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  1. #241
    Warchief Toho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    They didn't try. They slaughtered or deleted them. That's not trying thats a meat grinder. AU Durotan was the last nail in the coffin.
    Welcome to how Blizzard develops stories and characters.
    They always get slaughtered.

  2. #242
    Orcs regained their lost honor from the Siege.

  3. #243
    Immortal Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    Most of what you say is head canon.
    then proof so, i already posts que ingame quote about the case,a nd you are just going REEE
    It factually wasn't a sacking.
    it is stated ingame that the city was sacked, you canno't say the game and his lore is wrong

    The Alliance helped the Horde rebels retake Org.
    And also sacked the city, and let the city for the horde with varian's mercy

    The Horde PCs are on the side of the rebels. Logically, the Alliance did not conquer the Horde.
    Yeah the tittle of "conquer of orgrimamr its totally false

    you guys are hilarious

    It seems like it only counts when people want to whine.
    Again, already showed to you that both cases are not the same, you can put your fingers in your ears and pretend that context don't exist.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    To conquer something you need to hold it.
    But dont take my word for it.
    not a single thing said you must hold it, LMAO what a bullshit

    you can conquer it and then let it go

    A raid doesnt mean you conquered it. It means just that. You raided.
    just because you think it was not what happen, is what happened, the tittle alone deliberate prove you are wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    If anything you are going back to your roots. Genocide, child murder and rape are hallmarks of being part of the Horde canonically.
    thats rich, pure gold

    [quote]
    Thats not a loss. Its just the faction you picked. Its not our problem you dont care about non-Warcraft 3 characters.

    i will use this for now everytime the alliance whine again "its your problem because you picked the self-righetous good gus" will be fun


    You can keep Orgrimmar. Being forced to stay in that terrible city is punishment enough.
    your salty levels are hilarious

  4. #244
    Warchief Toho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaumanKing View Post
    Orcs regained their lost honor from the Siege.
    I think they were supposed to but once again they went down a road of slaughter, rape and genocide.
    How many times are we supposed to blame one leader for the crimes of many?

  5. #245
    I get and am not offering argument in any direction regarding the orcs or the state of their honor at present.

    I am simply curious: Slaughter, genocide (arguably just leveled-up slaughter), morals that do not match those of IRL humans, all true.

    But where is everyone getting rape from? Keep seeing suggestions that the Horde returned to raping? I just started my playthrough on my Alliance alt for BFA; is there a particularly effed up quest chain incoming?
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never....BURN IT"

  6. #246
    Over 9000! Saverem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gann Stonespire View Post
    Besides Garrosh They lost:


    The Kor'kron, Evil and gone forever

    Warsong Clan, Evil and gone forever

    Dragonmaw Clan, Evil and gone forever

    Zaela, Evil and gone forever

    Shokia, Evil and gone forever

    Nazgrim, Sided with Garrosh and gone from the Horde forever

    The idea of Orcs moving on from the past, gone forever

    The idea of Orcs being family with Tauren and Trolls, gone Forever

    Orcs having a racial leader, gone forever

    Orcs being anything but evil cannon fodder, gone forever.


    Now with Battle for Azeroth, more races of the Horde can join orcs on the evil cannon fodder team.
    You're throwing all Orcs in the same bandwagon. By that logic we can put all Humans in that evil bandwagon when Arthas chose to become TLK and slay thousands. Draeneis have Archimonde and KJ, they are evil! NELFs have Illidan and Xavius. Even the gentle Taurens had Magetha.

    Just because a particular character(s) of a certain race behaves a certain way, it doesn't make the entire race evil.


    True Orcs still put HONOR above all else. Look to Saurfang as the representation of what a true Orc ideology is.
    Last edited by Saverem; 2019-01-16 at 10:52 PM.
    "It's not what we don't know that gets us into trouble; it's what we know for sure that just ain't so." ~ Mark Twain
    "The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time" ~ Jesus of Nazareth
    "把它放在我的屁股,爸爸" ~ Dalai Lama

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Oneirophobia View Post
    snip

    A L M O S T E V E R Y T H I N G.

    Yeah definitely. Almost everything in WoW is based on a conspiracy to make men less violent.
    Inbetween all of what you wrote, this highlights your inability to read what I actually wrote.

    Nobody mentioned a conspiracy. I mentioned a socio-political trend. The two are the diametrically opposite by definition. Conspiracies are, by default, dealing with things that are supposedly kept in the dark. Socio-political trends are out in the open and have a varying degree of public support in a part of the population. What I am talking about is a socio-political trend. And yes, it definitely regards A L M O S T E V E R Y T H I N G.

    Starting from a "Muh Stronk Wahmen" 2018 Blizzard panel, which was graced with the longest streak of repeated "Look at these amazing women!" lines and demands for the audience to unorganically clap and cheer and all the way to the fact that most of the newly-made leadership positions have been given to completely new female characters (Mayla for all of Highmountain, Fareeya for the Lighforged, Alleria for the void elves, Thalyssra for the Nightborne, Talanji for the Zandalari, Katherine Proudmoore for Kul Tiras, Calia Menethil for some new lightforged undead spooks that are more likely to happen than not and a "female" Naaru which is supposedly the Prime Naaru for every single other Naaru out there). If not that, then well-known female characters of the franchise have been given a leadership role where they previously had none, as if it wasn't enough to introduce agenda-driven female characters to begin with, but they had to take a shot at some of the community's fan favourites too (Sylvanas and the Horde, Alleria and the void elves). Hell, they have to shove Lliadrin down a Horde player's monitor every single time too. The only female character that got there organically, through proper storytelling and no asspulls, is Moira.

    You then also have personal opinions of Golden, posted on her Twitter, that directly relate to the story she's telling with the characters she writes, especially Anduin, which allign with most of the popular SJW and snowflake positions. Hell, it makes it look like Golden directed the last Gillette advert too. Games are to be played for the gaming experience and stories are told for the worth of storytelling that they have, not for lessons on a trend in sociology or one that regards genders.

    You throw examples at me about characters that were established long before virtue signalling, snowflaking and political correctness were ever a thing and before it ruined their stories. I am pointing out the obvious changes in storytelling and how Blizzard is handling it ever since the snowflakes stopped melting and started falling through the Springs and Summers of 2010 and onward. I am not expecting you to understand something you can't affiliate with and that's keeping gaming out of the socio-political agendas of a bunch of writers, who keep pilling up self-inserted sociological views of our real world onto the stories they write.

    What makes this a thousand times worse is that Warcraft has always had well-established female characters and WoW itself has always attracted female gamers. There is absolutely no need for any of this.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2019-01-16 at 11:27 PM.

  8. #248
    Warchief Toho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AcidicSyn View Post
    I get and am not offering argument in any direction regarding the orcs or the state of their honor at present.

    I am simply curious: Slaughter, genocide (arguably just leveled-up slaughter), morals that do not match those of IRL humans, all true.

    But where is everyone getting rape from? Keep seeing suggestions that the Horde returned to raping? I just started my playthrough on my Alliance alt for BFA; is there a particularly effed up quest chain incoming?
    Alextrasza and Garona are perfect examples of canonical rape commited by the Horde.

  9. #249
    Immortal Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saverem View Post
    You're throwing all Orcs in the same bandwagon
    the point is people will put then in the same bandwagon and will blame then for everything that happen in wod

    for other orcs "fault" the orcs of the horde get their narrative destroyed, pushed away by their factions, tagged as racists warmongers ( even rapists by some lmao) and lot more, the stigma is already there and becoming worse.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    Alextrasza and Garona are perfect examples of canonical rape commited by the Horde.
    Yes but again. Everyone is talking about the Horde RETURNING to raping. Those are the original examples of Horde rape (Though Garona is arguably squarely on Gul'dan). In order for them to specifically "return" to raping, they would have had to have started raping again SINCE those events. Have they?

    Now, if the argument was simply that the members of that original Horde (so Orcs or Orcs, Forest Trolls, Goblins, and Ogres) were never made to pay for those crimes that's another matter entirely. My confusion is specifically with the use of the word "return" and it's definition versus how it's being used.
    Last edited by AcidicSyn; 2019-01-17 at 03:10 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never....BURN IT"

  11. #251
    Warchief Toho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AcidicSyn View Post
    Yes but again. Everyone is talking about the Horde RETURNING to raping. Those are the original examples of Horde rape (Though Garona is arguably squarely on Gul'dan). In order for them to specifically "return" to raping, they would have had to have started raping again SINCE those events. Have they?

    Now, if the argument was simply that the members of that original Horde (so Orcs or Orcs, Forest Trolls, Goblins, and Ogres) were never made to pay for those crimes that's another matter entirely. My confusion is specifically with the use of the word "return" and it's definition versus how it's being used.
    The Orcs and members of the Horde are returning to their old roots my friend which is what the old horde used to do.
    Given what we know the old horde did we can extrapolate to what the new horde is doing.
    Blizzard is limited to what they can show on the screen but they can leave clues unless they use a book to explicitly mention it or deny it.

    During Tyrande's ascension questline you had this area where numerous Night Elf men and women were tied up.
    Meanwhile Horde soldiers with the title of slaver were throwing spears at these helpless victims.
    The Forsaken soldiers did not really care, they just wanted to blight everyone. But the Orcs and Trolls? Now that was an interesting scene.
    So yeah. I completely believe the Horde is back to what they were doing before.
    Blizzard is deliberatingly showing this is not just a Forsaken issue but a Horde issue.

    I think it is pretty clear the Horde is back to raping people.
    You may be thinking I am reading way too much into this but they are having sport with war prisoners. Why wouldnt they rape? They have done it before.
    They clearly have no problem killing non-soldiers and playing with their prisoners.
    I think rape is the least of a Horde prisoner worries.

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Orcs and members of the Horde are returning to their old roots my friend which is what the old horde used to do.
    Given what we know the old horde did we can extrapolate to what the new horde is doing.
    Blizzard is limited to what they can show on the screen but they can leave clues unless they use a book to explicitly mention it or deny it.

    During Tyrande's ascension questline you had this area where numerous Night Elf men and women were tied up.
    Meanwhile Horde soldiers with the title of slaver were throwing spears at these helpless victims.

    The Forsaken soldiers did not really care, they just wanted to blight everyone. But the Orcs and Trolls? Now that was an interesting scene.
    So yeah. I completely believe the Horde is back to what they were doing before.
    Blizzard is deliberatingly showing this is not just a Forsaken issue but a Horde issue.

    I think it is pretty clear the Horde is back to raping people.
    You may be thinking I am reading way too much into this but they are having sport with war prisoners. Why wouldnt they rape? They have done it before.
    They clearly have no problem killing non-soldiers and playing with their prisoners.
    I think rape is the least of a Horde prisoner worries.
    And this is really nothing new. We got moments like Brennadam since Beta. 0/10 Thrall would not Warchief it again.
    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing...

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Orcs and members of the Horde are returning to their old roots my friend which is what the old horde used to do.
    Given what we know the old horde did we can extrapolate to what the new horde is doing.
    Blizzard is limited to what they can show on the screen but they can leave clues unless they use a book to explicitly mention it or deny it.

    During Tyrande's ascension questline you had this area where numerous Night Elf men and women were tied up.
    Meanwhile Horde soldiers with the title of slaver were throwing spears at these helpless victims.
    The Forsaken soldiers did not really care, they just wanted to blight everyone. But the Orcs and Trolls? Now that was an interesting scene.
    So yeah. I completely believe the Horde is back to what they were doing before.
    Blizzard is deliberatingly showing this is not just a Forsaken issue but a Horde issue.

    I think it is pretty clear the Horde is back to raping people.
    You may be thinking I am reading way too much into this but they are having sport with war prisoners. Why wouldnt they rape? They have done it before.
    They clearly have no problem killing non-soldiers and playing with their prisoners.
    I think rape is the least of a Horde prisoner worries.
    That's why I had asked if I had any particularly messed up quest chains coming up that suggested the Horde was returning to those actions initially; since nothing of the sort had taken place since the first Horde through now, it was confusing due to the sheer volume of people saying as much.

    Judging by this and the example Makabreska just gave, looks like the answer to my initial question is: Yes.

    Although in your particular example, it is a touch ironic that the Forsaken appear somehow less brutal than the others. (Killing everyone versus torturing/raping and THEN killing everyone). To me anyway.

    EDIT: Oh and no, I don't think you're reading too much into that particular example. The title of "Slaver" carries implications with it with rape being pretty high on that list. Any number of titles could have been used in its place if they didn't want people to think rape was taking place.
    Last edited by AcidicSyn; 2019-01-17 at 06:49 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never....BURN IT"

  14. #254
    Warchief Toho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AcidicSyn View Post
    EDIT: Oh and no, I don't think you're reading too much into that particular example. The title of "Slaver" carries implications with it with rape being pretty high on that list. Any number of titles could have been used in its place if they didn't want people to think rape was taking place.
    Agreed. I think Blizzard is trying to tell a deep story that would be absolutely possible if this was a single player game (RPG or RTS) but they cant especially with the socially woke people. Can you imagine an explicit quest that asks the Horde player to find and capture/kill hiding civilians or stop fleeing boats?
    Thats pretty hardcore.

    There is a lot of details players could miss with environmental storytelling. Thankfully there are some artists out there that make these scenes more iconic and explicit in their representation. Its hard to find any sympathy for the Horde has faction when you view things like that.


  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    Agreed. I think Blizzard is trying to tell a deep story that would be absolutely possible if this was a single player game (RPG or RTS) but they cant especially with the socially woke people. Can you imagine an explicit quest that asks the Horde player to find and capture/kill hiding civilians or stop fleeing boats?
    Thats pretty hardcore.

    There is a lot of details players could miss with environmental storytelling. Thankfully there are some artists out there that make these scenes more iconic and explicit in their representation. Its hard to find any sympathy for the Horde has faction when you view things like that.
    ~images snipped~]
    First off: Holy crap where are you finding these images they are exceptional. I particularly like the last one with the adult and child. For some reason it feels like a call or echo of the mother and child from Sylvanas' warbringers clip. The blood elf at the fore in the first image is a great touch, just all around great looking pieces.

    Secondly: Hahaha! No need to imagine, during the War of Thorns chain on Horde side, while we're not explicitly told to murder hiding civilians, we certainly had the option to do it at Astrannar, and we all recall the discussions surrounding that event.

    It would be something interesting to see WoWs story told through a single player lens though, I get the feeling that the general impression of the storytelling would be much better than most perceive it is now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never....BURN IT"

  16. #256
    Warchief Toho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AcidicSyn View Post
    First off: Holy crap where are you finding these images they are exceptional.
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/War_of_the_Thorns
    Here

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    That's not what @Toho is saying. You can only use the excuse of "I was brainwashed" so many times until ppl stop taking you seriously.

    Heck, no other race was given a brand new crack at redeeming themselves like the orcs were in WoD. And guess what. Chose felblood again in the end lol.
    Meanwhile, we can use the "but... but.. Theramore /poutyface" excuse for the better part of 8 years and that's fine (ignoring that it was a military base being used to move our troops and supplies directly into horde territory)?

  18. #258
    Warchief Toho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    Meanwhile, we can use the "but... but.. Theramore /poutyface" excuse for the better part of 8 years and that's fine (ignoring that it was a military base being used to move our troops and supplies directly into horde territory)?
    That "military" base was its own country under Jaina which was built at the same time Orgrimmar and the only reason it was supplying resources into Horde territory was because Garrosh started a war by attacking the Night Elves.

  19. #259
    Herald of the Titans Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    Meanwhile, we can use the "but... but.. Theramore /poutyface" excuse for the better part of 8 years and that's fine (ignoring that it was a military base being used to move our troops and supplies directly into horde territory)?
    What? How does theramore even have a relation in that context?

    If you really wanna dive down that rabbit hole, care to explain what stonetalon peak was? Or did those druids send wild leprechauns or something to mulgore as part of their world conquest?
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    Well what did you expect to happen by playing Horde?
    Are you actually mad organizations like.

    The Kirin Tor
    The Argent Crusade.
    The Cenarion Circle.
    Demon Hunters and Light Forged are all Alliance race themed?

    The Horde simply has weak characters and by god Blizzard had tried.
    First with Cataclysm with Green Jesus.
    Then with Garrosh going back to Orcish roots in both Cata and Mists
    And then going way more back to WoD with garrosh and Horde roots.

    We literally got introduced to all the old Horde villains and their heroes with short videos about their background too.
    Like what more do you want short of taking over these Alliance factions?
    The development of more non-villainous Horde-related factions, obviously. Imagine if there was a nominally neutral but predominately Forsaken faction who everyone would quest for.

    When it comes down to it, WoD was a laughingstock. They literally cut out the bulk of the Orcish story because they felt they had overdone Orcs, which of course was just one further disaster for their Orc expansion. And the whole thing? You slaughter those Orcish heroes, those "Warlords" they wanted to build up as cool characters, and absolutely no one is going to remember or care about them. They were fucking lame.

    What Night Elf fan would enjoy an expansion where you go back in time to murder all the Night Elves?

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