveling. So when a returning player comes back to do MSQs, these fetch quests just feel out of place and are frustrating to have to deal with.
    The fact that FFXIV exists and is as successful as it is disagrees with this statement entirely. SW:ToR is another example of how an MMO can do story well.

    I agree that the older content is sometimes difficult to get a party for, or just a long time in Duty Finder queue, but that's not really a testament to how story doesn't belong in an MMO, it's the same in any other MMO with level appropriate dungeons where the lower level ones just take longer to find parties for. I've done the slog from 1-50 4 times (and the ARR to HW 3 times) and haven't ever had a major problem getting parties through the duty finder. The longest wait times I had were for Castrum Meridianum and Preatorium as a DPS, and the waits then were ~40-50 minutes...which yes is excessive but were also the exception, not the rule, everything else took the normal 10-20 minutes.

    So while I can agree with the sentiment that it isn't friendly to players returning to the game, I just can't agree with that in truth because for players that love and enjoy the story, it's not "unfriendly" it's part of why they're playing this game in the first place.
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  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    SW:ToR is another example of how an MMO can do story well.
    Wasn't SWTOR hevailly criticised for, basically, being a single player game though? I seem to recall that them putting focus on story almost exclusively in their later expansions resulted in little to no group content.

    When it comes down to it though, game story as told by developers is a single player affair. They tell you the events, they show you the cutscenes and they place you into the action. That's very contradictory to wanting to also put players in a living world full of thousands of other players. You can have single player content or group content, not both at the same time. Splitting development across both means they're both half as good as they would otherwise be. That's the main lesson that should really be learned from the early days of SWTOR.

    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post
    I would say if someone really hates the story then clearly they don't want FFXIV they want World of Warcraft or Elder Scrolls Online instead.
    Have you played WoW recently? Since Cata they've also put a lot more emphasis on their narative compared to earlier content where the "story" was a thin veiling over the top of a grind. BFA has put so much emphasis on the story that the game barely even resembles what WoW used to be anymore - It's moving closer and closer to being a game like FF14 by the patch. WoW even forces you to do the story to get important unlocks too now.

    WoW is full of cinematic story lines, cutscenes and character moments right now. With even more set to come when the next raid tier hits. And that's completely shit.

  3. #43
    The Unstoppable Force Eleccybubb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    The fact that FFXIV exists and is as successful as it is disagrees with this statement entirely. SW:ToR is another example of how an MMO can do story well.

    I agree that the older content is sometimes difficult to get a party for, or just a long time in Duty Finder queue, but that's not really a testament to how story doesn't belong in an MMO, it's the same in any other MMO with level appropriate dungeons where the lower level ones just take longer to find parties for. I've done the slog from 1-50 4 times (and the ARR to HW 3 times) and haven't ever had a major problem getting parties through the duty finder. The longest wait times I had were for Castrum Meridianum and Preatorium as a DPS, and the waits then were ~40-50 minutes...which yes is excessive but were also the exception, not the rule, everything else took the normal 10-20 minutes.

    So while I can agree with the sentiment that it isn't friendly to players returning to the game, I just can't agree with that in truth because for players that love and enjoy the story, it's not "unfriendly" it's part of why they're playing this game in the first place.
    To be fair that is why the Trust system is coming in. It'll make a lot of the MSQ content fly by faster due to not having to wait for queues.
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  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Wasn't SWTOR hevailly criticised for, basically, being a single player game though? I seem to recall that them putting focus on story almost exclusively in their later expansions resulted in little to no group content.

    When it comes down to it though, game story as told by developers is a single player affair. They tell you the events, they show you the cutscenes and they place you into the action. That's very contradictory to wanting to also put players in a living world full of thousands of other players. You can have single player content or group content, not both at the same time. Splitting development across both means they're both half as good as they would otherwise be. That's the main lesson that should really be learned from the early days of SWTOR.
    The statement was basically saying story can't work/ doesn't belong in an MMO. I was just bringing examples up that show that MMO games can be successful when story is included. I agree with all of the limitations and shortcomings you pointed out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    To be fair that is why the Trust system is coming in. It'll make a lot of the MSQ content fly by faster due to not having to wait for queues.
    Which is great, IMO, for the old rarely ran dungeons/ trials, but I hope this doesn't cause the experience to turn into basically a single player experience. Grouping is part of the experience and IMO FFXIV does a decent job with how they integrate it.
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  5. #45
    Moderator -aiko-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    You'll be able to run dungeons solo with an NPC party in the next expansion. They did something similar with XI and the Squadron dungeon runs were likely the test work to fine tune it, so that'll help in that regard.
    That's good to hear, they're listening

    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post
    Thats the thing thats always funny about this situation to be honest. FFXIV is a mainlined numbered final fantasy but it feels like a lot of the people that complain about the story want another WoW clone
    That's completely misrepresenting the arguments people have against this. I don't want a WoW clone.

    The thing is, though, at its core FFXIV isn't that much different than other "WoW clones" anyway. Having a great story doesn't make it any less of a traditional MMO, with traditional questing and endgame PVE content. I maintain that if they wanted the game to feel like a core FF with a story, they didn't deliver it well. Don't get me wrong, the story itself is great (I really liked Heavensward) but at the end of the day MSQs involve cookie cutter MMO-style quests and you are frequently taken out of the story when you need to do some FATEs, do side quests, etc to level up.

    And, see, my argument isn't that FFXIV has a dumb story or that I don't want to experience the story. It's that, as a returning player, it's boring. I know, I know, we keep complaining about fetch quests where you just go from point A to point B for no real reason but that's because the MSQs truly are full of them. When you're a player that's caught up, and getting fed these story quests over time in content patches, it's paced perfectly. But you have to understand that for a returning player you have to push through it all at once and it's just not an enjoyable experience.

    Personally i just like that roulettes keep people doing older stuff
    Being incentivized to do older content is great. Getting stuck and being unable to progress for an hour or two because no one is doing the scenario you need is not. Two different things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    The fact that FFXIV exists and is as successful as it is disagrees with this statement entirely. SW:ToR is another example of how an MMO can do story well.
    Well, no. A game can be successful in spite of its flaws (see: World of Warcraft :P) if other elements bring it back up. FFXIV has amazing gameplay, great graphics and art, a great soundtrack, a great story, etc.

    SWTOR is, in my humble opinion, an example of doing a story-driven MMORPG right. They embraced the feeling of having a single-player story. FFXIV is trying to mix them together. I stand by my statement that FFXIV's style of storytelling doesn't fit the kind of MMO gameplay they want to have.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by -aiko- View Post
    Being incentivized to do older content is great. Getting stuck and being unable to progress for an hour or two because no one is doing the scenario you need is not. Two different things.
    How many times does this actually happen though? I've played through the ARR and HW stories three times and the only time the wait was inordinately long (more than ~5-10 minutes longer than a normal dungeon queue) was for Castrum Meridianum and The Praetorium, and they no longer design dungeons that way, so those examples really can't be used as much of an argument anymore since they already acknowledged the problem and fixed it.

    Granted, I obviously can't speak for the experience everyone on every world will have and queue times will vary, but I can't imagine that since you can duty finder across data centers that the wait times would be THAT much different.

    Well, no. A game can be successful in spite of its flaws (see: World of Warcraft :P) if other elements bring it back up. FFXIV has amazing gameplay, great graphics and art, a great soundtrack, a great story, etc.

    SWTOR is, in my humble opinion, an example of doing a story-driven MMORPG right. They embraced the feeling of having a single-player story. FFXIV is trying to mix them together. I stand by my statement that FFXIV's style of storytelling doesn't fit the kind of MMO gameplay they want to have.
    Fair enough. I think SW:ToR did it really well too, but I don't think that was was "right" while FFXIV is doing it "wrong." I enjoy them both for slightly different reasons. I personally think the SW:ToR stories seem a little self contained and inconsequential to the world when compared to how epic the story in FFXIV is. I think the FFXIV story is more sweeping, world effecting, etc... it FEELS more like an epic adventure story with a hero saving the world type thing. SW:ToR doesn't have that same feel, but you do feel very connected to the story, in control of the situation and directed in your adventure.

    And while I respect your opinion, SE is developing and releasing the game they want to have, with the story embedded into the experience the way it is, so I'm a bit confused by your last statement. If the storytelling they're putting into the game doesn't fit the game play they want to have, then why is SE doing it this way with no apparent plans to change it?

    I also bolded your statement saying that it has a great story. Your post and this statement seem a little contradictory, unless I'm misinterpreting something. If I am, please let me know.
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  7. #47
    Moderator -aiko-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I also bolded your statement saying that it has a great story. Your post and this statement seem a little contradictory, unless I'm misinterpreting something. If I am, please let me know.
    Just read my response to dope_danny above.

    I'm not sure how I can put it any other way. I'm not arguing that the story is bad. I'm arguing that MSQs are boring as shit and being forced to do them all to experience any new content is a hurdle I'm not willing to go through despite my desire to play this game (and no, I'm not going to pay Square-Enix to skip their content...I mean what the fuck). Which is also what the original OP was about.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    The statement was basically saying story can't work/ doesn't belong in an MMO. I was just bringing examples up that show that MMO games can be successful when story is included. I agree with all of the limitations and shortcomings you pointed out.
    I'm given to understand the SWTOR was at it's best when it focused more on being KOTOR 3? That being the case, there's a strong argument to be made that it failed as an MMO, but succeded as a single player game. I could be wrong though, I've never actually played it.

    When it comes to getting the balance right though, I think early versions of WoW did it better. Where there's just enough story to give you context for your actions, while helping to slowly build up the world rather than the characters. But WoW did have a cast of characters already established through the RTS series, so there wasn't as much need to have a character focused story.

    It's the character focused nature of FF14's story that's it's downfall. Especially when your character is almost entirely unable to interact with those characters, and is unable to shape the story in any way. In this case, the players avatar is just as powerless as the player and reduced to a spectator in events rather than being an active participant. Much like the player, your character is just watching the cutscene. While that does create interesting character arcs for those around you, it also leaves you feeling disconnected from events.

    That's why I think early WoW's story worked. It wasn't focused on you, nor the people around you. It focused on what was happening around you and what was going on out in the world. It's also why the story telling started to completely fall apart during WoD - The story was now focused on the player, but you had no real agency during it. Trying to tell a character driven story around a character with no personality just doesn't work.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by -aiko- View Post
    Just read my response to dope_danny above.

    I'm not sure how I can put it any other way. I'm not arguing that the story is bad. I'm arguing that MSQs are boring as shit and being forced to do them all to experience any new content is a hurdle I'm not willing to go through despite my desire to play this game (and no, I'm not going to pay Square-Enix to skip their content...I mean what the fuck). Which is also what the original OP was about.
    Fair enough, I do agree that having to slog through the story in order to get access to the content is a bit of a downer. However, I still find a bit odd for someone who does think the MSQ is good, for the MSQ to be the deal breaker. If you like the story that much I'm just not understanding how you can see it as the hurdle that's keeping you from playing the game though I am completely empathetic that it is chock full of boring tasks.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    I'm given to understand the SWTOR was at it's best when it focused more on being KOTOR 3? That being the case, there's a strong argument to be made that it failed as an MMO, but succeded as a single player game. I could be wrong though, I've never actually played it.
    It largely failed as an MMO because the PvE multi-player content was sorely lacking at end game and the level up dungeons were practically worthless, thoygh some did have some cool story elements.

    When it comes to getting the balance right though, I think early versions of WoW did it better. Where there's just enough story to give you context for your actions, while helping to slowly build up the world rather than the characters. But WoW did have a cast of characters already established through the RTS series, so there wasn't as much need to have a character focused story.
    I felt WoW only really started doing story well from Wrath moving forward. Vanilla and TBC weren't BAD, but I think Wrath forward just did it better and WoD, Legion and now BfA, the story is great. IMO.

    It's the character focused nature of FF14's story that's it's downfall. Especially when your character is almost entirely unable to interact with those characters, and is unable to shape the story in any way. In this case, the players avatar is just as powerless as the player and reduced to a spectator in events rather than being an active participant. Much like the player, your character is just watching the cutscene. While that does create interesting character arcs for those around you, it also leaves you feeling disconnected from events.
    We've had this discussion before, and I disagree. The character is absolutely an active participant, just not in most cut scenes but that's completely normal in cut scenes. The examples you gave before (specifically the Lakshmi fight in Ala Mhigo near the end of the Stormblood MSQ), you're still very much actively participating just not in the way YOU want to participate. The story in FFXIV wouldn't move forward without you. Even in single player games that are said to do story right, you're just controlling the character and moving the story forward in the manner the story intends for it to move forward and participate the way the game dictates. FFXIV is no different, except due to it being an MMO there are MMO elements thrown into the story progression like group dungeons and trials.

    That's why I think early WoW's story worked. It wasn't focused on you, nor the people around you. It focused on what was happening around you and what was going on out in the world. It's also why the story telling started to completely fall apart during WoD - The story was now focused on the player, but you had no real agency during it. Trying to tell a character driven story around a character with no personality just doesn't work.
    You and I just seem to have different preferences for enjoyable stories. I prefer character centric story telling, whereas you don't seem to enjoy that.
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  10. #50
    Moderator -aiko-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Fair enough, I do agree that having to slog through the story in order to get access to the content is a bit of a downer. However, I still find a bit odd for someone who does think the MSQ is good, for the MSQ to be the deal breaker. If you like the story that much I'm just not understanding how you can see it as the hurdle that's keeping you from playing the game though I am completely empathetic that it is chock full of boring tasks.
    MSQs =/ Story

    I don't think the MSQs are good. I think the story is good. They aren't mutually exclusive. I could be reading the best book I've ever read, but if I have to stop every two pages to get kicked in the stomach and spat on, I'll probably just stop reading the damn book lol

  11. #51
    Scarab Lord Velshin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    That's why you can buy a story skip to start Stormblood. £18.50 for that and £18.50 for a boost to 60 which is still cheaper in total than a 110 boost in WoW....

    Otherwise the game is a story focused game. Simple as that. However I 100% agree the amount of tedious fetch/breadcrumb story quests in ARR needs fixing.
    Ohh nice! I didn't know that! so you basically can skip and start playing at the Heavensward (my favorite) expansion right?

    very good indeed thanks for the info.

  12. #52
    The Unstoppable Force Eleccybubb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    Ohh nice! I didn't know that! so you basically can skip and start playing at the Heavensward (my favorite) expansion right?

    very good indeed thanks for the info.
    Yeah you can skip to Heavensward too. It's £5 cheaper.
    "Enough expository banter! Now we fight like men! And ladies! And ladies who dress like men! For Gilgamesh...it is morphing time!" Gilgamesh. (Final Fantasy 5)
    I refuse to be a slave of fate! I will be the master of my own future! Shir Gold. (Phantasy Star 2)
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  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by -aiko- View Post
    Have you ever tried to find a Duty for old required group dungeons/scenarios? Maybe they've made improvements to this, I don't know, but it was hell when I tried to catch up to play Heavensward. It just isn't friendly for people trying to return to the game.
    I'm doing it right now on a new character and my queue times, even as dps, are under 10 minutes and people are willing to wait for cutscenes (Even though the mechanic exists to still get into the sealed off area) as well as help new players. Don't really see the problem. Maybe you just got a bad group.

  14. #54
    Scarab Lord Velshin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Yeah you can skip to Heavensward too. It's £5 cheaper.
    Awesome! with the same old character I have or a new brand character? basically I played during the launch of FFXIV finished the realm reborn story and contents and raids (the lvl 50). Then I started doing some of the questline afterward to get Leviathan but then I stopped because most of the quests were annoying and tedious + I have a lot of games to play so didn't have enough time unfortunately.

  15. #55
    The Insane DeltrusDisc's Avatar
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    While it dragged at times, I really loved the story and it's why I always suggest the game to people over WoW - especially if they are currently frustrated with WoW. Anyone who is looking for their first MMO though I pretty much tell them to steer clear of WoW and never play it, it's not where it once was and it's also a LOT of story and content to get through to level up. Not to mention endgame is trash lately.
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  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by -aiko- View Post
    MSQs =/ Story

    I don't think the MSQs are good. I think the story is good. They aren't mutually exclusive. I could be reading the best book I've ever read, but if I have to stop every two pages to get kicked in the stomach and spat on, I'll probably just stop reading the damn book lol
    MSQ is what tells the story though, you don't get to see or experience the story without doing the MSQ. To use your analogy, it sounds like you're willing to read the story, but not willing to turn the pages of the book in order to experience it.

    What I'm getting at is that if you enjoyed the story, having to do the tasks along the way in the MSQ would be a minor hindrance, not a deal breaker.
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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazuli View Post
    Took my ninja through all of the cancerous 2.x patch quests in ARR and got to heavensward, it only took me about 3 weeks of being bored to shit. Eventually I started skipping all dialogue and cutscenes to save time on my days off.
    Congratulations!

    I've tried doing this twice now. I got everything to 50 without too much questing, before most of the patch quest content came in to ARR.

    I remember my guild leader in WoW talked me into trying it again when Heavensward released.
    I quested for a bit, then realized I had a journey. Googled how many quests before I'd be allowed to play an expansion I paid for with friends. . .
    Over 250 quests to catch up to my friends in Heavensward (edited for clarification)

    I quit after a while, never made it.

    Tried again, but quit when a set of dungeon groups(because yay required dungeon content for quest progression) failed and I wasted roughly 4 hours trying to find a group that finished it. (Friend and his company had to help).


    He tried to recruit me again recently, told me you could skip quests. I got excited until he mentioned you had to pay to skip quests. Fook that >_>
    Last edited by Sixnalia; 2019-01-13 at 11:16 PM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Bright-Flower View Post
    Some parts of ARR, including those patches, could really use a pass over to trim the fat.
    I could agree with this.

    ARR was built the way it was because I don't think the game designers truly believed the relaunch would work. When it did, and they had to start talking an expansion, they simply didn't have time to rework the entire quest experience from ARR to work with the expansion model - Now, on the third expansion, many playing the game actually DON'T have the ARR quests done and it would take a very long time for people to catch back up.

    Personally, going through it current during ARR, it wasn't bad.

    But I agree with people going through it now, it's a slog and would take far too long for a new player to catch up.
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  19. #59
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    I just straight up bought the ARR story skip for $18 since I was absolutely not interested in several patches worth of quests. It's not something I am proud of but the ARR quests are dreadful.

    I hear HS content is much, much better but rerolled a DRK so hoping within the next few days I'll find out once he hits 50.
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  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Great catch on that, I'll edit that.

    Regarding the dilemma for sure. It's a flat out loss either way you look at it:

    1) Clean up old content to streamline approach? Tons of dev time
    2) Make story skippable easily? Destroys a lot of charm the game has
    3) Make it unskippable? Alienates new comers, and will become a larger more daunting wall, year over year.

    all 3 options suck.
    I agree with this, but I also think that option 3 is by far worse than option 2, which is the only other viable option. If this was WoW, the community would have lost their minds 20 times over by now if they'd done something similar. Alienating new players is the worst thing you can do, and most people aren't going to pay the $25 for the skip, so the "evil corporation doing it to extract more money" angle this forum is so fond of doesn't really work either.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sixnalia View Post
    Congratulations!

    I've tried doing this twice now. I got everything to 50 without too much questing, before most of the patch quest content came in to ARR.

    I remember my guild leader in WoW talked me into trying it again when Heavensward released.
    I quested for a bit, then realized I had a journey. Googled how many quests before I'd be allowed to play an expansion I paid for. . .
    Over 250 quests.

    I quit after a while, never made it.

    Tried again, but quit when a set of dungeon groups(because yay required dungeon content for quest progression) failed and I wasted roughly 4 hours trying to find a group that finished it. (Friend and his company had to help).


    He tried to recruit me again recently, told me you could skip quests. I got excited until he mentioned you had to pay to skip quests. Fook that >_>
    The amount of filler quests you have to do for the MSQ after the 2.0 quests is exactly 100. The 7th astral era can go suck on a bus tailpipe.

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