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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    they are shaldorei.

    the true kaldorei doesn't exist today
    Azshara is true kaldorei.
    I give my flesh and blood freely to the Warchief. I am the instrument of my Warchief's desire. I am a weapon of my Warchief's command.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread

  2. #22
    The Insane Aeula's Avatar
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    They're closest to the original Kaldorei, but worlds apart from modern Kaldorei.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    In the days before the ascent of the Highborne and Azshara the Night Elves seemed to embrace both the Arcane and the natural world in more or less equal measure - they revered the night, moon, and the stars by virtue of being a nocturnal people, informed by a general veneration for Elune and her associated motifs (even equating the Well of Eternity with her place of origin in some myths). Over time the Arcane seemed to become a larger and more important aspect of their civilization as magical technology and science spread, eclipsing and undercutting the more naturalistic aspects of the society represented by individuals such as Malfurion and Valewalker Farodin's order. Following the War of the Ancients and the Sundering they turned their backs on the Arcane and fully re-embraced the two remaining pillars of their society: the Priesthood of Elune and the rediscovered naturalistic path taking the form of Malfurion's exploration into Druidism.

    Suramar has many of the motifs of the ancient Kaldorei because it is itself an ancient Kaldorei city, and the bulk of the city remains underneath further expansion and refinement by those who would become the Shal'dorei in time. Of course, they've stamped the city with their own unique imprimatur as well - as lacy Arcane affectations and physically impossible engineering litter the city and its environs. The Shal'dorei still retain a focus on the Stars and the Night, but their approach is magical instead of spiritual, everything is viewed through the lens of the Arcane fixation which predominates their society.

    If there was a progression from a focus on nature to the Arcane I would imagine it would roughly be:

    Kaldorei >> Farondin's people > Moonguard > Shen'drelar > Quel'dorei > Shal'dorei
    I mostly agree, with a couple of exceptions. Firstly, I don't think the physical appearance or magic in the city is a shal'dorei imprint, it is a picture of the kaldorei empire city. What i think people keep forgetting is that the KAldorei were and did incredible things in that era, and I believe what you see of Suramar is showing you an example of the heights the kaldorei reached. Must bear in mind, that the shal'dorei are not something new, but just a continuation of the kaldorei in an exclusive arcane direction. The drift that started going wholeheartedly to the arcane by the time of the first invasion continues. And we see this group develop in that area.

    The buildings and strucutres are unchanged being in a fixed space, and not needing to. THe culture is also unchanged, preserving an image of kaldorei society just before the sundering pristinely. The magic has come along however as they have continued advancing, not just in the arcane, (whose progress is noted but also shown to be much slower than in pre-sundering times), but also in chronomancy. Structurally, I think the only thing these night elves have added since becoming shal'dorei are a few statues - there is very little you can add or willing to add in a bubble with finite space and resource, especially when you are notorious for being sticklers to your traditions and ways.

    I'm not sure what you mean about focus on nature to the arcane if you would elaborated.


    And let me note, that it would be exciting to see the 3rd pillar of Kaldorei society, the arcane, fully restored amongst the playable night elf group.. Having the 3 pillars, arcane, nature and Elune at their pinnacle exxhibits the best of the Kaldorei. And we cannot forget that this group is supposed to be the core and original identity of the race. It certainly has the expertise to restore this pillar to its full height with the shen'dralar and Farondis around and they have much better manners and sense than their fellow highborne at the Palace in Zin'Azsashari at the time of the sundering - only thing lacking is the well of eternity power. Would be very nice to see the kaldorei themselves in their amazing cities and nice to have that distinct and separate from their druidic forest dwellings, giving you a bit of variation. They are suppposed to be a massive people of great diversity. Why some people expect them only to live in caves, or trees with that sort of history and expertise to spice em up, is beyond me and certainly an opportunity that blizzard shouldn't allow to go to waste to further develop and progress this race.

    When you think of it, we've had most of the past 14 years showing the druidic side of night elves, their is so much more in the Elune and Arcane side to show and develop, before you even go to the demon hunters, which have a lot of potential too.

    Then there are the martial orders like the Wardens, the Moonguard, the Sentinels, demon hunters (as an order this time), that have a lot to offer.

    I hope we will get to see more of the arcane side the books were speaking about, the kaldorei may have lost Suramar when their sub-race went horde (at least for now), but they have Zin'Azshari and host of other pre-sundering cities to draw from.

  4. #24
    Living in the trees you see alot more stars than living in stone buildings underneath a bubble.

  5. #25
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I mostly agree, with a couple of exceptions. Firstly, I don't think the physical appearance or magic in the city is a shal'dorei imprint, it is a picture of the kaldorei empire city. What i think people keep forgetting is that the KAldorei were and did incredible things in that era, and I believe what you see of Suramar is showing you an example of the heights the kaldorei reached. Must bear in mind, that the shal'dorei are not something new, but just a continuation of the kaldorei in an exclusive arcane direction. The drift that started going wholeheartedly to the arcane by the time of the first invasion continues. And we see this group develop in that area.

    The buildings and strucutres are unchanged being in a fixed space, and not needing to. THe culture is also unchanged, preserving an image of kaldorei society just before the sundering pristinely. The magic has come along however as they have continued advancing, not just in the arcane, (whose progress is noted but also shown to be much slower than in pre-sundering times), but also in chronomancy. Structurally, I think the only thing these night elves have added since becoming shal'dorei are a few statues - there is very little you can add or willing to add in a bubble with finite space and resource, especially when you are notorious for being sticklers to your traditions and ways.
    Sorry for the delay, I got caught up in something of an info deluge and missed out on this reply. The "Shal'dorei imprint" I'm referring is their specific style separate from the Ancient Night Elves we've seen or that have been described to us. I think the remaining Moon Guard NPC's would probably be the most recent and easily visible comparisons - their citadel in Suramar and their general look and aesthetic aren't like the Nightborne from Suramar City at all. The Highborne Kaldorei and the Moon Guard favor ostentatious robes said to be in a rather tasteless clash of colors (to modern eyes one supposes), Lothrius Mooncaller and his ilk seem more like regular Night Elves in caster's robes, and their citadel (untouched from ancient times) are towers of ivory-like stone and teal crowns, preferring arcs and crescent motifs of what seems like brass or perhaps gold inlays. The Nightborne, by contrast, make extensive use of glass and/or arcane latticework in their architecture, and similarly their clothing glows with Arcane runes, etchings, and even elaborate motifs such as trees, feathers, or halo-like esoteric diagrams. There's a sense of grandeur and grandiosity beyond even the Highborne on that scale, and this is reflected in the unique design of Suramar City - which I imagine looked a lot more like what we see of the Moon Guard Stronghold or the structures around the Well of Eternity (in the WoE Cata instance) 10,000+ years ago. Tyrande herself remarks how foreign to her the people of Suramar are and she doesn't recognize them despite having lived in Suramar City in her youth. The Nightborne, and the city of Tyrande's youth, have been transformed with the passage of those many years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean about focus on nature to the arcane if you would elaborated.
    I mean that is seems like the ancient Kaldorei first revered nature and the Arcane roughly equal - but over time, and with mastery of the energies of the Well, the emphasis on the Arcane began to eclipse the emphasis on the reverence of nature. By Malfurion's time the path that would lead to Druidism was considered "quaint" and decidedly of lesser worth than a place among the Highborne or the Moon Guard. After the War of the Ancients and following the Sundering Kaldorei society changed pretty swiftly - the legacy of Azshara and her dealing with the Legion tainting the view of the Arcane, and so the society re-embraced its former reverence for nature and the new path of the Druid while eschewing the Arcane entirely, eventually exiling those remaining Highborne who wouldn't give it up. It wouldn't be until the return of the Shen'dralar to the fold (and recognition for the need of their old Arcane skills) in Cata that the status quo was changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    And let me note, that it would be exciting to see the 3rd pillar of Kaldorei society, the arcane, fully restored amongst the playable night elf group.. Having the 3 pillars, arcane, nature and Elune at their pinnacle exxhibits the best of the Kaldorei. And we cannot forget that this group is supposed to be the core and original identity of the race. It certainly has the expertise to restore this pillar to its full height with the shen'dralar and Farondis around and they have much better manners and sense than their fellow highborne at the Palace in Zin'Azsashari at the time of the sundering - only thing lacking is the well of eternity power. Would be very nice to see the kaldorei themselves in their amazing cities and nice to have that distinct and separate from their druidic forest dwellings, giving you a bit of variation. They are suppposed to be a massive people of great diversity. Why some people expect them only to live in caves, or trees with that sort of history and expertise to spice em up, is beyond me and certainly an opportunity that blizzard shouldn't allow to go to waste to further develop and progress this race.
    I think that's really only a matter of time, although it may not return to the prominence it had under Azshara and the Highborne (and probably shouldn't, given the givens).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    When you think of it, we've had most of the past 14 years showing the druidic side of night elves, their is so much more in the Elune and Arcane side to show and develop, before you even go to the demon hunters, which have a lot of potential too.

    Then there are the martial orders like the Wardens, the Moonguard, the Sentinels, demon hunters (as an order this time), that have a lot to offer.

    I hope we will get to see more of the arcane side the books were speaking about, the kaldorei may have lost Suramar when their sub-race went horde (at least for now), but they have Zin'Azshari and host of other pre-sundering cities to draw from.
    Personally, I would like to see Eldre'Thalas returned to glory - a new citadel for Night Elves who wish to explore their Arcane heritage more fully, perhaps in conjunction with the Druids who can assist in the effort and perhaps even aid them with gifts like arcan'dor and other fusions of the Arcane and Druidic magic. There's a lot to show that the pillars of Kaldorei culture don't have to be separate of one-another - and perhaps even more fundamental advances in both Arcane and Druidic magic can be made if their knowledge and wisdom are combined in the proper light.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - The Player, "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead"

  6. #26
    i don't think there is a true kaldorei society that still exists.

    the original kaldorei society is harmony of worship of elune, respect for nature, and mastery of arcane magic. this is how it was from dark troll -> kaldorei

    then it diverged, high kaldorei society became aloof, became more faithless, lost respect for nature. while the rest of society moved more towards nature and elune. so the society had a split in a for a long time, true kaldorei society stopped existing when that happened.

    so nightborne are a remnant of true high kaldorei society, somewhat. while kaldorei are still what the hicks of society were in the old days, religious and nature worshiping.

  7. #27
    Pandaren Monk UnluckyAmateur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillyth View Post
    No, they're just cowards and have nothing in common with the Kaldorei any longer.
    Just like the blood elves they've buddied up with.

    Junkies always stick together.

  8. #28
    The Lightbringer Kyphael's Avatar
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    Definitely the more interesting version over the passive tree-hugging iteration of Night Elves we've gotten since Classic.

  9. #29
    They are technically still the same race. Unlike modern Kaldorei they kept practicing the old culture of the Highborne. That's it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I mostly agree, with a couple of exceptions. Firstly, I don't think the physical appearance or magic in the city is a shal'dorei imprint, it is a picture of the kaldorei empire city. What i think people keep forgetting is that the KAldorei were and did incredible things in that era, and I believe what you see of Suramar is showing you an example of the heights the kaldorei reached. Must bear in mind, that the shal'dorei are not something new, but just a continuation of the kaldorei in an exclusive arcane direction. The drift that started going wholeheartedly to the arcane by the time of the first invasion continues. And we see this group develop in that area.

    The buildings and strucutres are unchanged being in a fixed space, and not needing to. THe culture is also unchanged, preserving an image of kaldorei society just before the sundering pristinely. The magic has come along however as they have continued advancing, not just in the arcane, (whose progress is noted but also shown to be much slower than in pre-sundering times), but also in chronomancy. Structurally, I think the only thing these night elves have added since becoming shal'dorei are a few statues - there is very little you can add or willing to add in a bubble with finite space and resource, especially when you are notorious for being sticklers to your traditions and ways.

    I'm not sure what you mean about focus on nature to the arcane if you would elaborated.


    And let me note, that it would be exciting to see the 3rd pillar of Kaldorei society, the arcane, fully restored amongst the playable night elf group.. Having the 3 pillars, arcane, nature and Elune at their pinnacle exxhibits the best of the Kaldorei. And we cannot forget that this group is supposed to be the core and original identity of the race. It certainly has the expertise to restore this pillar to its full height with the shen'dralar and Farondis around and they have much better manners and sense than their fellow highborne at the Palace in Zin'Azsashari at the time of the sundering - only thing lacking is the well of eternity power. Would be very nice to see the kaldorei themselves in their amazing cities and nice to have that distinct and separate from their druidic forest dwellings, giving you a bit of variation. They are suppposed to be a massive people of great diversity. Why some people expect them only to live in caves, or trees with that sort of history and expertise to spice em up, is beyond me and certainly an opportunity that blizzard shouldn't allow to go to waste to further develop and progress this race.

    When you think of it, we've had most of the past 14 years showing the druidic side of night elves, their is so much more in the Elune and Arcane side to show and develop, before you even go to the demon hunters, which have a lot of potential too.

    Then there are the martial orders like the Wardens, the Moonguard, the Sentinels, demon hunters (as an order this time), that have a lot to offer.

    I hope we will get to see more of the arcane side the books were speaking about, the kaldorei may have lost Suramar when their sub-race went horde (at least for now), but they have Zin'Azshari and host of other pre-sundering cities to draw from.
    Mate you need to stop with the text walls.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Sorry for the delay, I got caught up in something of an info deluge and missed out on this reply. The "Shal'dorei imprint" I'm referring is their specific style separate from the Ancient Night Elves we've seen or that have been described to us. I think the remaining Moon Guard NPC's would probably be the most recent and easily visible comparisons - their citadel in Suramar and their general look and aesthetic aren't like the Nightborne from Suramar City at all. The Highborne Kaldorei and the Moon Guard favor ostentatious robes said to be in a rather tasteless clash of colors (to modern eyes one supposes), Lothrius Mooncaller and his ilk seem more like regular Night Elves in caster's robes, and their citadel (untouched from ancient times) are towers of ivory-like stone and teal crowns, preferring arcs and crescent motifs of what seems like brass or perhaps gold inlays. The Nightborne, by contrast, make extensive use of glass and/or arcane latticework in their architecture, and similarly their clothing glows with Arcane runes, etchings, and even elaborate motifs such as trees, feathers, or halo-like esoteric diagrams. There's a sense of grandeur and grandiosity beyond even the Highborne on that scale, and this is reflected in the unique design of Suramar City - which I imagine looked a lot more like what we see of the Moon Guard Stronghold or the structures around the Well of Eternity (in the WoE Cata instance) 10,000+ years ago. Tyrande herself remarks how foreign to her the people of Suramar are and she doesn't recognize them despite having lived in Suramar City in her youth. The Nightborne, and the city of Tyrande's youth, have been transformed with the passage of those many years.
    Thanks for the clarification.

    I still disagree though, for several reasons. Firstly, we see kaldorei architecture vary immensely. The image we see of Zin'Azshari in Warbringers, the ruins of Vash'jir, the ruins of Eldre'thalas, the ruins of Nar'thalas, Moonguard Stronghold and Suramar - each one has very different styles and architecture to them. This is actually what I would expect of a civilization that spans the globe with millions of people and many different sub-cultures and nuances, loving to create exotic beautiful pieces of architecture. They are all going to look different.

    Thalyssra's cinematic of Suramar describes it as the JEWEL of the night elf empire. Easily explaining why it is different from Moonguard stronghold, and considerably more beautiful aesthetically. It is still night elven, just a rather specially done one. You are shown the city beautifully laid out in the cinematic anyway, with night elves walking its streets. And it does make sense to me, that for race that struggled to provide clothing and food with its finite resources, would not be altering the physical structures with its magic, something utterly needless, for a ppeople thatre very proudd of their cutlure and their beautiful city, this pride and high regard are nnot something born of the transition to shal'dorei, they are rooted in kaldorei identity. The shal'dorei is not an alterantion of this, it is a continuation, and it represents a specific time era of the kaldorei's total maintained in that exact state, as if frozen in time for 10,000 years.

    I also give you Tel'anor anotehr example of differeing architecture. Then when you hit Val'sharah you see yet a different type employed by kaldorei who would now use whisps to fashion out homes, cottages that resemble the wooden version of the stone and marble ruins because these evles had put civilization and the arcane on holdd to an extent.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I mean that is seems like the ancient Kaldorei first revered nature and the Arcane roughly equal - but over time, and with mastery of the energies of the Well, the emphasis on the Arcane began to eclipse the emphasis on the reverence of nature. By Malfurion's time the path that would lead to Druidism was considered "quaint" and decidedly of lesser worth than a place among the Highborne or the Moon Guard. After the War of the Ancients and following the Sundering Kaldorei society changed pretty swiftly - the legacy of Azshara and her dealing with the Legion tainting the view of the Arcane, and so the society re-embraced its former reverence for nature and the new path of the Druid while eschewing the Arcane entirely, eventually exiling those remaining Highborne who wouldn't give it up. It wouldn't be until the return of the Shen'dralar to the fold (and recognition for the need of their old Arcane skills) in Cata that the status quo was changed.
    This I agree with, and its nice to see we have reached similar conclusions. I would add some deductions and insights that come to mind when I consider this further.

    There is so much delicious nuance here, and interesting to explore the effects an event like hte first invasion would have on the kaldorei. I feel in many ways the pre-sunjdering kaldorei are like us in our current agee of technology, reeaing an ding distruction due to our ignroing key essentials to life and feeling we can use science and technology to substitute and replace what life has adequately provided and done well too, as our egos and vanity swell and thus our conceit into thinking we have no limit, no responsibility and can do what we want, even break life because our science can fix it. So rather than rest when we are tired or have a headache, we take coffee and pain killers, we allow ourselves to create things we even on discovering are harmful onto the environment to break down, we ignore because our vanity and ego lets us presume science and ttech can fix the problem for us.

    It is not an exact analogy but you get the jist, you see it was not knowledge or magic in and of itself that was wrong or bad, but the dependancy, arrogance and conceit of the ngiht elf population indiciating that it had lost its way from its noble roots, and as such needed a break.. not a permanent one, but enough to wake the people up into seeing sense and stop taking life, and magic for granted. I get the impression this is what MAlfurions mission was to help his people see, and was his major concern. And why he was fine with them going without the arcane afteer the sundering and I believe he felt it was good for them for a while.

    However this was not the only issue nor even the main one with magic, ift this was all there was for it, a few years, maybe 50-100 wouldd havve been all they needed to regain perspecctive. THe legioion wweeren't destroyed,, they were banished, and the arcane the only power, and the well the only source capable of recalling them. With Satyr agents still around and the magnitude, world ending nature of this alien invasion, the arcane for all its benefits, and the long time good it could bring when the people had regained perspective and possibly created an even better future than beofre, one where they weren't lost to arrogance and complacency, all of htis paled in comparsion to the legion.

    The principle reason of leaving both civilization un restored and arcane magic banned depsite the creation of a new well, was the fear of the legion returning. This is why Illidans gift is viewed as an act of betrayal rather than salvation, by mages even. No one wants the legion back, and Illidan, who's loyalty is still in doubt at that point, is not trusted or abllle to persuade hhis people too seeing his point of view.

    ALl night elves know magic is a gift, but with the capability that using spells lights up Azeroth in the twisting nether, drawing demons to finding it, all of a sudden makes this gift dangerous. REmember, the decadence, conceit, dependency are not flaws of magic, they are flaws of character, it is character fixing that is needed for that, not magic fixing (sure a temporary absence of the fuel for this conceit is a good step to take, but it is not the magic itself that needs fixiing that issue - sane night elves are very highly intelligent, not like humanity you must remember, they would see this). The problem is not decadence, conceit and dependency but an invading alien force with the power to wipe the world and drain it completely of magic, magic they at the time believed was the goal of the legion.

    This leads to the very tough stance. I don't think night elves loathed the arcane, but rather their fall to dependency and arrogant recklessness, or in particular the highborne leaders in Zin'Azshari, leading the entire race astray. It is a subtle distinction but one an Elf should catch easily and not lose sight of once clairty comes. Furthermore the anger is not directed at the arcane either, they aren't hillbiilly humans, they know the cause of this, they know where they have erred, and they know who are the chief culprits, the Highborne in Zin'Azshari, this is where most of the anger is directed at. Again not the arcane. They are dismayed when the well is formed, not because they loathe the arcane, but the fact that the return of such a powerful source brings with it the risk of demons returning. It is the demons not the arcane that are at the heart of it, and any sensible person having no otherer option, wouldld opt to destroy tthththe arcane source to permanently prevent the demons from returning - beacuse as far as they know, this is the only thing that can bring them. With the insights from Illidan and Legion, we know Illidan knew this was not the case. Despite the risk the arcane well could bring, in his mind it was a net gain, because he trusted his people would learn from their first error, and would be far better stewards of their magic, use it to rebuild what was destroyed and eventually excel enough to be able to destroy the Legion once and for all.

    They are not privvy to his inner thoughts, they are still in shiock+. Instead, hiding hte magic, hiding their power is the option they decide to take. The highborne from zin'azshari with them are in as much shock as they are. However other highborne and arcnae users, like the night elves in Suramar and Eldre'thalas, they already find ways to use magic without drawing the legion. THe Shen'dralar, the Queen's most revered arcanists, may not have had Titan relics to create a potent font of energy like the Suramar night elves who stayed behind, but they were quiuiick to not only summon an immense demon without drawiing the legion back, but trapping it then disguising their power and magic usage via pylons, so that it was undetectable by the night elves and druids and by the legion - they were that smart.

    Thhe other highborne group, Farondis, presided at the head of the worllds foremost academy on arcane theory and studies. Thiis is a phenomenal accolage. they aren't stupid either, but they were noble too, and they were th first to act against Azshara, they sought to destroy the well, she caught wind of it, and made an example of them. I reckon that this brought many of the highborne in line, and caused those who opposed her to work in secret, like the onees in Menaar, the Valewalkers, Elisande in Suramar going her own way. The ones in Eldre'thalas who wouldn't join her. The Queen must have realized her grand vision of a new start was not shared by all her loyal subjects. While many of the populace came to think she was being held captive by greedy over confident highborne, most highborne who oppose her would have known the situation.

    There is so much to take from what blizzard has shown as about the night elvees. Only Maiev outrightly hates arcane period. For the rest of the night elves, the distrust is of arcane night elven users of the highborne class, the ones who were forming the portals, i.e. those that became naga and satyr, and the few who switched sides last minute (Sunstrider group that would later become High Elves). It is a sublte distinction but it is there. It explains why the night elves of WC3 despite this being their history, are not going all "i hate you human magic users" you are all corrupted by evil arcane we totally oppose. They don't do that, not even in WC3, they work with high elves too, and humans, and later draenei. THis also fits the lore that shows you while they would not permit the use of the well of eternity for magic (i.e. the sort of largescale powerworks that you would need to rebuild those incredible cities in the previous era), they actually used the arcane energies in the moonwells, which they combine with nature magic in connecting with the land, and with the light of elune in purifying and safeguarding the energy from corruption (there are satyr legion agents still around).

    We also know night elves have a degree of compassion for them as well, this is seen in the classic quest, and re-iterated again in Legion when Thaon the feral druid sys his brothers were to weak to slay the satyrs. I believe night elves believed some of them were redeemable, and we get evidence of this in cataclysm and legion, as Elune converts 2 back, this is also compounded by the fact that satyrs can turn night elves into satyrs against their will, so there would be some who were forced into this demonic lifestyle.

    People who think the night elves should oppose or not ally with the humans becuase they haveve mages, or feel the return and aacceptance of shen'dralar highobrne who had no part in creating portals for the legion, don't understand night elven lore, and have mistaken the ban on the arcane as the ncessatiy for preventing the return of the legion and turned it into some genuine racial hatred for the arcane, rather than a race concerned with the abuse of power after having witnessed it themselves.

    Furthermore their refusal to see that night elves who have found humility after arcamne mastery and willing to lay it down exhibit the greatest and truest mastery of all, therfore making them perhaps the best and most capable and able wielders of the magic is another blind spot by many, all because of this erroneous conviction that night elvs who are made from the arcane and elevated/enlightened because of it, actaully hate the thing that made them be and that they used to create a beautiful, prosperous and wonderful civilizaton. Its as if they don't ask themselves if the night elves hated the arcane and the pre-sundering era..why do they hate the legion so much and feel so bad about it all being destroyed? Ans is simple. they don't hate the arcane, nor do they hate their previous civilizaton. What they hate is them allowing themselves to become too dependent and callous, forsakeking essential ligr practices they should not have.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I think that's really only a matter of time, although it may not return to the prominence it had under Azshara and the Highborne (and probably shouldn't, given the givens).
    It should not return to the singular arcane focus society wide it became towards the end of Azshara's reign (note i said towards the end, because she didn't start of their either). This the night elves now know is bad. This is not to say you can't or won't have a group like the mages or the highborne entirely focused on the arcane, the problem is when EVERYONE becomes focused on the arcane, ignoring nature, substituting things with the arcane that shouldnt be substituted (like food the nightborne end up doing in Suramar). With no druids around in night elf society, there was not a powerful enough voice advocating balance and so those in the arcane more easily lost their way.

    So while their arcane mastery and studies can excel to new heights and new extents, surpassing that of Azshara's era, what shoudln't happen is the society forgetting balance or humility. The body of druids brings both, but mainly the former, while the priests actually bring the latter and the spiritual and mental discipline of integrity to use the power for what is right and good. The 3 in their society is essential. Without the arcane will be abused. Without the arcane, nature is less power, less enhanced and prone to corruption, not to mention the society can't develop like it possibly should. And without a preisthood they would be prone to evil, and corruption, subverting their great knowledge to harm, that is just as bad the time when they let the arcane do everything it had no business doing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Personally, I would like to see Eldre'Thalas returned to glory - a new citadel for Night Elves who wish to explore their Arcane heritage more fully, perhaps in conjunction with the Druids who can assist in the effort and perhaps even aid them with gifts like arcan'dor and other fusions of the Arcane and Druidic magic. There's a lot to show that the pillars of Kaldorei culture don't have to be separate of one-another - and perhaps even more fundamental advances in both Arcane and Druidic magic can be made if their knowledge and wisdom are combined in the proper light.
    I would love Zin'Azshari, but a rebuilt eldre'thalas would do. Suramar would also be a cool catch, but we already have that now, it would be nice if they did something even more amazing than that. The night elves have 10,000 years additional arcane knowledge and mastery in the highborne, moonguard and Farondis that are currently around, they also have 10,000 years additional nature knowledge too, with trees that have memory of everything that was done -- and lets not forget it was highborne and ancient druidic trees that built all those fantastic night elf cities of the past.

    The variation of architecture that represents the kaldorei is simply stunning, but one thing they all have in common is an exquisite elegance. If Suramar is the image of a prisitne kaldorei city in all its glory, full powered up with magic like they all were when the Well of eternity powered the entire civilization, then surely it would be breathtaking to see what new capital they would make.

    Personally, If blizzard want to be lazy, i'm fine with the night elves and nightborne sharing Suramar, or the night elves taking it over preferably with a whole bunch of defected nightborne, while the horde loyal and faithful nightbborne share with the blood elves in Silvermoon. - making it 1 elven city each. However the reason the nightborne are in the horde is because of Suramar, I have a strong feeling this is so. If the art team hadn't done such an amazing job, and the story team do a good story, it would not have caught the eyes of senior execs who all played horde and thus wanted it.

    Dire Maul does not compare, not in that state. Silvermoon could if it was redone, like the picture in Chronicles, but it would have to be an expansion focus again, that sort of art work is labour intensive.

    As it stands, unless the senior execs switch factions back to the alliance, or the horde and alliance in this format cease to exist with the elves being their own thing, we aren't going to see Suramar with the night elves even though it really should be in my opinion, now being the perfect time as they've lost a capital, and funnily enough the original capital the entire story of that specific group of night elves is based on is returned and they are instead completely divorced from it? It is highly suspcious and has the sense of a decision not made out of the interest of the best story or progression (as it woudl have been great and positive chapter for the night elves) but one rather based on wants and desires. .. and this is sad, cos i think the more they make decisions like that, the more the lore is jeorpadised. It woudl have fit better in the tale of the Kaldorei - but who knows, maybe that is still the plan, and while the execs play horde, actually they genuinely want to see both sides have good things ( i know strange concept huh ).

    THe question is what now. Zin'Azshari would have made a better horde aligned city because the sin'dorei ancestors originate from their even thought it was the night elf capital, but truth be told, they should not have been shipping elves over to the horde in the first place, and imo, night elves would have been best off as their own faction - eventually getting both their ancient cities of Suramar, Zin'Azshari and Eldre'thalas back. It woudl have ben quite the stoyr.

    But currently they have been minor players in a faction for 14 years, while we've seen the horde have orcs, then trolls then forsaken be its frontrunners. The WC3 4 factions were good, I wish it had stayed like that.

    As for now though, Eldre'thals? New City? Restored CIty? Suramar? whatever it is, anything less than the quality of Suramar now will feel a disappointment to night elven fans for a new city. So I will just hope that their bias would swing to the night elves for a while, because the night elf lore has been a source of some amazing fantasy and art concept for warcraft.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post

    Mate you need to stop with the text walls.
    Auculd is engaging, it's actually nice to be able to go into this level of detail with someone who you know would read and appreciate it.

  11. #31
    Nope, they were biologically altered from the original race whereas night elves weren't. Plus night elves aren't all "tree elves" The highbourne rejoined them in Cata.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    Nope, they were biologically altered from the original race whereas night elves weren't. Plus night elves aren't all "tree elves" The highbourne rejoined them in Cata.
    tree elf is a slur, it's not an identity, just like calling night elves trolls - they full well know they are not, some are sensitive about these things, reducing a huge greatly varied race like that to one thing is pretty insulting for touchy proud types of thier identity

    Secondly, biology aside, a case can be made that they are the true night elves culturally and identity. Although truth is, biologically they are just a variation of it, and culturally kaldorei at a specific point in their long history - the time of the first invasion.

    You people over think this. Nightborne a just night elf version 2.0, just one of a long line of variations on core races. Every main playable race has multiple facets tot hem in their lore, those that don't have new ones invented for them, to keep the game interesting and fresh.

    In the night elf case, its the nightborne and a part of their pre-sundering culture at the 1st invasion.

    They are both night elven. Don't let the new name fool you. They are no more truer night elves than the kaldorei, some may feel they are less so because they look different, but really they aren't.

  13. #33
    Sadly, the true Kaldorei got wiped out. Go ask the Dark Forest Troll ambassador at Zuldazar


    Watch my Warcraft 3 stuff in either YouTube, BitChute, DailyMotion, or DTube.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    But who knows what mangling blizzard will do with lore and logic...
    This.. sometimes i wonder if the greatest fans are actually bothered by this, or are even aware? or is it a case of after you accept one ridiculous thing, it gets easier and easeier to accept more preposterous and ridiculous things.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ujimasa Hojo View Post
    Sadly, the true Kaldorei got wiped out. Go ask the Dark Forest Troll ambassador at Zuldazar
    Really? where is he? link or quote what he says.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    SNIP
    OMG biggest wall of text crit ever.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    Really? where is he? link or quote what he says.
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Speaker_Ik%27nal

    sadly, it does seem to be the end for them. it's pretty lame honestly.

  16. #36
    Night elves aren't hard to understand.

    Pre sundering era and long vigil era are all night elven.

    Nightborne becomes a thing in Suramar at some point under the shield, it is a new state of night elven, but the original Kaldorei in the alliance are not any less or more night elven because their culture has significantly changed under the long vigil or after it.

    Neither is their past era, their arcane mastery, their level of civilization, their architecture and forestry, none of those are any less or more night elven. They are night elven.

    If blizzard wanted a new form of elf not night elven, they would repeat what they did with the high elves, a separation event where this elves start something new as well as look and feel different.
    But nightborne do look and feel different you may respond. Yes, they do, but in the way that two night elf groups can be different - because Suramar, advanced arcane magic, the culture, symbols, mindset etc, those have all been shown to be kaldorei in earlier content and lore, (read War of the Ancients Trilogy, follow the suramar story in book and Legion, listen to the cinematics, observe the city and people) as such while it seems very different it is still under the Kaldorei bracket- it's just another side to the kaldorei that is still very kaldorei, just one they hadnt properly shown in their game yet. This is a detailed look at the arcane dark elf kaldorei aspect which is kaldorei still. Unlike the high elves who build and do new things that were never kaldorei, they relearn their magic, a new high culture, a daylight kingdom etc. Some things would be similar to various aspects of the kaldorei from both pre sundering and long vigil eras they are still elves, but it is a new non-kaldorei thing. A high elf thing

    The high elf is very distinct from the night elf/nightborne -
    • They move to a completely new land
    • They form a new high culture different from both the pre sundering and long vigil
    • They achieve a different state of day walking rather than nocturnal
    • They build new cities, not a night elf city, their own from scratch
    • Their colour scheme and symbology change.
    • They develop new cultural and religious modes

    Every aspect about them has experienced a change. They still have more in common with their night elven kin than not - hence why they are elves and not given a different race name, but a lot is different. Remember that.

    There is a reason the night elves are still the night elves. No name change, the pre sundering and long vigil are eras of the same race of people.

    Yes, I know it is hard for some people to understand, but Warcraft elves are not 1 aspect race. Night elves have history, they have multiple beliefs, focuses, multiple cultures as befits a race that dominated the world and has lived so long.

    The topic question suggests the nightborne might be truer kaldorei than the Darnassians. They are not, they are a kaldorei off shoot, so the main branch cannot be less kaldorei than an off shoot branch.

    Highborne are Kaldorei too, not a different race or species. We don't call it the noble empire, we call it the British Empire. It is night elves that branch off into Naga, Satyr, High elves and nightborne. While the majority of these are from highborne, not all are, and highborne are night elf. (Not all Satyr and Nightborne were highborne caste, but as far as we know all Naga and High elves were.

    Before the night elf story, the word highborne is never used to describe high elves. It is entirely a night elf racial story used in the great tale of the origin of this , magical elf group, to show why they are in the state you meet them in Warcraft 3 and why and how their civilisation fell.

    They were created to be a full and astonishing race with a rich history fitting a people that have been alive over 10,000 years and dominated the world. The highborne, the arcane magic, the moon goddess, the advanced civilization, the long vigil, the nature era, the well of eternity, this is all constructed for the night elves to make them an incredible race with a unique story and features.

    Blizzard wanted something amazing to match the orcs and humans in depth and one that made sense for the sort of people with that sort of age, immortality and achievements. Blizzard like to do amazing things too for their franchise. The night elves were one such.

    If the night elves didn't have THAT sort of story, they would look ridiculous for a race that is defeats the burning legion, that is immortal and been around over 10k years.

    To tie the highborne to the high elves connects the two groups and gives a background history to where the high elves come from. No one calls them highborne, because they are high elves, even though you would count them as highborne stock, the reference is only used in conjunction with the night elves. Not so the nightborne who being in the Kaldorei mould still, you would consider nightborne a bit more similar to how you would consider void elves. Difference being nightborne have been in that state for a few thousand years more, but they are still in the kaldorei bracket, just as void elves, blood elf are still in the high elf bracket.

    It took a developer to remind the community that blood elves were high elves. And while politically the names hold varying significance, and blood elves have some minor physical alterations, they are not a totally new race, void elves very further but still aren't a totally new race, rather are just a sub race. This how forum chatter can warp perspective.

    It is the same for nightborne.

    I suspect people just find it hard to relate the nightborne in fancy Suramar to your night elf living in the woods and trees. But this is what the lore shows and tells you. The night elves of the north left civilization and the magic they used to build it in order to carry out the Long Vigil, you are supposed to remember that these guys lived in places like Suramar and built a phenomenal civilization, and it is a sharp contrast with how you meet them in wc3 as it is supposed to highlight the very real effect such a world breaking event like the sundering has.

    It is not supposed to cause you to dissociate or remove the night elves history from them and assume well the pre sundering stuff isn't night elf. It is, and the Night elves are still on a journey. The ones you start with in classic have come out of the long vigil. The era of the watch, no civilisation and no arcane magic is ended with the return of the great enemy they make such changes to deny entry.

    Warcraft night elves start civilization again, you would not be wrong to assume they will soon combine the best bits of both their eras, the forest elf era of the long vigil and the dark elf era of the pre-sundering era. Especially as night elves who follow both era are still around, and in Cataclysm they start coming together - long vigil era night elves and pre-sundering era night elves start working together, this is extended in legion with the nightborne and Farondis and Moonguard, although after Legion the nightborne decide to go friends with the blood elves..,but they are still kaldorei pre-sundering group, and you must not forget other pre sundering groups and minded elves like Farondis, Shen'dralar and Moonguard don't follow them, nor do the risen Ravencrest undead ones, and you have another culture of night elves - the Illidari.

    This is all part of Night elf lore. This all night elven.

    A race is allowed to have multiple cultures, multiple groups and multiple states. They are allowed to be their own unique mixture and story. They don't have to mirror nor do their have to contrast other playable core races like Thalssians or Humans , dwarves or orcs, just to be different. They have their own story, and it is different because it is their story, it will differ in some ways but in other ways it will overlap with other races.

    They have their own thing, druidic culture is not the sole identidy of the Kaldorei, their have priesthood identity and an arcane one as well as a fel one. All that stuff is night elven. All part of the Kaldorei.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2019-01-28 at 01:47 PM.

  17. #37
    The Patient qil's Avatar
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    All elves are kaldorei! We should unite and rebuild our empire! NE and VE can destroy Ally from inside, the same job for BE and NB in Horde. And Azeroth will bo ours again! For the kaldorei!

    Im not trolling. I really want kaldorei faction.
    Already they plot against us.
    Seize this moment, Varian.
    Dismantle the Horde!

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