Remember what the Orcs gained from the Siege?

[Grazrug]

To conquer something you need to hold it.
But dont take my word for it.


A raid doesnt mean you conquered it. It means just that. You raided.



The thing is the Horde has lost so little over the years that these people simply do not understand. The had never had a city nuked beyond recognation.
I think the Alliance has at least 2 towns, 1 mini-capital city, one capital city. And whatever happened in Gilneas that made them homeless forever.
The only thing the Horde faction needs now is specific quests for rape and child murder to complete their narrative rather than imply it.

We lost so little? We always had less population, lost our identity twice just because Blizzard felt like it, lost almost all our important characters except for some alliance loving pushovers, and have, minus Thrall, zero overall Protagonist representation in the common/neutral plot. You wanna switch? Alright, you can nuke Bilgewater and Highmountain, in return 70% of your characters die and the Horde becomes the new superpower of Azeroth. Deal?

[Toho]

We lost so little? We always had less population,

Thats a loss? Seriously?

lost our identity twice just because Blizzard felt like it,

If anything you are going back to your roots. Genocide, child murder and rape are hallmarks of being part of the Horde canonically.

lost almost all our important characters except for some alliance loving pushovers, and have, minus Thrall, zero overall Protagonist representation in the common/neutral plot.

Thats not a loss. Its just the faction you picked. Its not our problem you dont care about non-Warcraft 3 characters.

You wanna switch? Alright, you can nuke Bilgewater and Highmountain,

Haha, he says he wants to switch but is still not ready to do a fair trade.
No how about we blow up Silvermoon and kill every blood elf soul there canonically and get a whole campaign from Barrens to Thunderbluff? You can keep Orgrimmar. Being forced to stay in that terrible city is punishment enough.

in return 70% of your characters die and the Horde becomes the new superpower of Azeroth. Deal?

Loool. Nah. Lets go with the Garrosh/Sylvanas dilemma where we blame all of it on the faction leader.
You guys can get a raid on SW, I would get some Human theme loot and replace my terrible Highking with someone else more likable.

[Grazrug]

Thats a loss? Seriously?



If anything you are going back to your roots. Genocide, child murder and rape are hallmarks of being part of the Horde canonically.



Thats not a loss. Its just the faction you picked. Its not our problem you dont care about non-Warcraft 3 characters.



Haha, he says he wants to switch but is still not ready to do a fair trade.
No how about we blow up Silvermoon and kill every blood elf soul there canonically and get a whole campaign from Barrens to Thunderbluff? You can keep Orgrimmar. Being forced to stay in that terrible city is punishment enough.



Loool. Nah. Lets go with the Garrosh/Sylvanas dilemma where we blame all of it on the faction leader.
You guys can get a raid on SW, I would get some Human theme loot and replace my terrible Highking with someone else more likable.

That is totally a fair trade self absorbed blue guy Bilgewater is a mirror for Theramore just like Undercity was a mirror for Darnassus plus the new Zuldazar raid. Give them some bread and they demand the whole bakery. Glad to know the Alliance com hasn't changed.

[Toho]

That is totally a fair trade self absorbed blue guy Bilgewater is a mirror for Theramore just like Undercity was a mirror for Darnassus plus the new Zuldazar raid. Give them some bread and they demand the whole bakery. Glad to know the Alliance com hasn't changed.

Theramore was an entire city with various named characters and a history since WC3 as it became the new home of Lordaeron citizens.
Giving quests since vanilla and being a major transport hub.

Bilgewater is a random harbor, with nothing in it besides empty houses.
Funny how the idea of Silvermoon and its citizens being put the torch is a step too far for horde players!

its alright when the Horde do it to the night elves. But god forbid anything bad happen to the precious horde eye candy.

[Grazrug]

Theramore was an entire city with various named characters and a history since WC3 as it became the new home of Lordaeron citizens.
Giving quests since vanilla and being a major transport hub.

Bilgewater is a random harbor, with nothing in it besides empty houses.
Funny how the idea of Silvermoon and its citizens being put the torch is a step too far for horde players!

its alright when the Horde do it to the night elves. But god forbid anything bad happen to the precious horde eye candy.

Newsflash. Blizzard doesn't touch big cities unless they can torch their mirror too. See Undercity/tirisfal(Plus Zuldazar) and Teldrassil. And Theramore was never a big nor a capital city. Just a harbor city and RP Hub. Just like Bilgewater. Know waht the mirror for Silvermoon is? Exodar and the Draenei Isles.

[KrakHed]

Loool. Nah. Lets go with the Garrosh/Sylvanas dilemma where we blame all of it on the faction leader.
You guys can get a raid on SW, I would get some Human theme loot and replace my terrible Highking with someone else more likable.

Even when you blame it all on the faction leader, other characters die too.

Thats not a loss. Its just the faction you picked. Its not our problem you dont care about non-Warcraft 3 characters.

Nazgrim was never in Warcraft 3. The thing is, Blizzard hasn't built up new characters sufficiently to replace those lost.

See, the Alliance still has Danath, Turalyon, Alleria, Khadgar, Kurdran, and so on. Hell, even Arator is still alive to be a legacy character if he's ever promoted. The Alliance has a healthy cast with a full set of faction leaders, who are appropriately replaced with characters built up for that purpose much of the time. There's so many that there's hardly room to give them all screen time.

Sure, Draenei would be screwed if they lost Velen at their current stage of development, but Night Elves have plenty of characters laying around. Plenty of A tier characters, even, ones who warranted unique models. Who are the stars of novels dedicated to them and came from Warcraft 3.

Likewise, the Humans have some nice A and B tier characters, and plenty of C tier as well. Some from Warcraft 2, 3, or who were built up over the course of WoW with literally having the most models of any character to depict growth from boy, teen, to young man. With novels dedicated to them as main characters.

As for Dwarves? I don't recall a single notable Dwarven character ever dying, even if they're all B-listers. Gnomes are pretty fucked, though. For Worgen, Genn has been firmly established as a solid B character, but the rest are pretty C-class.

So, let's consider the Horde. Not a single legacy character from Warcraft 2 remains, nor do their children. None were redeemed as was hoped. Jorin Deadeye is D-tier at best, and he's the closest we've got to that.

So, let's look at the Orcs, the "Face" of the Horde. They have a decommissioned A-lister, Thrall, and two prominent B characters, Saurfang and Eitrigg, though Saurfang is probably B+ by now. Drek'thar was in a wheelchair last we saw him, but he'd qualify too. Notice a pattern here? There are no young Orcs. Only Orcs about to kick the bucket any day now. Thrall is literally the only prominent green Orc whose hair isn't grey. Orcs have not had their cast restocked, so it's understandable that Orc fans are scared they'll lose what little they have left.

Oh, and what about Trolls? Vol'jin was basically B+. He got a bit of a boost towards the end, but got killed off. The rest is C or D tier. Rokhan was in Warcraft 3, but barely had any lines. I guess he's B tier now.

Tauren have Baine, who I'd still list as B+ at best. The rest are C or D.

Forsaken have Sylvanas, A, Nathanos, B, and a few Cs. Blood Elves have a few Bs.

As such, the Horde's experience is that they don't have characters to spare. None of their races are like Humans or Night Elves, or even Dwarves.

The Horde doesn't like losing characters because the Horde doesn't have any to spare. Orcs are literally all senile old men on their deathbeds by now.

[Toho]

Newsflash. Blizzard doesn't touch big cities unless they can torch their mirror too. See Undercity/tirisfal(Plus Zuldazar) and Teldrassil. And Theramore was never a big nor a capital city. Just a harbor city and RP Hub. Just like Bilgewater. Know waht the mirror for Silvermoon is? Exodar and the Draenei Isles.

rofl. Yeah. sure.
So the Alliance wipes out anyone inside Silvermoon and reduces it to ash.
And Horde come for Exodar... but Velen forsees everything. Grabs his people and artifacts. Gets on the vindicaar and as the Horde soldiers run inside Exodar Velen blows up Exodar as he yells "you have won nothiiiiiiiing" he flies away.

Sounds good to you?

[Grazrug]

Even when you blame it all on the faction leader, other characters die too.

Nazgrim was never in Warcraft 3. The thing is, Blizzard hasn't built up new characters sufficiently to replace those lost.

See, the Alliance still has Danath, Turalyon, Alleria, Khadgar, Kurdran, and so on. Hell, even Arator is still alive to be a legacy character if he's ever promoted. The Alliance has a healthy cast with a full set of faction leaders, who are appropriately replaced with characters built up for that purpose much of the time. There's so many that there's hardly room to give them all screen time.

Sure, Draenei would be screwed if they lost Velen at their current stage of development, but Night Elves have plenty of characters laying around. Plenty of A tier characters, even, ones who warranted unique models. Who are the stars of novels dedicated to them and came from Warcraft 3.

Likewise, the Humans have some nice A and B tier characters, and plenty of C tier as well. Some from Warcraft 2, 3, or who were built up over the course of WoW with literally having the most models of any character to depict growth from boy, teen, to young man. With novels dedicated to them as main characters.

As for Dwarves? I don't recall a single notable Dwarven character ever dying, even if they're all B-listers. Gnomes are pretty fucked, though. For Worgen, Genn has been firmly established as a solid B character, but the rest are pretty C-class.

So, let's consider the Horde. Not a single legacy character from Warcraft 2 remains, nor do their children. None were redeemed as was hoped. Jorin Deadeye is D-tier at best, and he's the closest we've got to that.

So, let's look at the Orcs, the "Face" of the Horde. They have a decommissioned A-lister, Thrall, and two prominent B characters, Saurfang and Eitrigg, though Saurfang is probably B+ by now. Drek'thar was in a wheelchair last we saw him, but he'd qualify too. Notice a pattern here? There are no young Orcs. Only Orcs about to kick the bucket any day now. Thrall is literally the only prominent green Orc whose hair isn't grey. Orcs have not had their cast restocked, so it's understandable that Orc fans are scared they'll lose what little they have left.

Oh, and what about Trolls? Vol'jin was basically B+. He got a bit of a boost towards the end, but got killed off. The rest is C or D tier. Rokhan was in Warcraft 3, but barely had any lines. I guess he's B tier now.

Tauren have Baine, who I'd still list as B+ at best. The rest are C or D.

Forsaken have Sylvanas, A, Nathanos, B, and a few Cs. Blood Elves have a few Bs.

As such, the Horde's experience is that they don't have characters to spare. None of their races are like Humans or Night Elves, or even Dwarves.

The Horde doesn't like losing characters because the Horde doesn't have any to spare. Orcs are literally all senile old men on their deathbeds by now.

This so much. I will avoid topics i the future because this is the perfect argument.

[Toho]

Even when you blame it all on the faction leader, other characters die too.

Nazgrim was never in Warcraft 3. The thing is, Blizzard hasn't built up new characters sufficiently to replace those lost.

Not saying it is not a problem.
But it is not a loss either and it certainly isnt something the Alliance is reponsible for.
Btw Nazgrim is one of the four horsemen now.

And before you complain that he is neutral.
Welcome to the Alliance perspective where every organization is now neutral.

[Overlordd]

Can you give any examples? Why would a rival who supposed has control over your city just leave, not take anything, not disarm you, not destroy anything...

In WW2 after the Allies won, the split Berlin up and then sectioned it off. They kept troops there and took money as reparations. The US did the same thing to Japan. Japan was ordered to do away with their military.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Siege_of_Orgrimmar


https://wow.gamepedia.com/Darkspear_Rebellion


And here is information on the actual sacking of a city:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistoria...ity_is_sacked/

In WC1 Stormwind was sacked. It was burned. Treasure and food taken. SoO was the Alliance joining together with the Horde to defeat the Sha powered mega racist Garrosh and his followers.... want to know a real sacking? Teldrassil/Darnassus. It was burned, plundered, inhabitants were driven out, and civilians killed.


Now that THAT is over...

I ask again, what do you expect to happen after SoO? Should the Horde and specifically Orcs become powerhouses? Should the Horde and the Orcs never take losses?

- - - Updated - - -



That literally happened to Teldrassil.

Maybe if we go by ingame status and not compare it to IRL. Alliance conquered Orgrimmar. Horde rebels liberated it.

[KrakHed]

Not saying it is not a problem.
But it is not a loss either and it certainly isnt something the Alliance is reponsible for.
Btw Nazgrim is one of the four horsemen now.

And before you complain that he is neutral.
Welcome to the Alliance perspective where every organization is now neutral.

He's neutral, sure, but he was always just a B character and will be overshadowed by Bolvar and all the other Horsemen in Ebon Blade content. The themes he's bound to throw around are Ebon Blade themes. Scourge themes, Deathknight themes.

Meanwhile, the Cenarion Circle and Argents wave their Night Elf and Human themes in your face like a flaccid penis. Sure, the Horde got a taste of this in the form of Thrall before, and we hated how he did nothing to clean up the messes he left behind. We all came out hating the incredibly irresponsible "Go'el". Neutrality sucks in characters. It's frustrating.

Thing is, a living major character could potentially come back. Alleria and Turalyon being neutral for a bit didn't prevent them from rejoining the Alliance immediately. Neither did Malfurion's neutrality. It still sucks. Thrall is a depressed sadsack now though, and that sucks even more.

[Toho]

He's neutral, sure, but he was always just a B character and will be overshadowed by Bolvar and all the other Horsemen in Ebon Blade content. The themes he's bound to throw around are Ebon Blade themes. Scourge themes, Deathknight themes.

Meanwhile, the Cenarion Circle and Argents wave their Night Elf and Human themes in your face like a flaccid penis. Sure, the Horde got a taste of this in the form of Thrall before, and we hated how he did nothing to clean up the messes he left behind. We all came out hating the incredibly irresponsible "Go'el". Neutrality sucks in characters. It's frustrating.

Thing is, a living major character could potentially come back. Alleria and Turalyon being neutral for a bit didn't prevent them from rejoining the Alliance immediately. Neither did Malfurion's neutrality. It still sucks. Thrall is a depressed sadsack now though, and that sucks even more.

Well what did you expect to happen by playing Horde?
Are you actually mad organizations like.

The Kirin Tor
The Argent Crusade.
The Cenarion Circle.
Demon Hunters and Light Forged are all Alliance race themed?

The Horde simply has weak characters and by god Blizzard had tried.
First with Cataclysm with Green Jesus.
Then with Garrosh going back to Orcish roots in both Cata and Mists
And then going way more back to WoD with garrosh and Horde roots.

We literally got introduced to all the old Horde villains and their heroes with short videos about their background too.
Like what more do you want short of taking over these Alliance factions?

[Grazrug]

Well what did you expect to happen by playing Horde?
Are you actually mad organizations like.

The Kirin Tor
The Argent Crusade.
The Cenarion Circle.
Demon Hunters and Light Forged are all Alliance race themed?

The Horde simply has weak characters and by god Blizzard had tried.
First with Cataclysm with Green Jesus.
Then with Garrosh going back to Orcish roots in both Cata and Mists
And then going way more back to WoD with garrosh and Horde roots.

We literally got introduced to all the old Horde villains and their heroes with short videos about their background too.
Like what more do you want short of taking over these Alliance factions?

They didn't try. They slaughtered or deleted them. That's not trying thats a meat grinder. AU Durotan was the last nail in the coffin.

[Toho]

They didn't try. They slaughtered or deleted them. That's not trying thats a meat grinder. AU Durotan was the last nail in the coffin.

Welcome to how Blizzard develops stories and characters.
They always get slaughtered.

[BaumanKing]

Orcs regained their lost honor from the Siege.

[Syegfryed]

Most of what you say is head canon.

then proof so, i already posts que ingame quote about the case,a nd you are just going REEE

It factually wasn't a sacking.

it is stated ingame that the city was sacked, you canno't say the game and his lore is wrong

The Alliance helped the Horde rebels retake Org.

And also sacked the city, and let the city for the horde with varian's mercy

The Horde PCs are on the side of the rebels. Logically, the Alliance did not conquer the Horde.

Yeah the tittle of "conquer of orgrimamr its totally false

you guys are hilarious

It seems like it only counts when people want to whine.

Again, already showed to you that both cases are not the same, you can put your fingers in your ears and pretend that context don't exist.

- - - Updated - - -

To conquer something you need to hold it.
But dont take my word for it.

not a single thing said you must hold it, LMAO what a bullshit

you can conquer it and then let it go

A raid doesnt mean you conquered it. It means just that. You raided.

just because you think it was not what happen, is what happened, the tittle alone deliberate prove you are wrong

If anything you are going back to your roots. Genocide, child murder and rape are hallmarks of being part of the Horde canonically.

thats rich, pure gold

[quote]
Thats not a loss. Its just the faction you picked. Its not our problem you dont care about non-Warcraft 3 characters.

i will use this for now everytime the alliance whine again "its your problem because you picked the self-righetous good gus" will be fun

You can keep Orgrimmar. Being forced to stay in that terrible city is punishment enough.

your salty levels are hilarious

[Toho]

Orcs regained their lost honor from the Siege.

I think they were supposed to but once again they went down a road of slaughter, rape and genocide.
How many times are we supposed to blame one leader for the crimes of many?

[AcidicSyn]

I get and am not offering argument in any direction regarding the orcs or the state of their honor at present.

I am simply curious: Slaughter, genocide (arguably just leveled-up slaughter), morals that do not match those of IRL humans, all true.

But where is everyone getting rape from? Keep seeing suggestions that the Horde returned to raping? I just started my playthrough on my Alliance alt for BFA; is there a particularly effed up quest chain incoming?

[Saverem]

Besides Garrosh They lost:


The Kor'kron, Evil and gone forever

Warsong Clan, Evil and gone forever

Dragonmaw Clan, Evil and gone forever

Zaela, Evil and gone forever

Shokia, Evil and gone forever

Nazgrim, Sided with Garrosh and gone from the Horde forever

The idea of Orcs moving on from the past, gone forever

The idea of Orcs being family with Tauren and Trolls, gone Forever

Orcs having a racial leader, gone forever

Orcs being anything but evil cannon fodder, gone forever.


Now with Battle for Azeroth, more races of the Horde can join orcs on the evil cannon fodder team.

You're throwing all Orcs in the same bandwagon. By that logic we can put all Humans in that evil bandwagon when Arthas chose to become TLK and slay thousands. Draeneis have Archimonde and KJ, they are evil! NELFs have Illidan and Xavius. Even the gentle Taurens had Magetha.

Just because a particular character(s) of a certain race behaves a certain way, it doesn't make the entire race evil.


True Orcs still put HONOR above all else. Look to Saurfang as the representation of what a true Orc ideology is.

[Magnagarde]

snip

A L M O S T E V E R Y T H I N G.

Yeah definitely. Almost everything in WoW is based on a conspiracy to make men less violent.

Inbetween all of what you wrote, this highlights your inability to read what I actually wrote.

Nobody mentioned a conspiracy. I mentioned a socio-political trend. The two are the diametrically opposite by definition. Conspiracies are, by default, dealing with things that are supposedly kept in the dark. Socio-political trends are out in the open and have a varying degree of public support in a part of the population. What I am talking about is a socio-political trend. And yes, it definitely regards A L M O S T E V E R Y T H I N G.

Starting from a "Muh Stronk Wahmen" 2018 Blizzard panel, which was graced with the longest streak of repeated "Look at these amazing women!" lines and demands for the audience to unorganically clap and cheer and all the way to the fact that most of the newly-made leadership positions have been given to completely new female characters (Mayla for all of Highmountain, Fareeya for the Lighforged, Alleria for the void elves, Thalyssra for the Nightborne, Talanji for the Zandalari, Katherine Proudmoore for Kul Tiras, Calia Menethil for some new lightforged undead spooks that are more likely to happen than not and a "female" Naaru which is supposedly the Prime Naaru for every single other Naaru out there). If not that, then well-known female characters of the franchise have been given a leadership role where they previously had none, as if it wasn't enough to introduce agenda-driven female characters to begin with, but they had to take a shot at some of the community's fan favourites too (Sylvanas and the Horde, Alleria and the void elves). Hell, they have to shove Lliadrin down a Horde player's monitor every single time too. The only female character that got there organically, through proper storytelling and no asspulls, is Moira.

You then also have personal opinions of Golden, posted on her Twitter, that directly relate to the story she's telling with the characters she writes, especially Anduin, which allign with most of the popular SJW and snowflake positions. Hell, it makes it look like Golden directed the last Gillette advert too. Games are to be played for the gaming experience and stories are told for the worth of storytelling that they have, not for lessons on a trend in sociology or one that regards genders.

You throw examples at me about characters that were established long before virtue signalling, snowflaking and political correctness were ever a thing and before it ruined their stories. I am pointing out the obvious changes in storytelling and how Blizzard is handling it ever since the snowflakes stopped melting and started falling through the Springs and Summers of 2010 and onward. I am not expecting you to understand something you can't affiliate with and that's keeping gaming out of the socio-political agendas of a bunch of writers, who keep pilling up self-inserted sociological views of our real world onto the stories they write.

What makes this a thousand times worse is that Warcraft has always had well-established female characters and WoW itself has always attracted female gamers. There is absolutely no need for any of this.