What if there's a rebellion but...

[Justpassing]

... it fails? Sylvanas goes completely unhinged: Factions unite and a couple more expansions are sorted. I can't see any downside to this, can you?

[Mehrunes]

Why would the factions unite if Sylvanas won the Horde civil war? With Blizzard's bulldozer approach to nuanced storytelling and their binary morality, the only way Sylvanas could win a hypothetical civil war would be if she was the good person all along. But that would require Baine and Saurfang to be wrong, which doesn't seem the case. Instead we're let to believe their ways of Alliance sycophancy is what the Horde is really about and the lesson we should have learned in MoP.

[Grazrug]

Why would the factions unite if Sylvanas won the Horde civil war? With Blizzard's bulldozer approach to nuanced storytelling and their binary morality, the only way Sylvanas could win a hypothetical civil war would be if she was the good person all along. But that would require Baine and Saurfang to be wrong, which doesn't seem the case. Instead we're let to believe their ways of Alliance sycophancy is what the Horde is really about and the lesson we should have learned in MoP.

Sad story but true. Sulking up to humans and getting cast aside with zero stuff left to identify yourself with is the way Blizzard sets the story. And there are enough idiots, mostly youtube contant creators and bootlickers, who are even praising Blizzard for this awful writing.

[Fullmetal89]

mostly youtube contant creators and bootlickers, who are even praising Blizzard for this awful writing.

Blizzard needs its echo chamber so it can point to those people and say "see a lot of fans like what we are doing." Unfortunately that doesn't translate into sub numbers. They will as usual double down on this clusterfuck of lore that started with the aftermath of killing Arthas while not having a well thought out direction of how to proceed forward with the story.

[matrix123mko]

... it fails? Sylvanas goes completely unhinged: Factions unite and a couple more expansions are sorted. I can't see any downside to this, can you?

Additionally, the war doesn't have to end. I can imagine BfA ending with Sylvanas making a short term pact with Anduin to kill N'zoth and then start smaller wars later, like in WotLK.

- - - Updated - - -

Why would the factions unite if Sylvanas won the Horde civil war? With Blizzard's bulldozer approach to nuanced storytelling and their binary morality, the only way Sylvanas could win a hypothetical civil war would be if she was the good person all along. But that would require Baine and Saurfang to be wrong, which doesn't seem the case. Instead we're let to believe their ways of Alliance sycophancy is what the Horde is really about and the lesson we should have learned in MoP.

It's fan service. Most of players need to be feel innocent to enjoy the story. They can't do anything that is morally questionable, but good overall.

[Caerule]

This is just going to devolve into another "WoW lore sucks" thread, so I am not too motivated to get into this. But...

Well, the concept laid out in the opening post is actually an interesting one.

I mean, Saurfang wants to get rid of Sylvanas, but so far he's just barely escaped imprisonment, and if both versions of the story are true, then Sylvanas already knows his ally Zekhan is a traitor. So Saurfang's Rebellion isn't exactly in a good state right now.

Then we have Baine. At his first act of defiance, he gets caught, gets his co-conspirator killed, and is imprisoned. So much for Baine's Rebellion.

Who does that leave that could lead a successful rebellion within the Horde? Geya'rah, First Arcanist Thalyssra and Maya Highmountain only just joined. None of those holds the required authority and influence to kick off a Rebellion. So who does that leave? Well, there's Gallywix. That's not it. Frankly there are only two remaining options.

Lor'themar Theron. He seems to see the Horde's on dead end path. The combined might of the Sin'dorei leadership could probably take on Sylvanas. We could be looking at a Lor'themar Rebellion. He'd be tougher for Sylvanas to lock away. He has Halduron, Liadrin, Grand Magister Rommath, and Thalyssra closely on his side.

Still, Sylvanas is cunning, powerful, and has the loyalty of many. Could Lor'themar get the Goblins and Orcs on his side? Or would the Warchief stand victorious with the Horde in an iron grasp? Lor'themar is not the perfect candidate. We may be looking at a victory for Sylvanas. A dictator in charge of the Death Horde.

There is one person that could emerge to challenge her though. The Original Warchief of the New Horde. If Thrall emerges to challenge Sylvanas... I think Thrall's Rebellion could win.

That's my perspective on it anyway. I think the concept of a Sylvanas Victorious situation could be something that might actually happens. I only see Lor'themar and Thrall. as leaders that could stand strong against Sylvanas right now.

[Aurabolt]

This is just going to devolve into another "WoW lore sucks" thread, so I am not too motivated to get into this. But...

Well, the concept laid out in the opening post is actually an interesting one.

I mean, Saurfang wants to get rid of Sylvanas, but so far he's just barely escaped imprisonment, and if both versions of the story are true, then Sylvanas already knows his ally Zekhan is a traitor. So Saurfang's Rebellion isn't exactly in a good state right now.

Then we have Baine. At his first act of defiance, he gets caught, gets his co-conspirator killed, and is imprisoned. So much for Baine's Rebellion.

Who does that leave that could lead a successful rebellion within the Horde? Geya'rah, First Arcanist Thalyssra and Maya Highmountain only just joined. None of those holds the required authority and influence to kick off a Rebellion. So who does that leave? Well, there's Gallywix. That's not it. Frankly there are only two remaining options.

Lor'themar Theron. He seems to see the Horde's on dead end path. The combined might of the Sin'dorei leadership could probably take on Sylvanas. We could be looking at a Lor'themar Rebellion. He'd be tougher for Sylvanas to lock away. He has Halduron, Liadrin, Grand Magister Rommath, and Thalyssra closely on his side.

Still, Sylvanas is cunning, powerful, and has the loyalty of many. Could Lor'themar get the Goblins and Orcs on his side? Or would the Warchief stand victorious with the Horde in an iron grasp? Lor'themar is not the perfect candidate. We may be looking at a victory for Sylvanas. A dictator in charge of the Death Horde.

There is one person that could emerge to challenge her though. The Original Warchief of the New Horde. If Thrall emerges to challenge Sylvanas... I think Thrall's Rebellion could win.

That's my perspective on it anyway. I think the concept of a Sylvanas Victorious situation could be something that might actually happens. I only see Lor'themar and Thrall. as leaders that could stand strong against Sylvanas right now.

You conveniently left out Talanji. Why?

[Caerule]

You conveniently left out Talanji. Why?

Eh, nothing convenient about it. I forgot to take her into account, because the Zandalari aren't with the Horde just yet. My bad. I'd be happy to analyse her for this.

Honestly though, I can't see her rebelling. She is only just stepping up as the leader of her people. And the Horde saved her people from annihilation in lots of ways.
In upcoming content she even seems to feel the Horde might not even wish for the Zandalari to join anymore, now that the fleet is destroyed. And despite Bwonsamdi wanting Sylvanas' head, she refuses that outright.
Adding to that that she has her own reasons to seek vengeance on the Alliance now...

So, she's new, on a quest for vengeance, and very grateful to Sylvanas' Horde. I just don't see her leading a Rebellion that unites the Horde against Sylvanas.

[GreenJesus]

You conveniently left out Talanji. Why?

Talanji isn't even officially Horde yet until the day 8.1.5 hits and blizzard presses the zandalari allied race button. Do you think someone that literally just joined has the authority to lead a rebellion?

[Dastreus]

Maybe Sylvanas looses her shit even further, and just Blights the Horde, raising them as undead. BAM. Scourge Horde.

[Grazrug]

Eh, nothing convenient about it. I forgot to take her into account, because the Zandalari aren't with the Horde just yet. My bad. I'd be happy to analyse her for this.

Honestly though, I can't see her rebelling. She is only just stepping up as the leader of her people. And the Horde saved her people from annihilation in lots of ways.
In upcoming content she even seems to feel the Horde might not even wish for the Zandalari to join anymore, now that the fleet is destroyed. And despite Bwonsamdi wanting Sylvanas' head, she refuses that outright.
Adding to that that she has her own reasons to seek vengeance on the Alliance now...

So, she's new, on a quest for vengeance, and very grateful to Sylvanas' Horde. I just don't see her leading a Rebellion that unites the Horde against Sylvanas.

If I was sylvanas I would have done exactly that. Dropping the zandalari on the spot. They are too stupid to handle their own problems right and lost the fleet for also being to stupid for checking them up once in a while. It's a miracle that they survived for so long under Rastakhan up until now. They don't deserve being protected the horde.

[Caerule]

If I was sylvanas I would have done exactly that. Dropping the zandalari on the spot. They are too stupid to handle their own problems right and lost the fleet for also being to stupid for checking them up once in a while. It's a miracle that they survived for so long under Rastakhan up until now. They don't deserve being protected the horde.

To be fair, the Horde invested a lot of effort and costs into befriending them. The main benefit is gone, sure. But you gotta get your costs back somehow. There's little left on Zandalar that could draw the Alliance back to that continent for now. And now that they need the Horde more than we need them, they are likely to be loyal. So you don't really win anything by pulling out, and you gain resources, soldiers and a staging ground with harbor not too far from the Eastern Kingdoms out of the deal. Also, all of the leaders that make dumb or treasonous decisions just got killed off. Honestly still letting them within the Horde is probably a net benefit. Either way, it's not a loss.

[Wildberry]

... it fails? Sylvanas goes completely unhinged: Factions unite and a couple more expansions are sorted. I can't see any downside to this, can you?

Yeah. Primarily, the fact that I won't even have a middle man between me and Anduin Wrynn. Never mind the fact that the literal foundation of Warcraft wouldn't exist anymore.

[Grazrug]

To be fair, the Horde invested a lot of effort and costs into befriending them. The main benefit is gone, sure. But you gotta get your costs back somehow. There's little left on Zandalar that could draw the Alliance back to that continent for now. And now that they need the Horde more than we need them, they are likely to be loyal. So you don't really win anything by pulling out, and you gain resources, soldiers and a staging ground with harbor not too far from the Eastern Kingdoms out of the deal. Also, all of the leaders that make dumb or treasonous decisions just got killed off. Honestly still letting them within the Horde is probably a net benefit. Either way, it's not a loss.

They have soldiers? So have the Forsaken. They have air units? So do the highmountain Tauren. They have magic? Boi you know about our elves right? They bring nothing to the table that is good enough to ally up with them. if sylvanas would act in character here, she would have dropped them without further questions. Leaving their already dying kingdom off to their own fate. Only reason why they still gonna implemented are gameplay reasons. We don't need the zandalari for the stuff we would already do anyways. Ships are gone. Alliance over. At least Rastakhan can now stop demanding stuff from us without giving back anything in return. Arrogant prick.

[etheldald]

i seriously doubt it,blizzard spend literally millions of dollars in 2 CGI cinematics about sadfang.

my prediction is that sylvanas will be forced to step down from being warchief, and probably flee to somewhere else, either shadowlands or northrend.

i really don't see how this is going to end well for anyone.

[Kwento]

You conveniently left out Talanji. Why?

Even when she “joins” the Horde, she wouldn’t be a true member of that faction. Her deal with Sylvanas makes Zandalari Empire an equal to the Horde, a true ally, but not a member.
She isn’t in a position to gather anyone but her own people for something like that. And I doubt anyone but members of her empire would follow even if she tried, save for maybe Darkspears, but that’s debatable...

[Justpassing]

Yeah. Primarily, the fact that I won't even have a middle man between me and Anduin Wrynn. Never mind the fact that the literal foundation of Warcraft wouldn't exist anymore.

BfA is the literal foundation of Warcraft as one would put it. Horde versus Alliance, all out war with nothing held back and all of you are screeching bad writing bad writing. I'd hate to break this to you but this is as good as it gets. WoW's never been an epitome of good storytelling, what did you expect? Yeah let's have another BfA after this. "Horde hasn't learned their lesson again so we're gonna do it again xd", I'm sure that'll go great.

If everyone thrashing about the writing had any clue about how stories or writing works they'd understand that the stories have to evolve - for better or for worse. Right now it's on the worse side but we don't know how things will even end. We're pretty much 1/3 into a book and everyone's "well if smells like shit it's probably shit xddd", the story could make a comeback. I don't count on it myself but drop the bad writing wow sucks agenda already and try to enjoy what we got (Unless you're unsubbed but then what are you doing here discussing shitty lore of a game you don't even play anymore)

And that Wrynn comment, lol. You think you're an orc real life, don't you?

[Super Dickmann]

BfA is the literal foundation of Warcraft as one would put it. Horde versus Alliance, all out war with nothing held back and all of you are screeching bad writing bad writing. I'd hate to break this to you but this is as good as it gets. WoW's never been an epitome of good storytelling, what did you expect? Yeah let's have another BfA after this. "Horde hasn't learned their lesson again so we're gonna do it again xd", I'm sure that'll go great.

I'd love to know how you got the impression that the foundation of the franchise is one side failing at every turn, then turning on itself over retarded ideological bullshit and ultimately becoming the other with a red coat of paint on it. The pretensions towards this being good storytelling is what kills it, not being pulp fantasy. If it embraced that it was pulp and we were just bashing all the toys we'd gathered over fifteen years together, like how the Battle for Dazar'alor or the Gallywix quests work in isolation, you'd have much less uproar than you do now. The reason the story fails is because it tries to moralize in a setting that's completely unsuited for it rather than playing to its strengths.

There was no Orc mission in Warcraft 2 where the narrator told me about how dishonorable it was that I used Death Knights in the previous mission and I should feel bad. Or a Human one where after beating the enemy I have to gift them all my resources and tell them they were good boys because otherwise they'd be sad. It knew what it was. BFA doesn't.

[lagiacrux]

They have soldiers? So have the Forsaken. They have air units? So do the highmountain Tauren. They have magic? Boi you know about our elves right? They bring nothing to the table that is good enough to ally up with them. if sylvanas would act in character here, she would have dropped them without further questions. Leaving their already dying kingdom off to their own fate. Only reason why they still gonna implemented are gameplay reasons. We don't need the zandalari for the stuff we would already do anyways. Ships are gone. Alliance over. At least Rastakhan can now stop demanding stuff from us without giving back anything in return. Arrogant prick.

i think you are severly underestimating the importance of zandalar as a geographical location. even without ships having a harbor that close to alliance allies and the eastern kingdom is of utter importance.
secondly, even if their fleet is destroyed, the horde desperatly needs allies with experience in naval warfare. no horde race has any extended knowledge in that part. with the kul tirans officially joining the alliance you would yield marine supremacy everywhere to the alliance. ships can be rebuilt.

[Justpassing]

I'd love to know how you got the impression that the foundation of the franchise is one side failing at every turn, then turning on itself over retarded ideological bullshit and ultimately becoming the other with a red coat of paint on it. The pretensions towards this being good storytelling is what kills it, not being pulp fantasy. If it embraced that it was pulp and we were just bashing all the toys we'd gathered over fifteen years together, like how the Battle for Dazar'alor or the Gallywix quests work in isolation, you'd have much less uproar than you do now. The reason the story fails is because it tries to moralize in a setting that's completely unsuited for it rather than playing to its strengths.

There was no Orc mission in Warcraft 2 where the narrator told me about how dishonorable it was that I used Death Knights in the previous mission and I should feel bad. Or a Human one where after beating the enemy I have to gift them all my resources and tell them they were good boys because otherwise they'd be sad. It knew what it was. BFA doesn't.

The foundation is Horde vs. Alliance. How that story unfolds is your problem. But you knew that already but you wanted to take another whack at it, good job man. You really told those writers!