How I would fix WoW if I was a dev.

[Zenfoldor]

Not qualified to really comment at all, but since asked I'd like to see something like this:

1. Fix reward structure for doing non-relevant content(such as daily heroic dungeons, emissaries,and lfr/normal raids), by adding a long term goal to BFA.
2. Fix class balance and gameplay for lagging classes(not sure how, honestly, but adding gear sets may help)
3. Re-Add unique gear sets from raids(tier sets).
4. Maybe create a similar seasonal gear system for mythic+.
5. Make the raid tier set only work in raids and the mythic+ seasonal set only work in mythic+. Make a new set for each new tier of raid and mythic+(season). Add interesting gameplay mechanics to the sets.

[Deleted]

From what you described, that is more on the tech side of the game. Rather than actual game development. Sure you need those components for a game but what about the actual game itself.

Discussion with people I know who worked in the game industry, there are, at least in their place, game play programmers which actually piece together the actual game itself.

So I find a bit insulting for you to trivalized that type of work as being just scripting work. Which it is. Programming is programming. Regardless of the language used since it is just a tool to work with.

Out of interested, which games you worked since you are in the industry. Just the name of titles you have been involved with.

Only an indie zombie game when I was in uni. The title of which I don't like to give out as the dev team was so small I might as well just dox my self. But I think you can still buy it on steam, my time was voluntary so I get no cash from it.

In uni I quickly worked out 2 things.

1. The games industry several under pays compared to other industry's for engineering talent.

2. Programming games is actually really boring, I can see why being in arts and design is interesting but as programmer you don't really get much control over the direction of the game except pushing back on technical aspects. Building an engine, the renderer and the sound system and the ai + all the tools to develop in it, is fun, the first time but I'm some one who needs constant new challenges or I quickly get bored.

So once I'd got my degree and my honours I used the fact I was taught in c and c++ at uni to land a job in a hardware company as a firmware engineer. Which I belive was the right choice.

And I trivialise it because to me it is trivial. Not all programming languages are the same. That's like comparing a screw driver to a drill. High languages don't need things like managing your own memory, or costing about endianes, or aligning memory for efficacy. Get to scripting and it's interpreted and not Evean compiled. The trade of is it is easier so so you don't need a fully trained programmer to do it (and the cost they charge) and its quicker to impliment things but it's no where near as efficient on a system is low level compiled performance code in say C.

So no its not just a tool, it's a language that sits at different layers of abstraction from binary with more and more helper libraries to do things for you as you go up the stack.

And also at the end of the day. If you don't have artists or designers you have a shit game. If you don't have the core engineers and programmers you don't have a game at all.

And doesn't matter how fancy your dragon modle is, if no ones implemented the directx functions for AA, gauzian blur or the HLSL for giving it depth and shadow. It will still look shit.

[Norome]

I'm gonna add a couple of ideas of my own, possibly a bit inspired by some that have already been mentioned.

1. Servers should be instanced and transparent ingame (so you can join your friends no problem, if they picked a different instance). Everyone should be assigned to a server geographically upon login, to one that is closest to them and possibly with lowest latency. This would also enable much more balanced "instances", not only by total number of players, but also for faction representation.

2. Game has already too many arbitrary meaningless shallow numbers that are used to conveniently compare different players. And since the game seems to be designed around some of them, the unfortunate mindset is to blindly follow them. Therefore, I would reduce or even remove effects of most of them, starting with..

2b. .. Item Level. Should be removed. Gear should instead only have rarity as it is in different rpg games... You have magic items, rare items, epic items, possibly even legendary items. Each is bound to a specific difficulty of content it drops from. Most of the items can drop from anywhere within the difficulty level, specific higher/legendary items can be bound to specific bosses. Replacing gear should be more impactful and players should feel stronger with every upgrade, by slowly becoming "fully epic".
Also reduce the number of stats on items, by possibly only having stamina, primary stat and one secondary (see below for crafting). Primary stats should have direct influence on secondary stats according to spec ratios. Agility could have influence on haste, strength on crit, intellect on mastery.
Instead of item level, character sheets should contain a convenient number that would more closely describe combat capabilities of your gear. Something like damage/healing power, or toughness for tanks. Players should be able to evaluate their gear easier ingame, a not be required to use external tools.
Dps/healing meters should be removed. As said above, these are arbitrary numbers that are used to quantify different players and it is very ofter far from being representative of skill. Instead, encounters should be designed for being more punishing for people who don't adhere to mechanics (and thus can be evaluated without a need of numbers or external tools - dps meter is still an addon) and less punishing for those who do but just miss a cooldown or don't use their snapshot window to maximum efficiency.
Stronger players should also appear stronger visually, especially in combat by having bigger, more juicy, possibly overkill spell animations. To reduce the clutter, players could fade/dim out other players' visuals.
Legendaries might only change specific spells and thus altering gameplay. Ie fireball legendary will add projectiles to a single fireball cast, but each individual fireball will be weaker.

3. Professions should be more impactful. Gear crafting should be the main focus. Each gear class (cloth, leather, ..) should have its own profession, merged with its respective gathering profession (so, Leatherworking would have skinning by default). Useless professions should be merged together and possibly made into secondary professions altogether. If dropped gear had only one secondary (see above), others (including tertiaries) might be added or reforged by crafting.
Possibly even dedicate one or more gear slots that would only be provided by crafting (ie trinkets).
Some of the current crafts could be made into class/racial buffs (ie flasks), some could be more impactful (ie potions).
Most of the items should be salvageable into base materials and reused into new crafts.
Gear/augments could also be provided by spending a weekly capped resource (ie valor points). For players who already collected top gear, same resource could be spent to upgrade it.

4. Flying should be rewarded for finishing the non-instanced game, by exploration and/or finishing all the quests, possibly by adding an additional flying-related questline at the end of that.

[Sansnom]

Only an indie zombie game when I was in uni. The title of which I don't like to give out as the dev team was so small I might as well just dox my self. But I think you can still buy it on steam, my time was voluntary so I get no cash from it.

And I trivialise it because to me it is trivial. Not all programming languages are the same. That's like comparing a screw driver to a drill. High languages don't need things like managing your own memory, or costing about endianes, or aligning memory for efficacy. Get to scripting and it's interpreted and not Evean compiled. The trade of is it is easier so so you don't need a fully trained programmer to do it (and the cost they charge) and its quicker to impliment things but it's no where near as efficient on a system is low level compiled performance code in say C.

So your one and only experience in game development is a university project. And from that experience, you say game development is trivial to you.

Tell me, would you use a drill to unscrew delicate components in your PC or other devices?

[Deleted]

In wrath you could get very good gear via tokens and the three new dungeon at the end had drops that were on par with the earlier raid gear. So i guess you will have to go back further although magisters terrace had epic gear, too and bg pvp weapons were on par with the best raidgear in TBC so i guess you'd have to go back to classic.

I find raids just terribly boring and unfunny, i tried it several times over the years and was happier every time i quit the raid group. Just my opinion but still...
So resticting gear to raids would leave me with nothing to do. The non-raid endgame is far from perfect right now but at least it exists.

Raiding hasn't ever really been fun in and of its self. It's the people you raid with that made it fun.

Imagine If a game came out that was single player and it had wow style raids only with 19 npc's and you as its ultimate challenge. I'd slit my wrists rather than suffer the monotony.

Only so many times I can stand on x. Push the same 3-5 button rotation over and over and over moving from x to moon and moon to triangle and no and then getting to do a soak machanics "omg I can't contain the excitement" if it wasn't for the dick jokes, the swap blaster kills and the funny and embarrassing moments I think I'd get more excitement from fucking my toaster.

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So your one and only experience in game development is a university project. And from that experience, you say game development is trivial to you.

Tell me, would you use a drill to unscrew delicate components in your PC or other devices?

No its trivial because I have 4 years of education in making the tech, 2 years expeiance making it, about 18 freinds in my contacts list who work in the field and CONSTANTLY bitch about it.

And yes it's fucking trivial.
I try to work out how to manage with firmware memory not in production yet with only a few MB space to play with and a poxy little arm processor. Coding pruly in raw c via consol editors such as vim and vi and with only valgrind to debug. That's a fun challenge.

Fucking about with a lua script in unity is trivial.

Also your drill analogy proves my point. C is the screw driver it's for delicate difficult tasks that need skill and patiance.
Scripting in lua or python is the power drill. Does the job quick but can leave a complete fucking mess and any ideot can do it.

Can you make kernal in lua? No
In python? No
In java? No
In c#? No

Do you Evean know what and rtos is? Ever had to code for one of those or make one from scratch. Do you Evean know what it's like to make code that runs without an operating system?

And you want to question what I know about stuff? Right..

What do you do?

[Deleted]

One idea i would implement in the game.

New expansion comes in and you DONT have to level up more levels.
The "questing" would be for developing the new "azerite power system".

But it would be a sandbox questing like the Elders Scrolls: Skyrim.

The map would have "pointers" for you to go and experience a "quest" or a mini dungeon.
You could explore the "points" in the order you would like.

Plenty of points would have great loot and toys...and some points would be hidden to promote a sandbox experience.

[Deleted]

One idea i would implement in the game.

New expansion comes in and you DONT have to level up more levels.
The "questing" would be for developing the new "azerite power system".

But it would be a sandbox questing like the Elders Scrolls: Skyrim.

The map would have "pointers" for you to go and experience a "quest" or a mini dungeon.
You could explore the "points" in the order you would like.

Plenty of points would have great loot and toys...and some points would be hidden to promote a sandbox experience.

Elder scroll online has something like that.

Part of the problem of wow has always been end game is the only game. Once enough people hit max level to tilt the population from those questing to those running end game its never really recovered that openness.

[mianarfan]

nice and great

[Sansnom]

No its trivial because I have 4 years of education in making the tech, 2 years expeiance making it, about 18 freinds in my contacts list who work in the field and CONSTANTLY bitch about it.

And yes it's fucking trivial.

Right. And that gives you all the knowledge of game development.

I try to work out how to manage with firmware memory not in production yet with only a few MB space to play with and a poxy little arm processor. Coding pruly in raw c via consol editors such as vim and vi and with only valgrind to debug. That's a fun challenge.

Fucking about with a lua script in unity is trivial.

Also your drill analogy proves my point. C is the screw driver it's for delicate difficult tasks that need skill and patiance.
Scripting in lua or python is the power drill. Does the job quick but can leave a complete fucking mess and any ideot can do it.

Actually, you are the one who brought up the analogy of a screwdriver and a drill. And your explanation shows your lack of appreciation of other languages, their purpose and usage.

Would you use a screwdriver to drill a hole in a concrete wall? No.

You seem to think that because you code petal to the metal, that makes you a better programmer than others.

Can you make kernal in lua? No
In python? No
In java? No
In c#? No

Do you Evean know what and rtos is? Ever had to code for one of those or make one from scratch. Do you Evean know what it's like to make code that runs without an operating system?

And you want to question what I know about stuff? Right..

What do you do?

Can you make a code that reads and manipulate text in multiple files in 5 min? Can you write code to query and compare data from 100Million+ records in a database?

Different tools. Different requirements. Different challenges. You writing firmware is one type of challenge. Other coders have their challenges. That fact that you think you are superior just because you do not use high level languages and code to the metal is not superior. Different. That is all it is.

I never questioned whether you know your stuff. I question whether you know other people's stuff.

[RoKPaNda]

Weird how the things that make and RPG an RPG are the things that are most frustrating in an RPG, well, according to people that lament the loss of RPGs despite there being a fuckton of them on the market.

Remove titanforged procs.

That's never going to happen at this point. They already dealt with the concerns that Mythic raiders had in Legion, and we were the only ones with a legitimate beef with the system. It's amazing for casuals so it's staying. Once they add something, removing it doesn't work. Look at LFR, they tried to make LFR even shittier in WoD by removing several things from it and look how that trainwreck worked out. It would be the same with TF. Now that the casual masses that keep this game running have experienced TF they wouldn't respond well to it being gone.

[d00mh4cker]

I agree with not being able to get flying - TICK



The outcry of people being forced to pay money to move to new servers would be a bit overwhelming, but Blizzard would make a crapload of money - TICK



So remove progression altogether - definitely will make the game more boring, and people will start leaving the game in droves - FAIL



Titanforging is fake news - I've never seen one.


Can already do that .. 320 gear can be bought with TW tokens, azerite gear with some other tokens - TICK


Gear was never earned in the original game - a few lucky people got some, other people didn't ... earning had nothing to do with it.


So - you want to remove gear altogether ... sounds really boring.


Yet people are still complaining about how hard gear is to get.... amazing isn't it.

Who complains about how hard gear is to get, show me
Azerite power is not progression.
Gear WAS earned. Doesnt matter what u say, its a fact.
Free server changed have been a thing in the past.
Titanforged is a fact.
320 is not high end gear.

Every point you make has no sense to it.

Edit:
What is your theory of what's wrong with wow today?

[Deleted]

Right. And that gives you all the knowledge of game development.



Actually, you are the one who brought up the analogy of a screwdriver and a drill. And your explanation shows your lack of appreciation of other languages, their purpose and usage.

Would you use a screwdriver to drill a hole in a concrete wall? No.

You seem to think that because you code petal to the metal, that makes you a better programmer than others.



Can you make a code that reads and manipulate text in multiple files in 5 min? Can you write code to query and compare data from 100Million+ records in a database?

Different tools. Different requirements. Different challenges. You writing firmware is one type of challenge. Other coders have their challenges. That fact that you think you are superior just because you do not use high level languages and code to the metal is not superior. Different. That is all it is.

I never questioned whether you know your stuff. I question whether you know other people's stuff.

Can you make a code that reads and manipulate text in multiple files in 5 min? Can you write code to query and compare data from 100Million+ records in a database?

yea like do you even know how to program? you can do anything in a lower language that is done in a higher one its just more complicated because less is done for you. butr theres plenty of SQL library's out there for c for data base querying and text file manipulation is programming 101 a 5 year old could do it in C.

do you actually have any idea or experience with any of this or are you just upset because you bought an over priced product that had next to 0 actual development put in because its coming across as the latter.

hell for a start your whole defense is to attack me and my credibility and experience, which is likely (even if it was a dip of the toe and not liking it) a lot more than yours.

yea i lack appreciation for some languages. the fucking mess that java makes on machines should be criminal. and when script kiddies start getting uppity over respect when they cant even tell the stack from the heap its precious.

Other coders have their challenges

yea easier ones.

stop making excuse for blizzard under resourcing this game and shifting a vapid product. i gave the script kiddies the kudos for doing what they could to stitch something new together and praised the artists who are top notch as always but by gad im not gonna place them as equals to real engineers just as i wouldent put my self as equal to the scientists or they guys that write RTL

and if you don't like it go to r/programming and make a bullshit meme and about java issues no one cares about. and see if the garbage collector will clean up hurt feelings.

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Weird how the things that make and RPG an RPG are the things that are most frustrating in an RPG, well, according to people that lament the loss of RPGs despite there being a fuckton of them on the market.



That's never going to happen at this point. They already dealt with the concerns that Mythic raiders had in Legion, and we were the only ones with a legitimate beef with the system. It's amazing for casuals so it's staying. Once they add something, removing it doesn't work. Look at LFR, they tried to make LFR even shittier in WoD by removing several things from it and look how that trainwreck worked out. It would be the same with TF. Now that the casual masses that keep this game running have experienced TF they wouldn't respond well to it being gone.

the frustration and over coming it is what makes the final achievement so sweet.
without it you dont get the full reward feeling of having done something meaningful.

[Soluna]

I'd suggest you change your thread's title to 'How I would completely annihilate WoW if I was a dev'.

[Khandros]

Until the current devs have the actual and necessary knowledge, skills and abilities to balance classes, everything else is moot.

[RoKPaNda]

Can you make a code that reads and manipulate text in multiple files in 5 min? Can you write code to query and compare data from 100Million+ records in a database?

yea like do you even know how to program? you can do anything in a lower language that is done in a higher one its just more complicated because less is done for you. butr theres plenty of SQL library's out there for c for data base querying and text file manipulation is programming 101 a 5 year old could do it in C.

do you actually have any idea or experience with any of this or are you just upset because you bought an over priced product that had next to 0 actual development put in because its coming across as the latter.

hell for a start your whole defense is to attack me and my credibility and experience, which is likely (even if it was a dip of the toe and not liking it) a lot more than yours.

yea i lack appreciation for some languages. the fucking mess that java makes on machines should be criminal. and when script kiddies start getting uppity over respect when they cant even tell the stack from the heap its precious.



yea easier ones.

stop making excuse for blizzard under resourcing this game and shifting a vapid product. i gave the script kiddies the kudos for doing what they could to stitch something new together and praised the artists who are top notch as always but by gad im not gonna place them as equals to real engineers just as i wouldent put my self as equal to the scientists or they guys that write RTL

and if you don't like it go to r/programming and make a bullshit meme and about java issues no one cares about. and see if the garbage collector will clean up hurt feelings.

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the frustration and over coming it is what makes the final achievement so sweet.
without it you dont get the full reward feeling of having done something meaningful.

For you. Not everyone plays games for the same reason. We can pick "frustration" as you put it, or we can pick having the genre be successful. That's about it. And before anyone harps on me about the Souls series being frustrating AND successful, that's more or less the exception that proves the rule.

[Trend]

Can you make a code that reads and manipulate text in multiple files in 5 min? Can you write code to query and compare data from 100Million+ records in a database?

yea like do you even know how to program? you can do anything in a lower language that is done in a higher one its just more complicated because less is done for you. butr theres plenty of SQL library's out there for c for data base querying and text file manipulation is programming 101 a 5 year old could do it in C.

do you actually have any idea or experience with any of this or are you just upset because you bought an over priced product that had next to 0 actual development put in because its coming across as the latter.

hell for a start your whole defense is to attack me and my credibility and experience, which is likely (even if it was a dip of the toe and not liking it) a lot more than yours.

yea i lack appreciation for some languages. the fucking mess that java makes on machines should be criminal. and when script kiddies start getting uppity over respect when they cant even tell the stack from the heap its precious.

You said earlier you have a 4-year degree and 2 years of professional experience. Where I'm at, that would make you one of the very most junior engineers, assuming you were able to get in at all. Yet you communicate like an angst-filled arrogant prick. I don't know if you have any real skill or not, but the way you belittle other disciplines is telling of your professional immaturity and the dubiousness of your boasts.

[Deleted]

For you. Not everyone plays games for the same reason. We can pick "frustration" as you put it, or we can pick having the genre be successful. That's about it. And before anyone harps on me about the Souls series being frustrating AND successful, that's more or less the exception that proves the rule.

most successful games are frustrating.

from mega man to xcom. i dot know a successful game that didn't have the frustration into growth into accomplishment formula except maybe the sims.

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You said earlier you have a 4-year degree and 2 years of professional experience. Where I'm at, that would make you one of the very most junior engineers, assuming you were able to get in at all. Yet you communicate like an angst-filled arrogant prick. I don't know if you have any real skill or not, but the way you belittle other disciplines is telling of your professional immaturity and the dubiousness of your boasts.

2 years in games. 8 years in programming at different levels of the stack in industry.

and i do respect them they do good work, as i said what the dev's managed to do with just lua is about what can be expected. but to claim scripting in lua is anywhere near comparable to coding in C or fortran or god forbid ada, is not only laughable its down right insulting. and to try and excuse blizz not putting proper resources on the expansion project by it. and also as he was using it to ad hominim an argument i don't see why i should bother trying to explain in depth why some languages are harder than others and why not every one can do some of the low level stuff, to some one who probably puts ; at the end of his lines in python.

so you may not like it. but to be completely honest, shove your approval up your arse and whistle Dixie because i don't care for your approval. how i act to the people i don't like i.e this forum and to those i do is obviously going to be different and if that upsets you make a tumbler post or something.

also some other disciplines really need a damn good belittling, because if i have to listen to one more web guy talk on and on about yet another extension to JS like its the most ground breaking thing since the shovel my stack of fucks really will overflow.

[Trend]

so you may not like it. but to be completely honest, shove your approval up your arse and whistle Dixie because i don't care for your approval. how i act to the people i don't like i.e this forum and to those i do is obviously going to be different and if that upsets you make a tumbler post or something.

also some other disciplines really need a damn good belittling, because if i have to listen to one more web guy talk on and on about yet another extension to JS like its the most ground breaking thing since the shovel my stack of fucks really will overflow.

So you spout all your obnoxious bullshit because you don't care what people think? Ok champ, you sound like every other dime-a-dozen shit engineer with a moon sized chip on your shoulder who wouldn't have any possibility of getting a job where I work. I don't give a fuck, this is what ignore lists are for.

[Deleted]

So you spout all your obnoxious bullshit because you don't care what people think? Ok champ, you sound like every other dime-a-dozen shit engineer with a moon sized chip on your shoulder who wouldn't have any possibility of getting a job where I work. I don't give a fuck, this is what ignore lists are for.

that fact you assume i would want to work where you do is interesting and telling of your own caricature flaws. there as something about chips and planks in the bible cant remember the story fully.

what truly amuses me is what exactly you thought to get out of wading in? did you think your self so important or authoritative that it would change anything?

it a question i often ponder when i see things on the internet, did that person really expect to get anything other than shit and does that class as nievity or stupidity?

[RoKPaNda]

most successful games are frustrating.
from mega man to xcom. i dot know a successful game that didn't have the frustration into growth into accomplishment formula except maybe the sims.

You're mistaken I'm afraid. The most successful games are not frustrating in the slightest. You'll also note that as Megaman, xcom, etc progressed they too became more casual. Why? Because that's what does better in the market. I mean, according to the purists something like Arma is a better game than CoD/BF but CoD/BF outsell it by a landslide. Why? Because they appeal to a wider audience by not being frustrating. We're no longer in a day where bosses and enemies have to be exceptionally cheap to make games seem longer due to hardware limitations. The average gamer wants to have fun, not a frustrating experience.

You'll find that those of us that enjoy that ball busting challenge are in an extreme but vocal minority.