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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    First, and I'm being serious, what is the current border policy? And how is it not working? And if you think it's because "people are still crossing illegally" then realize no border in existence, including the Great Wall of China and the Berlin Wall, kept everyone out.

    So what is our current policy and, in your opinion, why isn't is working. Please link some evidence about numbers to back your claims.
    So your position is "the status quo might be flawed but it works well enough"? I keep hearing about how Trump should just be reasonable and actually listen to Democrats who actually have "sensible" suggestions on immigration. I really want someone to lay out what this means.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    What does your plan look like?
    It's not our job to come up with a solution, it's the job of elected officials. This is a bad attempt to pivot.

  3. #203
    The Insane Belize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    I've been posting here for 7 years and I don't think I've ever seen you be nice to anyone or make a post that wasn't just shitting on someone else. You're not in a position to call out other people's character.
    Wouldn't being a raging asshole put me exactly in a position to analyze and point out other people's behavior?

    At any rate, if you've never seen me post something "nice" then you're just proving my point about your segment of the population having blinders on and making shit up.

    No wonder you're always outraged when all you focus on and cherrypick are the negatives.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    So your position is "the status quo might be flawed but it works well enough"? I keep hearing about how Trump should just be reasonable and actually listen to Democrats who actually have "sensible" suggestions on immigration. I really want someone to lay out what this means.
    So what are the issues with the current strategy for border security? Why does it belong on the list of top 10 issues our nation solves, let alone the #1 slot?

  5. #205
    The Unstoppable Force cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    So your position is "the status quo might be flawed but it works well enough"? I keep hearing about how Trump should just be reasonable and actually listen to Democrats who actually have "sensible" suggestions on immigration. I really want someone to lay out what this means.
    No.

    I asked you tell me what the current border policy is right now. And then tell me what's wrong with it. And show me numbers. And then tell me how a wall is going to help. With data.

    So far you're just repeating information that is known to be wrong.
    The less you know, the more you believe.

    Science has promised us nothing and given us everything, faith has promised us everything and given us nothing.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    It's not our job to come up with a solution, it's the job of elected officials. This is a bad attempt to pivot.
    No it isn't. Every bill on the hill is written by wonks hired by each party, not by actual elected officials. The fact that you don't want to tell me what these sensible policies are that you keep talking about suggests you don't actually know yourself.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Let's play a game everybody. Speaker Pelosi is worried that Democrats might start losing voters if Americans begin thinking they don't have a coherent border policy. She's a big WoW player and reads this place all the time so she picks YOU to come up with a coherent immigration strategy to present to President Trump and solve this problem once and for all.

    What does your plan look like?
    How about helping to solve the problems that make those people flee in the first place. You know, actually being a good christian for once and help thy neighbours.

    And how about not adding more onto the pile of shit by, for example, not ignoring every climate scientist. You really think you have a crisis at your border? Thats nothing compared to what is coming in a couple of years.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    No.

    I asked you tell me what the current border policy is right now. And then tell me what's wrong with it. And show me numbers. And then tell me how a wall is going to help. With data.

    So far you're just repeating information that is known to be wrong.
    You replied to my question with a question. That's not fair. Writing up a quick manifesto on your views on such a broad topic should be easy but no one wants to do it for some reason.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    So your position is "the status quo might be flawed but it works well enough"? I keep hearing about how Trump should just be reasonable and actually listen to Democrats who actually have "sensible" suggestions on immigration. I really want someone to lay out what this means.
    Good non-answer. But how else could you support Trump unless you were outraged about something you had zero knowledge about.

    Side note, if you had actually cared about any of these issues, you would not have voted for Trump, who tossed out nothing but bullshit ideas like a "build a wall" or "lock her up". So enjoy what you voted for!
    "All that said, the fiery partisan passion that wells up in my heart watching this, it's a Herculean task trying to tamp it down"-Dacien

    Never forget that Trump supporters feel "fiery partisan passion" when an accused rapist is being forced onto the Supreme court. Deplorable to the end.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    So what are the issues with the current strategy for border security? Why does it belong on the list of top 10 issues our nation solves, let alone the #1 slot?
    Look at that, chalk up another Democrat with no plan.

  11. #211
    The Unstoppable Force cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    No it isn't. Every bill on the hill is written by wonks hired by each party, not by actual elected officials. The fact that you don't want to tell me what these sensible policies are that you keep talking about suggests you don't actually know yourself.
    Again, what is the current border policy, and how is it not working? You have yet to answer that question. I'm happy to come up with ideas, but we need to start from an agreed place - that being the current border policy.

    Look - you reached some interesting common ground yesterday. You and I agreed that if we could "close the border" we could allow all illegal immigrants currently in the United States to apply for citizenship.

    That is HUGE - and I'm not being sarcastic.

    So let's address the border policy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    You replied to my question with a question. That's not fair. Writing up a quick manifesto on your views on such a broad topic should be easy but no one wants to do it for some reason.
    How can we write a border policy if we don't already know what it is. I certainly don't know it. Do you? Do we even have a "border policy"? I'm not trying to bait you. I'm looking for a real solution.
    The less you know, the more you believe.

    Science has promised us nothing and given us everything, faith has promised us everything and given us nothing.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferly View Post
    How about helping to solve the problems that make those people flee in the first place. You know, actually being a good christian for once and help thy neighbours.

    And how about not adding more onto the pile of shit by, for example, not ignoring every climate scientist. You really think you have a crisis at your border? Thats nothing compared to what is coming in a couple of years.
    They flee poverty and danger in Central America. I don't know about can be done about from America's position except throwing money at a problem (which we already do with little effect). That's just counting foreign aid, not counting the billions in remittances sent back from Mexicans in the US.

  13. #213
    The Unstoppable Force cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    They flee poverty and danger in Central America. I don't know about can be done about from America's position except throwing money at a problem (which we already do with little effect). That's just counting foreign aid, not counting the billions in remittances sent back from Mexicans in the US.
    I don't think we can do much to solve the problems that people face in other countries, other than what you suggested. Foreign aid is about all we can do IIRC.
    The less you know, the more you believe.

    Science has promised us nothing and given us everything, faith has promised us everything and given us nothing.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    No it isn't. Every bill on the hill is written by wonks hired by each party, not by actual elected officials. The fact that you don't want to tell me what these sensible policies are that you keep talking about suggests you don't actually know yourself.
    I have opinions, but my opinions aren't authoritative as I'm not discussing with experts and only catching pieces of information from them.

    What would it entail?

    Comprehensive immigration reform of the whole system to streamline the process, cutting down on the amount of time it takes and making it easier to get into and through the system. This includes investments in immigration judges in the short-term to aggressively work through the multi-year backlog on court dates. This includes working with Mexico in particular to figure out ways to quickly process migrants that cross through that country to come to the US, as Mexico can assist with early processing so that there is less for US agents to do.

    Sensible border security - Fencing and vehicle barriers at key areas, but extensive use of electronic monitoring and other technology based solutions that can provide far more accurate and expansive information about border actively while also allowing agents to respond more quickly to issues.

    Addressing the current situation of illegal immigrants in the US - most are Visa overstays, and unfortunately mass deportation isn't a realistic solution. This would include pathways to citizenship for those that haven't violated additional laws in the US in tandem with stricter penalties for additional illegal immigration. This has to be done in tandem with improvements to the immigration and asylum process to ensure that we don't see a return to massive backlogs and the view that illegally immigrating is the easiest way to enter the US. Those with violent criminal histories or drug-related criminal histories absolutely should be deported.

    There's more, but it's hardly as if there aren't suggestions and solutions that can increase border security (which again, is largely a fucking red herring as terrorists don't cross that border and there no greater security risk at the southern border today than there was years ago. Numbers of illegal crossings are half of what they were a few decades ago) while trying to find realistic solutions to the structural issues that have caused the current situation to begin with.

    But again, attempts to do just this have been made. I already linked you the Gang of Eight bill that passed the Senate with bipartisan support, only to be stonewalled by Boehner and Republicans in the House. The continued illegal immigration issues are on the GOP. There have been credible attempts at solutions, and Republicans have blown them up again and again.

    And bonus points because it's relevant: The overwhelming majority of drugs crossing the boarder come through legal points of entry, not the middle of the desert where there isn't a wall. "THE WALL" alone will have little to no impact on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    They flee poverty and danger in Central America. I don't know about can be done about from America's position except throwing money at a problem (which we already do with little effect). That's just counting foreign aid, not counting the billions in remittances sent back from Mexicans in the US.
    Remember, the US is directly responsible for much of the instability in central/southern America. We meddled heavily in the politics of many of these nations for our own benefit, causing instability which has led to the current situation. In part, it's also our mess, and we should be responsible for helping fix it.
    Last edited by Edge-; 2019-01-11 at 07:07 PM.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    How can we write a border policy if we don't already know what it is. I certainly don't know it. Do you? Do we even have a "border policy"? I'm not trying to bait you. I'm looking for a real solution.
    The current policy very generally seems like this:

    It ranges from difficult to relatively easy to get through the border into the US depending on how and where you try to go through. Some areas are well guarded but most are not. People also get smuggled in in various other ways. Some get caught, most do not. Once you get in and away from the border, you are not likely to be deported. If you overstay your visa, you are not likely to be deported. If you are hired by an American company, you are still not likely to be deported.

    If you have kids in the US or brought your kids with you, you just lowered your chances of being deported even more because they either get birthright citizenship or deferred action. Your chances of deportation really only seem to go up exponentially if you commit a felony.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I don't think we can do much to solve the problems that people face in other countries, other than what you suggested. Foreign aid is about all we can do IIRC.
    These countries need to fix themselves. Which some of them might do to a degree. Mexico seems to have a bright future economically.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Remember, the US is directly responsible for much of the instability in central/southern America. We meddled heavily in the politics of many of these nations for our own benefit, causing instability which has led to the current situation. In part, it's also our mess, and we should be responsible for helping fix it.
    Would you consider the war on drugs to be included in the political meddling? Personally I think it's worth separate mention for giving rise to the cartels that contribute heavily to the instability/danger in a manner that would, likely, still exist even without our other meddling.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    They flee poverty and danger in Central America. I don't know about can be done about from America's position except throwing money at a problem (which we already do with little effect). That's just counting foreign aid, not counting the billions in remittances sent back from Mexicans in the US.
    Well, for example you could tackle your opioid crisis. Remove the market for those drug cartels. Your war on drugs has been lost years ago, the problem lies within America. Why do so many people use this shit?

  18. #218
    The Unstoppable Force cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    The current policy very generally seems like this:

    It ranges from difficult to relatively easy to get through the border into the US depending on how and where you try to go through. Some areas are well guarded but most are not. People also get smuggled in in various other ways. Some get caught, most do not. Once you get in and away from the border, you are not likely to be deported. If you overstay your visa, you are not likely to be deported. If you are hired by an American company, you are still not likely to be deported.

    If you have kids in the US or brought your kids with you, you just lowered your chances of being deported even more because they either get birthright citizenship or deferred action. Your chances of deportation really only seem to go up exponentially if you commit a felony.
    Ok. What you are describing are very accurate problems with our immigration overall. And I generally agree with your evaluation about what happens to people if they make it across the border. And we should definitely address those issues.

    But that isn't border policy.

    It was my understanding that Trump's own people have said that southern illegal crossings are at an all time low (I'm linking a google search so you can choose your own media source - I can put in specific links if you'd like, just tell me and I will). So if illegal crossings are at a record low - what is the current problem with our border policy?


    These countries need to fix themselves. Which some of them might do to a degree. Mexico seems to have a bright future economically.
    I didn't know that about Mexico. Interesting.
    The less you know, the more you believe.

    Science has promised us nothing and given us everything, faith has promised us everything and given us nothing.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Look at that, chalk up another Democrat with no plan.
    That's the best retort you have? It's not an actual problem, it's a fake problem conjured to manipulate people like yourself. The reason you're not providing evidence is because there isn't any.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I have opinions, but my opinions aren't authoritative as I'm not discussing with experts and only catching pieces of information from them.

    What would it entail?

    Comprehensive immigration reform of the whole system to streamline the process, cutting down on the amount of time it takes and making it easier to get into and through the system. This includes investments in immigration judges in the short-term to aggressively work through the multi-year backlog on court dates. This includes working with Mexico in particular to figure out ways to quickly process migrants that cross through that country to come to the US, as Mexico can assist with early processing so that there is less for US agents to do.

    Sensible border security - Fencing and vehicle barriers at key areas, but extensive use of electronic monitoring and other technology based solutions that can provide far more accurate and expansive information about border actively while also allowing agents to respond more quickly to issues.

    Addressing the current situation of illegal immigrants in the US - most are Visa overstays, and unfortunately mass deportation isn't a realistic solution. This would include pathways to citizenship for those that haven't violated additional laws in the US in tandem with stricter penalties for additional illegal immigration. This has to be done in tandem with improvements to the immigration and asylum process to ensure that we don't see a return to massive backlogs and the view that illegally immigrating is the easiest way to enter the US. Those with violent criminal histories or drug-related criminal histories absolutely should be deported.

    There's more, but it's hardly as if there aren't suggestions and solutions that can increase border security (which again, is largely a fucking red herring as terrorists don't cross that border and there no greater security risk at the southern border today than there was years ago. Numbers of illegal crossings are half of what they were a few decades ago) while trying to find realistic solutions to the structural issues that have caused the current situation to begin with.

    But again, attempts to do just this have been made. I already linked you the Gang of Eight bill that passed the Senate with bipartisan support, only to be stonewalled by Boehner and Republicans in the House. The continued illegal immigration issues are on the GOP. There have been credible attempts at solutions, and Republicans have blown them up again and again.

    And bonus points because it's relevant: The overwhelming majority of drugs crossing the boarder come through legal points of entry, not the middle of the desert where there isn't a wall. "THE WALL" alone will have little to no impact on that.

    Remember, the US is directly responsible for much of the instability in central/southern America. We meddled heavily in the politics of many of these nations for our own benefit, causing instability which has led to the current situation. In part, it's also our mess, and we should be responsible for helping fix it.
    I agree with all of this except the parts that I bolded. The Gang of Eight bill had enormous problems. I don't think along with many congressional Republicans among others that the bill would have stopped the flow of illegal immigrants. It was also extremely expensive and bloated with a bunch of junk that was unrelated to immigration because that is an unfortunate side of bipartisanship in the US.

    Where drugs come through is neither here nor there. It seems pretty clear that the explicit purpose of the wall is to keep people from coming through, not what they happen to be carrying on their person. Of course, I do support stricter enforcement at legal points of entry but that does seem to be at odds with an expedited legal immigration process at the border to a degree.

    The stuff about the US being at fault for the state of those countries is just Chomskyite drivel as far as I'm concerned. You are radically exaggerating the influence of the US. Those countries are not free and they don't have the basis for free market economies so they struggle with poverty and crime. The US meddled in Chile quite heavily but they adopted the right economic policy so now they resemble something closer to first world Western countries than Latin American ones.
    Last edited by Knadra; 2019-01-11 at 07:20 PM.

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