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  1. #41
    Because it created some interesting potential for stories. Was it a bad idea in a logical, in-universe way? Of course. Does that actually matter? Of course not. I'm glad they did it. If it irritates you because of the illogic, like an itch you can't scratch, I'm even gladder. Stupid utopian ideas which would fall on their face irl are part of what made Trek Trek. The death of that aspect of the series is partly why contemporary Trek is glossy trash.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by X Amadeus X View Post
    With the announcement of a new Star Trek series centered around Jean Luc Picard arguably the greatest Star Trek Captain ever. There is one glaring flaw with the series never addressed, and no I don't mean the lack of bathrooms

    But the problem is this, I know that the Galaxy Class Starship is a ship of exploration, nevermind the fact it's armed to the teeth, but why the hell are there family members on board?

    They didn't have that on Kirk's ship, so the question begs, who thought it was a good idea to put unenlisted, women and men along with children on Star ship that although was on a peace mission was armed, and routinely sent into harms way along the neutral zone to deal with such conditions as with the Klingons or Romulans or even The Borg
    There's many flaws with Star Trek and I can say that as a huge fan of Star Trek TNG. One thing that always struck me is how naive they are in the future and how hillariously incapable they are at security. Where are the special task forces? Where are the elite military units?

    Anyway, throughout history, families have often come along with their soldiers on their travels or where they are stationed. It's not too strange that the same is the case for the Enterprise.

  3. #43
    I remember when TNG first started up in 1987 and the most shocking thing to me was a Klingon serving on the Enterprise, and NO explanation as to how that happened.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    So there are two answer: "real world" version and "fictional universe" version.

    The Real World Version is that Star Trek TNG, at it's conception stage (which arose as a result of the Box office success of Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home) was a real playground of ideas that Gene Roddenberry played with. At one point he even considered getting rid of the ship and just having long range transporters. That was rejected, but the concept of what "Star Trek" looked like in the years after the movies wasn't clear. In the real world there were a lot of infighting over creative control between Gene Roddenberry (and his infamous lawyer), the studio and the production staff, particularly in season 1 but also season 2. In fact, it was so unclear that until the year "2364" was uttered in the very last episode of TNG Season 1 (the Neutral Zone), it wasn't clear when TNG was taking place. At the time, fans actually thought it was the first decade of the 24th century or the 2310s. Star Trek TNG had no formal continuity, little internal consistency, and no explanation as to "why" for many of the major changes in TNG. Families was one of them. The Klingon Empire being part of the Federation (another TNG Season 1 idea) was another.

    Gene Roddenberry had a lot of ideas about how the 24th century crew would be different than the 23rd century crew, and worked as many as he could into the show while it was under control (unlike the movies, which were out of his control after the first). Production realities and new writers and studio pushback inhibited many of the worser impulses of his. Families stuck around though. The writers were never happy with it, as evidenced when they kept trying to find new roles for Wesley.
    The weird of it is that it wasn't until so many years later I learned about everything you said here being true, I first got wind of it when I got Leonard Nimoy's book, "I am Spock" where he went into detail about the great works behind the series who often got over shadowed or not nearly as much recognition. I also heard afterwards from others that Roddenberry was an amazing writer, but he wasn't as flawless or as responsible for most of Trek Success as it related to details



    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    The Fictional Universe version, which is a bit of a retcon, makes a lot of sense (it's really very good). It was laid out by Ronald Moore of Battlestar Galactica fame, who worked on DS9, in the early 2000s.

    Basically his idea is this:

    The Klingon-Federation Cold War of the latter half of the 23rd century led to a large fleet of cheap, advanced, but fairly small ships (think Constitution or Constellation class) that the Khitomer Accords saw serve short lives and rapidly retired (e.g. the very short service life of the Enterprise A compared to the original).
    This has a real world analog because in the four years immediately following the end of the US-Soviet Cold War, the US rapidly retired many ships and aircraft that had decades of life left to them. Within the Federation, this led to the commissioning of larger, more capable but fewer explorers, generally of the Excelsior class design (and their derivatives).

    The Tomed Incident in the 2310s and the withdrawal of the Romulan Empire from contact of any kind towards the Federation further reduced the military threat. The Federation also came into contact with the Cardassian Empire about this time, but relations weren't poor yet.

    In the 2330s and 2340s, the Federation continued to build fewer, but larger ships, such as the Ambassador class (of which we've only ever seen a handful) and withdrew so early aging Excelsior class ships from service, but the "Flight II" and later Excelsior class was still the backbone of the pre-TNG / post-TOS era fleet. Since things seemed unprecedentedly peaceful - friendly Klingons, Romulans minding their own business, no war on the horizon, Starfleet shifted back hard to it's pre-Klingon Cold War mission, its legacy of the NX-01-era, which is peaceful exploration, but this time with more resources and with their most cable, largest ships ever. The Ambassador-class was the first class large enough to do long duration (longer than 5 years) deep space exploration away from Starbases, and some officers were allowed to bring their families along.
    I love your break down and response, thanks Skroe, but here is my BUT haha. The thing is and others have made some points not and thorough as you but nonetheless on the idea and concept.

    Here's the problem or the problem from the foundation. The Starship Enterprise is a ship well known from the beginning as being legendary, well before TNG, not only that but it was is and will always be a target made clear for its name recognition, it's true that they live in a very different world in TNG than the Original series, but this is a distinction on the detail.

    However on top of this the technical aspect, without leaping forward to some of the other points, here is the thing. Unlike a military base, this would include series like BattleStar Galactica, although being in a much different context. The threat of complete and total destruction of the Enterprise D was a reality visited constantly.

    Meaning how many times did Geordi Laforge, announce the Warp Core Drive had a damn "coolant leak", a fact that was never remedied even up to the films of TNG. The Enterprise for all it's advancements was a literal deathtrap, attacked too a warpcore that with the slightest "tap", from a Klingon Bird of Prey , would either have a "Coolant Leak" or they would have to entertain dumping the damn thing.

    The condition with this warp core extended even into other series, Voyager I believe played with the notion they might have to "dump" the Warp Core after sustaining too much damage.

    What happens if they can't there are thousands of people hundreds of families on the ship, sure it has escape pods and all that, but the truth is the kinds of danger presented even during the very beginning, makes it to me extremely questionable the idea of making the Enterprise a vessel for which to allow civilians much less families.



    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    The undercurrent of this era, the 2330s to about 3050, was that it is pretty much the most peaceful time in the Federation since the early 23rd century (the 60-year between the founding of the Federation after the Romulan War, in 2161 and the start of the Federation-Klingon Cold War). A century of cold and hot wars was behind it. So what did they do next? They authorized their most ambitious ship ever, the Galaxy class, of which they would only ever build 6 (at first) with frames laid for 6 more. It would not only be a technological marvel, and though heavily armed, it was at the very forefront of long term peaceful deep space exploration. They could spend, in theory, a decade or two away from Federation space The Galaxy Class, of which the Enterprise D is one, is the symbol of what Starfleet thought the next 40 years would be: much like the prior 20, which saw no threats on the horizon. The official "Families on starship policy" was apparently new when Captain Picard took command in early 2364. He had never had families on his ships before and he wasn't comfortable with the idea at all. But in other ways he reflected the entire pacifist / explorer ethos of Starfleet of that era. In the first two seasons (before Q Who), he and Riker were dismissive of the importance of even routine combat readiness drills, thinking it almost beneath them.

    But there actually was a threat. And though the Galaxy-class program ramped up in the 2350s, relations with the Cardassian Empire became deeply hostile and the "Cardassian Wars" began. The Cardassian Wars were low level border skirmishes, and occasional fleet action, but extremely brutal. The Federation committed older, more numerous ships, mostly Excelsior-class (and derivatives) to the war. The Cardassian Wars would start and stop, but the Federation was larger, more advanced and much more powerful than the Cardassian Empire and never acted to decisively end them. While the Cardassian Wars were the formative military experience for an entire generation of Starfleet officers who would become commanders during the Dominion War, they didn't fundamentally change what Starfleet thought the future was going to be: peaceful exploration and a mostly-harmless border skirmish here and there. So Galaxy class building and introduction continued, even as the Cardassian Wars stretched from around 2350 until around 2368 (Season 5 of TNG).

    Families, for starfleet, at this point, made sense. If they're going to send starships into deep space for a decade, families should go too.

    And then everything changed.
    This so far is the best argument about deep space and prefaced on what you said, hell I do think that makes sense, however from a writing perspective, along the way, the Federation was NOT sending "The Enterprise" on just science or exploration missions.

    I mean I agree I think it's fine to have families in some context, military bases for example or like DS9, right, the Calvary is always just a phone call away so to speak, they had provisions and safety measures especially for evacuation, along with a allied planet and what not, although some of the religious tensions kind of made me question how appropriate some of DS9's compliment, but honestly I don't remember seeing a lot of families on it.




    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    In early 2365, Q arranged for the first contact between the Borg and the Federation by transporting the Enterprise-D to System J-25. The most powerful ship in Starfleet fairs extremely poorly against a single Borg Cube, and is only saved from destruction by Q's last second intervention. Notably, the Enterprise D also had families on board. Upon returning to the Federation, Starfleet becomes alarmed that beyond known space there are hostile threats the likes of which they never imagined and not just "more empires like the Tholians or the Cardassians" or something, and the Federation will come into contact with them at a severe disadvantage. As a result, Starfleet begins laying the groundwork for what Commander Shelby called in "The Best of Both Worlds" a new "Federation Battle Fleet". The Defiant class, the Saber class, the Steamrunner class, the Akira class, the Norway class, and all those new ships seen years later in the Battle of Sector 001 (Star Trek: First Contact) and the Dominion War, got their genesis here. They were all smaller (with a sleeker profile), more agile, faster, heavily armed, and no accommodations for families. Things like Quantum Torpedoes also have their genesis here. The Federation also decides to complete building the final 6 Galaxy class ships (for a total of 12) from their unfinished frames, although with large portions of their internal volume left empty as their primary mission is to be essentially dreadnaughts, and not deep space explorers.

    The first contact with the Borg at System J-25 is a major moment for the Federation. It completely upends security planning going back to the 2330s about the universe they were living in. The return of the Romulans (the last episode of TNG Season 1) a year before First Contact with the Borg further underscores that this "new era of peaceful exploration" they thought they were living in, may in fact, just be a transient era between major conflicts.

    A year after first contact with the Borg, the Borg invade the Federation and engage them at the Battle of Wolf 359. The Federation assembles a fleet of 40 starships, mostly comprised mostly of legacy TOS-era ships such as Miranda Class variants, Excelsior class (and variants), an Ambassador class, and some 2340s and 2350s proto-Galaxy class demonstrators. The "New Federation Battle Fleet" is still in the design stage, as are quantum torpedoes and adaptive shielding. For the most part, it is identical to the fleets that engaged the Cardassians a decade prior. Many ships carry families at this point, in accordance with Federation 2350s policies. The Borg destroy 39 of 40 ships, and kill or assimilate 11,000 people in a couple of hours. Considering many of these ships (TOS Era) had crews of 150-250, a casualty count of 11,000 implies several thousand civilians were killed too.
    Yeah, interesting bits, I often wondered if or how exaction "The Borg" were imagined or going to be imagined from the very first episode of TNG, however I do bow to your superior knowledge of the series haha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    If the J-25 incident was a warning, Wolf 359 was the code-red moment for the Federation. Not only was their legacy starships in huge numbers completely inadequate against new threats, but if there is a real such a fleet could be entirely annihilated, families have absolutely no place on Starships.

    The years after the Battle of Wolf 359 lead to a regeneration and massive enlargening of the fleet in response to it. Older Excelsior class starships, like the USS Lakota, were upgraded with next technologies and new weapons. And while the Defiant-class was largely a failure (for a few years still, until it entered production in the 2370s), other new post-Borg classes entered service in huge numbers. Again, these ships were all smaller, with a slimmer perofile, more heavily armed, and more agile, than anything the Federation had produced in about 80 years. Excelsior classes starships are generally bigger than most of these ships, but even the most upgraded Excelsiors like the Lakota could never take them in a fight (DS9 Episode: Paradise Lost). Furthermore Starfleet evidently called back many, many far distant starships that were on long term exploration for retrofit and gave a new security-mission. The Enterprise-D and these recalled ships spend the rest of the 2360s acting largely border patrol as the fleet grew. Exploration kind of takes a back seat, and even the Enterprise-D is put in the role of largely being a "problem solver" ship in the frontier between the Federation and Cardassian Empire. It basically stops exploring far beyond the boundaries of the Federation after mid-2367.
    Yeah from a writing standpoint it makes no sense over the duration, as a practical matter, it might not be completely far fetched. Although my opinion it doesn't seem like it though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    However Starfleet's primary mission is still exploration, so they complete a limited run of a kind of pre-Borg dead end program, the Intrepid-class (USS Voyager), that incorporates starfleet's then-newest technology, and Galaxy class-legacy technology, in a much smaller starship. The Intrepid-class lacks many the post-Borg technologies, but the smaller size combined with the timing of their introduction (after Wolf 359) make these the first new long duration explorers introduced in decades that don't allow for families, beyond maybe the senior staff. Starfleet makes very few of these ships as resources are focused on building up defense forces. Only 3 are known for sure to exist (Voyager, Bellerophon, and the Intrepid). Also around 2368, Starfleet also lays the groundwork for a new capital ship, the Sovereign class, which incorporates post-Intrepid and post-Borg technology into a new spaceframe that is both highly capable deep space explorer and an advanced dreadnought.
    Where there even really families on Voyager, I don't remember seeing any children outside of maybe a handful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    The Sovereign-class is introduced in 2370, and some other ship is renamed and commissioned in 2372 as the USS Enterprise-E. Here we are kind of full circle. The Enterprise E is the most advanced long-duration explorer in the fleet, but with a smaller crew, and less science facilities than the Galaxy-class Enterprise D. It is also the most powerful combat vessel Starfleet has ever introduced. Also unlike the decade prior, Starfleet is in mass production of "post-Borg" battlefleet ships (Defiant class, Akira class, Saber class) along side it, not only to fill out their general security needs, but because the Dominion War is on the horizon. But the Enterprise-E, in contrast to the D, represents the final rejection of the "families on starships" mid 23rd century philosophy, because although it is largely the same crew as the Enterprise D, families are not allowed on it, not even among senior officers. The reduced science facilities also points to Starfleet breaking up the exploration job. Instead of an "all in one" as the Galaxy class was, instead Starfleet sees the Sovereign class, in its explorer role, as a kind of heavily armed "discovery ship", while smaller dedicated science ships of the Nova class (USS Equionox) or Rhode Island class follow along later to do "in depth study" of what was "discovered". This implies a kind of segregation of skill-sets of crews themselves depending on the ship's purpose (something real navies do).
    Yeah whether planned or not I think as the cannon grew by the time the Sovereign-Class came around, I think the idea of having families on the Enterprise was pretty inexcusable considering everything known at that point UNLESS as you said it was a purely scientific ship.

    Kind of like Dr Crusher's Ship in the last Episode of TNG which was a purely medical ship or hospital, which actually did exist. I think the idea of families would be a better argument for a ship like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    When the Borg returned a year after the Enterprise-E's activation (Star Trek First Contact), they fought in the Solar System in the Battle of Sector 001. The Borg faced a fleet largely composed of post-Borg contact ships (in reality, this is because ILM made new ships for the movie), but also faced some pre-Borg contact ships as well. These ships were either part of (just) pre-Dominion War Solar System defense fleet and/or were in various stages of construction / maintenance when the Borg arrived. There is at least 40-50 ships, and while around 20 were lost, they had a decisive victory this time, as with the arrival of the Enterprise E (hero ship ofc!), they managed to militarily destroy the Borg cube. This implied that the Federation's military build up since Wolf 359 had been overwhelmingly successful. But again, none of these ships had families, so losses were far lighter than Wolf 359. This Battle took place in the closing months of the Dominion-Federation Cold War. The Dominion War, the largest war in galactic history (by a lot) was on the horizon about 3 months later.

    On the eve of the Dominion War, the fleet inside Federation space has probably quadrupled in size (or more) in the past few years as old ships were reactivated, new post-Borg ships were mass produced, and deep space ships were recalled for potential combat duty. In contrast to the 40-ship fleet at Wolf 359, Dominion War engagements see Federation fleets with 100-400 starships. Many of these are Excelsior class, Miranda class and post-Borg battlefleet classes. The "Combat-grade" final 6 Galaxy class also fight often in the war, in a dreadnought role. No ships at this point have any families. That is out of Starfleet policy, as their focus right now is on security, not exploration.

    After two and a half brutal years of war, the Alpha Quadrant alliance wins the Dominon War, but Section 31st post-war projection turns out to be on point. The Klingon Empire took the worst of the war, and it will be a generation before they rebuild. The Federation took heavily losses, but (like the United States after World War II) ended the war with the largest most powerful and capable "military" it ever had... the clear superpower of its time. The Romulan Star Empire entered the war very late, and its losses were comparatively light. The post-Dominion War political situation sees a Federation that won the war, and ended strong, but also incurred severe damage and loss of enormous resources, competing against the Romulan Star Empire that is flush with new post-war ships (the Valdore-type) in anticipation of a new Federation-Romulan Cold War. The subsequent coup against the Romulan Senate by Shinzon of Remus, the success the Enterprise-E had in stopping the Reman attack on the Federation, and then, in 2387, the destruction of Romulus when the Hobus Star went Supernova, evidently ended the threat of new Federation-Romulan Cold War.

    ---

    So now there you have the "real world" and the "fictional" versions. Let's kind of put them together.

    Aside from Rick Berman, Star Trek between around 1989 and 2006 went through a lot of hands. A lot of writers and a lot of producers. The original TNG staff all kind of quite in disgust for one reason or another, but the season 3-7 staff was kind of a Dream Team. The DS9 staff took half the dream team, and was allowed to do its own thing in syndicated TV land, while the flagship show on UPN, Voyager, took the other half, and brought new people in. Enterprise in the end, kind of was the Voyager production crew with some new people.

    Star Trek never really had any "plan" because of how many hands its been through. The internal consistency was owed to long term production staffers, usually on the visual side, and Rick Berman (Executive Producer). But not really the writers, who didn't really carry over show to show. A lot of the "rationalizations" that are in the fictional version above is one such writer (arguably the best) filling in a the blanks between a lot of competing motivations and episodes and lines over 600 episodes of TV that never had any kind of "master plan" to it.

    Case in point, Rodennberry's original ideas about the "world" of TNG - highly philosophical stuff - also would have made for bad TV. The enormous fleets of the Dominon War? Those were done by the visual artists contracted out to produce them, because the scripts imagined far smaller fleets. And they were only made possible because Deep Space Nine's last three seasons arrived EXACTLY when it became economical to do CG like that for television (compare to TNG season 4 space combat).

    Families, much like the Hotel Lobby look of the Enterprise D bridge, was a Roddenberyism the production staff was stuck with, that they abandoned as soon as they could make their own shows set in the Starfleet Universe. One look at the Voyager bridge shows you exactly how staffers thought a "Star Trek" show could look better on TV visually. As soon as they could change it, they did.

    There is so many aspects this is the case. Nobody ever really even loved the design of the Galaxy-class. It's an odd looking ship. Not to mention it's sheer volume is such that the show never really captured it (unlike the NX-01, where it felt like we've seen basically every room of it). As soon as the staff could go smaller and sleeker they did.

    I do think Ron Moore's fictional history of "how families happened" is pretty great though. It's entirely consistent with TNGs portrayal of the 2360s Starfleet Admiralty too, which is to say, highly incompetent, terrible at everything, and regularly caught with their pants down. There is a kind of a real world analog, (though in subsequent years) with how defense professionals and experts convinced themselves and our elected leaders after 9/11 that US security needs henceforth would be "counter-terrorism" and things of that nature, and there wouldn't be a need anymore for Cold War style forces. And now where we are, 18 years later, and we can't build ships, missiles and warplanes fast enough, due to the threat of Chinese expansionism. The more accurate historical analog, one Ron Moore probably was referencing (he's a history buff) was how US disarmament after World War II was rapidly reversed when the threat of the Soviet Union became more manifest, but it took years to reverse.

    In short, I think the issue of families on the Enterprise, is a fascinating way to look at the disorganized, but strangely cohesive in the end, the Rick Berman era of Star Trek came to be, and also a fascinating way to look at the Federation and Starfleet's fictional history.
    Yeah, it's really weird getting into the details of some of the best series on TV and how they were made, for good or worst, and I will admit learning or getting a peek into how it was made does put a lot of pieces in from the entire picture.

    Honestly Roddenberry's vision was great, and that obviously transcended into series made with many many elements meaning writers that made the shows a success. But as it stand yeah, I still gotta say the notion that families would be on a ship like Enterprise even considering the compelling evidence you given. The idea looks or seems to me more reasonable perhaps on paper, but the logic and practice seems a bit off.

    One shot from a Warbird D'deridex and that Warp Core could take like 3 to 5000 potentially to their deaths including women and children.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noomz View Post
    There's many flaws with Star Trek and I can say that as a huge fan of Star Trek TNG. One thing that always struck me is how naive they are in the future and how hillariously incapable they are at security. Where are the special task forces? Where are the elite military units?

    Anyway, throughout history, families have often come along with their soldiers on their travels or where they are stationed. It's not too strange that the same is the case for the Enterprise.
    So as many times as the Enterprise had a Coolant leak of it's Warp Core

  5. #45
    The Galaxy-Class is more of a city than a simple starship. Thats pretty much the design idea from what i red a while ago when doing some research for a D&D-Style Star Trek game. Its supposed to go far far away to places "no man has gone before" and is supposed to sustain itself for extended periods of time, which it successfully does for most of the show to the point that it actually does feel like kind of a deal when they are at a station or encounter other ships outside of conflicts the Galaxy class is involved with.

    Thats literally all you need to know. It needs to be able to defend itself and is hosting the families of the crew because it wont return to earth for years and years potentially. The Enterprise returned to Earth much more often than intended as well. One occasion happened entirely out of Picards worries after certain events made the crew assume something was off with the federation, another was tied to Datas Head being found after been buried for over 500 years while still sitting on his head. Another occasion were the Borg... None of these were things anybody probably expected when designing the Galaxy-class.

    It makes sense if you separate what the Enterprise does and what the Galaxy-class was made for. Even if you leave out the later "retconning" in which on and off its mentioned in books that some people in the federation were not to fond of the Galaxy-class being so heavily armed because "exploration vessel" but that a few more militaristic people pushed for something to replace the federations combat cruisers who were all super old then or not viable. (The Excelsior-class was build during Kirks lifetime and the Ambassador-class was to expensive to build i believe for to little effect... The Galaxy-class was obviously also mega expensive but it was also extremely powerful as everyone knows, and they managed to build "hulls" that got 80% of the inventory cut out, can be piloted by much smaller crews and can be equipped with more weapons because they were more modular by design, which is something they used during the Dominion war, i know way to much about this. Fuck.)

    Star Trek starting with TNG is in most books and comics surprisingly coherent with its logic as far as ship design goes. The exception is the Nebula-class (i dont know what the fuck is going on there, it jumps between being a bigger radar dish to a super heavy war ship every other mentioning). This obviously ends with Discovery sadly...
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Ausr View Post
    I thought it was Wesley.
    It was definitely Wesley.
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    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by X Amadeus X View Post
    With the announcement of a new Star Trek series centered around Jean Luc Picard arguably the greatest Star Trek Captain ever. There is one glaring flaw with the series never addressed, and no I don't mean the lack of bathrooms

    But the problem is this, I know that the Galaxy Class Starship is a ship of exploration, nevermind the fact it's armed to the teeth, but why the hell are there family members on board?

    They didn't have that on Kirk's ship, so the question begs, who thought it was a good idea to put unenlisted, women and men along with children on Star ship that although was on a peace mission was armed, and routinely sent into harms way along the neutral zone to deal with such conditions as with the Klingons or Romulans or even The Borg
    Enterprise was the flagship of the star fleet and a diplomatic ship rather than an exploration one. many of its missions were diplomatic missions on the federation's border not in unknown space

  8. #48
    The thing about the splits is that the split ship looked like crap.

    It was ugly and the weapon effects could not be shown in their full glory (for that time).

    So they just never bothered showing it again, which is imo good.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    Enterprise was the flagship of the star fleet and a diplomatic ship rather than an exploration one. many of its missions were diplomatic missions on the federation's border not in unknown space
    There have been times in the past Starfleet has specifically sent the Enterprise on diplomatic missions, because of it's name and recognition, and those missions almost always resulted in serious conflict.

    So to say well it isn't strictly a shop of exploration or to deny that has been expressed is puzzling. However even neverminding what it's initial charter was, it was clearly evident upon some point that sending it filled with civilians was probably a bad idea.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    The thing about the splits is that the split ship looked like crap.

    It was ugly and the weapon effects could not be shown in their full glory (for that time).

    So they just never bothered showing it again, which is imo good.
    Oh Come on you didn't like that big ass UFO like saucer section? I thought the effect was cool, kind of like Knight Rider in space, although again for practical purposes it seems silly.

    Like in a fight, which it wasn't designed for, if they had to suddenly go into battle, it would be just that suddenly, what are they going to do, jail the Klingons and be all like "Hey guys can you hold up" Separating the saucer section how much time we talking.

    Also would Riker have been in big trouble for not only separating saucer section and attacking a Borg Cube with both, I don't remember him dropping anybody off or ever using the escape pods.

  10. #50
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    I get the idea that they brought their families with them because they were sent on long missions of exploration. However, TNG never struck me as being about that. More often than not, the Enterprise-D was on diplomatic missions, or on some Earth colonies, or to support scientists, etc. That's when it was not embroiled in Klingon internal affairs, or on a conflict with Romulans, or the Cardassians, or the Borg... They never really felt that far away from Earth and almost always on Federation territory. A few episodes even got the Enterprise back to Earth.

    Also, I also felt it strange that the Federation would send away his biggest, strongest ships on exploration missions. It seems to me more logical to send small, nimble science vessels (or even probes) to do the job. Keep your strongest ships to protect your space. I mean, it's not like the Federation didn't have any conflicts after the Klingons. The Romulans isolated themselves but were still a threat. They even attacked the Klingons and Starfleet intervened. Then there was the war with Cardassia. Both happened during the lifetimes of the Enterprise's crew. Worf was rescued in the first when he was just a child, and O'Brien fought in the second. Therefore I agree that having families in a ship that was bound to play an active military role one day or the other was a bit silly.
    Last edited by Frontenac; 2019-01-13 at 02:28 AM.
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  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by X Amadeus X View Post
    There have been times in the past Starfleet has specifically sent the Enterprise on diplomatic missions, because of it's name and recognition, and those missions almost always resulted in serious conflict.
    So to say well it isn't strictly a shop of exploration or to deny that has been expressed is puzzling. However even neverminding what it's initial charter was, it was clearly evident upon some point that sending it filled with civilians was probably a bad idea.
    Oh Come on you didn't like that big ass UFO like saucer section? I thought the effect was cool, kind of like Knight Rider in space, although again for practical purposes it seems silly.
    Like in a fight, which it wasn't designed for, if they had to suddenly go into battle, it would be just that suddenly, what are they going to do, jail the Klingons and be all like "Hey guys can you hold up" Separating the saucer section how much time we talking.
    Also would Riker have been in big trouble for not only separating saucer section and attacking a Borg Cube with both, I don't remember him dropping anybody off or ever using the escape pods.
    The saucer section was awesome - the other butthole part was not.
    It just looked weird and lame and the weapon effects from it were not good.
    But if i remember right the saucer section was the civilian part and the butthole was the "combat" part?

    Anyway the ship looked better when it was all together.
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  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by SoundOfGuns View Post
    Star Trek starting with TNG is in most books and comics surprisingly coherent with its logic as far as ship design goes. The exception is the Nebula-class (i dont know what the fuck is going on there, it jumps between being a bigger radar dish to a super heavy war ship every other mentioning).
    What's so confusing about the Nebula? It's just a more utilitarian alternative to the Galaxy class. Similar capabilities but presumably easier to produce. With the added benefit of being able to swap around that top section (above the saucer) depending on mission requirements.

    That's just a potential in-universe explanation, though... I'm sure the real reason it was made was so that there was some more variety of the ships on the show without having to design them from scratch, or constantly reuse ships from Kirk's era.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    What's so confusing about the Nebula? It's just a more utilitarian alternative to the Galaxy class. Similar capabilities but presumably easier to produce. With the added benefit of being able to swap around that top section (above the saucer) depending on mission requirements.

    That's just a potential in-universe explanation, though... I'm sure the real reason it was made was so that there was some more variety of the ships on the show without having to design them from scratch, or constantly reuse ships from Kirk's era.
    Of course. The real explanation is something else. There is the whole thing about the real Ambassador-class design which is a gorgeous ship to look at (https://www.neutralzone.de/database/...rototype09.jpg) which wasn't used due to budget/time constraints and a lot of other stuff done behind the scenes are like that, no doubt. So there is no harm in that, that stuff happens. Im more refering to the in-universe insanity...

    In-universe... the ship really constantly shifts between being an utter science vessel that is explicitly a budget version of the galaxy class to being so ridiculously armed that it could blow the galaxy out of the universe with the push of a button. Like... in most stories the ship has 8 phasers and 2 torpedo launchers and that is taken as the proper version. In some others it waltzes around with 4 to 6 torpedo launchers tho and 16 phaser banks (the Galaxy has 2 torpedo launchers and 14 phaser banks) and suddenly its so immensely powerful that it counts as a warship. Even in TNG there is some weird contradiction. In three episodes it takes part in its depicted as a weak science ship that needs escorts because its really not that powerful (well in two of these, in one its only a wreck). In The Wounded it goes on a one-ship rampage against cardassia tho... and these super-powered Nebulas are... really not in any form described as special or particularly different from the others. Its treated like that's just how they are, which is odd since such differences between ships of the same class are usually pointed out when writers in Star Trek do something like that. Obviously im not going to count the appearance in Star Trek Armada.
    Last edited by SoundOfGuns; 2019-01-13 at 11:36 AM.
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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by SoundOfGuns View Post
    In-universe... the ship really constantly shifts between being an utter science vessel that is explicitly a budget version of the galaxy class to being so ridiculously armed that it could blow the galaxy out of the universe with the push of a button. Like... in most stories the ship has 8 phasers and 2 torpedo launchers. In some others it waltzes around with 4 to 6 torpedo launchers tho and 16 phaser banks (the Galaxy has 2 torpedo launchers and 14 phaser banks) and suddenly its so immensely powerful that it counts as a warship. Even in TNG there is some weird contradiction. In three episodes it takes part in its depicted as a weak science ship that needs escorts because its really not that powerful (well in two of these, in one its only a wreck). In The Wounded it goes on a one-ship rampage against cardassia tho... Obviously im not going to count the appearance in Star Trek Armada.
    The extra armaments can easily be justified by them swapping out the upper section for a combat module. I haven't seen the episode in a while, but I'm pretty sure in The Wounded, they were going after lightly-armed Cardassian vessels and using tricks to evade/outmaneuver the actual warships that were sent to stop them.

    But the capabilities of these ships has always been at the whim of the writers. In one episode they might make an offhand remark about being able to vaporize the surface of a planet, and in another they might be struggling to deal with an asteroid. It's probably not a good idea to think about it too much...since that sort of crap really doesn't matter anyway.

  15. #55
    The Lightbringer Skizzit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    I get the idea that they brought their families with them because they were sent on long missions of exploration. However, TNG never struck me as being about that. More often than not, the Enterprise-D was on diplomatic missions, or on some Earth colonies, or to support scientists, etc. That's when it was not embroiled in Klingon internal affairs, or on a conflict with Romulans, or the Cardassians, or the Borg... They never really felt that far away from Earth and almost always on Federation territory. A few episodes even got the Enterprise back to Earth.

    Also, I also felt it strange that the Federation would send away his biggest, strongest ships on exploration missions. It seems to me more logical to send small, nimble science vessels (or even probes) to do the job. Keep your strongest ships to protect your space. I mean, it's not like the Federation didn't have any conflicts after the Klingons. The Romulans isolated themselves but were still a threat. They even attacked the Klingons and Starfleet intervened. Then there was the war with Cardassia. Both happened during the lifetimes of the Enterprise's crew. Worf was rescued in the first when he was just a child, and O'Brien fought in the second. Therefore I agree that having families in a ship that was bound to play an active military role one day or the other was a bit silly.
    It was sort of idea of the federation and the series in general that war had been eliminated. Yes, their ships had weapons, but it was more because they knew that it was better to be prepared, but they would never seek out a fight. That's why the creation of The Defiant was such a big deal. It was the first time in a long time they designed a ship with defense as it's primary purpose. You notice there were no family members or civilians on board that ship.

  16. #56
    Some of the writing on TNG was fantastic and there were great scenes. This one came back to me recently.

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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausr View Post
    I thought it was Wesley.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Some of the writing on TNG was fantastic and there were great scenes. This one came back to me recently.
    An awesome scene.
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