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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by kubaje View Post
    By unsing the drain life talent? You can only drain so many times before going oom and then not being able to do anything, so no, this isn't op at all. If that was possible it would have been nerfed by now for PvP balancing reasons.
    If you know what you're doing and you glare early you can have massive uptime on UA. You don't know what you're talking about if you think is balanced. My lock does a fuckton too much damage relative to it's ilvl when I have access to my PvP talents. How PvP plays and how PvE plays are very very different. Not too many raid bosses are trying to duck or interrupt my drains.

    Serious question: do you PvP? I'm thinking that might be why you don't see the difference.

  2. #22
    I'll tell ya, I've grown to hate PvE now because it turns off PvP talents. As a Fury Warrior, I just love Enduring Rage. It's so good. I wish it was a PvE talent. I absolutely hate playing without it.
    "He who lives without discipline dies without honor" - Viking proverb

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Problem is that those issues are obvious to see them from a mile away.
    Making suggestions and then just go "downsides may exist but that's what the devs have to fix, right?" is a bad basis for a discussion based on a suggestion.

    Even in a Vanilla Blizzard made decisions based on balance, else Undead would probably still be perma Fear, Charm and Sleep immune while also being subject to Shackle Undead.
    You're talking numbers, I'm talking systems. Back in the day pretty much each class had something you wanted to have in your raid. Be it hymn of hope, windfury totem or replenishment. Doesn't matter if it's just a stupid passive buff or an active ability. That way class stacking was very limited until Cata happened.

    If PvP Talents can bring some of that back, I'm all for it.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by kubaje View Post
    That way class stacking was very limited until Cata happened.
    Then i suggest you read up on the overall class meta in SWP and the term "Shaman stacking".
    Small hint, Totems and Bloodlust were party based (not raid) and Bloodlust did not apply sated while being at a 5min CD.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    If you know what you're doing and you glare early you can have massive uptime on UA. You don't know what you're talking about if you think is balanced. My lock does a fuckton too much damage relative to it's ilvl when I have access to my PvP talents. How PvP plays and how PvE plays are very very different. Not too many raid bosses are trying to duck or interrupt my drains.

    Serious question: do you PvP? I'm thinking that might be why you don't see the difference.
    LOL yeah I do, mainly. I'm actually wondering if YOU know what that talent does. Or know how Aff is played in PvP. I'm not sure you do.

  6. #26
    The Insane FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kubaje View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I don't want Blizz to trash them, but there is absolutely no reason for them to be PvP only.

    Nowadays everyone and their mom or even grandma are complaining about how terrible most classes feel. Most classes are lacking tools for certain situations or have really awkward mechanics in BfA. Except PvPers. Somehow they are a lot less likely to complain about how their classes feel.

    Ever tried healing a M+ as disc in Grievious-Weeks? Yeah, I'd rather jump off a cliff than try to do that. Well, guess what. There is a PvP Talent which greatly increases the healing of Power Word: Radiance and makes it instant cast. Combining this PvP Talent with the right Azerite Traits would actually make it so much less of a pain in the ass.

    Let's take a look at SPriest. A class that has nothing to cast while moving. If only you could get into Voidform to at least use Voidbolt while moving. I'm sorry, got to cast Void Eruption. For no real reason. If only there was a talent to make it instant cast... like the PvP Talent.

    Same thing for Demo Locks and the Master Summoner Talent. Have you tried burst healing someone with a single target heal as a MW Monk? Really awkward situation, because you have to use your AoE heal to ST heal people. Again, PvPers have the solution to that awkward gameplay in Surging Mist. Why can't Rogues pick Shiv for PvE Situations? The list goes on and on.

    You get the point. Classes feel a hell of a lot better in PvP and those Talents aren't game breaking. Probably 99% of them wouldn't even need to be changed for PvE usage.


    PvP Talents were implemented to reduce the "ability bloat" and to incentivize people to use War Mode (i guess). Well, neither of those worked out. Classes feel dull and without the 30% XP buff there wouldn't be a single Alliance player using War Mode. So basically they have no reason to exist the way they do right now.

    This change wouldn't fix all the flaws the game has but it's a small fix which Blizzard already has in the game, only with a stupid restriction.
    No pvp talents were implemented so people in pvp could get spells and talents that in PVE would be useless, or insanely overpowered.

    if this pvp talent was available in raid bosses, it would be INSANE
    literally apply agony get it to 15 stacks, corruption, 5 stacks of UA. pop darkglare to increase durations.
    then just drain life forever, and suddenly you are doing a million dps cause you have infinite 5 UA.
    but in pvp all they need is an interupt, stun, or just to dispell themselves and all your settup is gone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Azerite is absolutely RNG you are right. You have no idea what traits will be on that piece you got from a random source until you roll it. I've literally had a Warfront piece that had the "opposite faction" passive and no passive/proc for my spec but it did for the other 2.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Then i suggest you read up on the overall class meta in SWP and the term "Shaman stacking".
    Small hint, Totems and Bloodlust were party based (not raid) and Bloodlust did not apply sated while being at a 5min CD.
    That's just poor implementation and still didn't cause excessive class stacking. Look at Wrath. Paragon did it to an extend, yet hat 10 out of 11 classes in it's most important kill ever. I think it worked out perfectly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    No pvp talents were implemented so people in pvp could get spells and talents that in PVE would be useless, or insanely overpowered.

    if this pvp talent was available in raid bosses, it would be INSANE
    literally apply agony get it to 15 stacks, corruption, 5 stacks of UA. pop darkglare to increase durations.
    then just drain life forever, and suddenly you are doing a million dps cause you have infinite 5 UA.
    but in pvp all they need is an interupt, stun, or just to dispell themselves and all your settup is gone.
    Dude try it yourself. It only extends one UA at a time so most of them are gone in 15 secs and you can't have infinite UA's because Drain Life actually drains your mana really quickly. So no, that's not strong at all. How about trying it yourself before posting such trash?

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by kubaje View Post
    That's just poor implementation and still didn't cause excessive class stacking. Look at Wrath. Paragon did it to an extend, yet hat 10 out of 11 classes in it's most important kill ever. I think it worked out perfectly.
    Okay, now you are just twisting things.

    First off, it SWP was probably the most imbalanced raid as far as class balance is concerned, even 5 Rogues on Mythic Zul didn't come close to what the shit has happened there.

    Right off the bat, you wanted 4-5 Shaman, maybe one Enhance / Ele but mostly Resto.
    You wanted one Shaman in every group anyway for the extremely powerful Totems, Windfury, Wrath of Air, Manaspring, optionally also Totem of Wrath (if you had an Ele) and Manatide from Resto.
    And obviously Bloodlust, more Shaman = more Bloodlust.

    And here i am ignoring what Destro Locks, Fury and Combat Rogues have been doing.

    That's not just one boss, that was the case on any boss.

    Second, the massive issue was how the sheer mass of unique but powerful buffs basically forced you to play a certain setup, which was terror for lower end guilds who did not have the right classes or lacked the attendance on those classes.

    SP('s) not there today? No one else can be a Mana battery => Raid cancelled.
    Hpally not showing up? That's one pally blessing missing => Raid cancelled.
    Shaman not there? You lose one lust and a party loses totems => Raid cancelled.

    The fundamental reshift of Blizzard to "Bring the player not the class" in Wotlk happened primarily because of the experience in TBC how too many powerful bonuses enforced a rather strict setup.

    Skyfury totem in its current would just be a slightly different repetition Bloodlust of TBC, its damage bonus still increases beyond the first Shaman, so you would take as many as you can to reach 100% uptime.
    You would have to make the buff weak enough to prevent that or somehow change it that a single Shaman already provides full bonus.
    Blizzard already tried that one time again in WoD with Aspect of the Fox, didn't make it beyond 6.2..

    Furthermore, judging class representation simply by looking whether just a single class was present is stupid.
    Methods KJ firstkill had 10 / 12 classes present - which ignores that there were 5 Rogues and 5 Druids present.

    Class stacking depends on how many of a single class are present, not whether just an overall low count of individual classes are present.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2019-01-12 at 02:20 AM.

  9. #29
    Idk why you're pushing it to the extremes. None of those things have to be implemented in a way that makes abusing it possible. Fuck the Skyfury Totem. You're too hung up on that even though it wouldn't take more than 15 minutes to change it in a reasonable way. There is still a plethora of talents that are actually fun and not in the slightliest way op.

    And btw, casual guilds did NOT have to cancel their raids because they were missing a SPriest. That's just a blantant lie. They had to cancel it the same way top 5000 guilds have to split raid. They don't.

  10. #30
    The Insane FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kubaje View Post
    That's just poor implementation and still didn't cause excessive class stacking. Look at Wrath. Paragon did it to an extend, yet hat 10 out of 11 classes in it's most important kill ever. I think it worked out perfectly.

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    Dude try it yourself. It only extends one UA at a time so most of them are gone in 15 secs and you can't have infinite UA's because Drain Life actually drains your mana really quickly. So no, that's not strong at all. How about trying it yourself before posting such trash?
    1. in pvp your stats are balanced and affi haste is a lower stat, but in pve it is not, so stack haste and bayum.
    2. it used to, not anymore?
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Azerite is absolutely RNG you are right. You have no idea what traits will be on that piece you got from a random source until you roll it. I've literally had a Warfront piece that had the "opposite faction" passive and no passive/proc for my spec but it did for the other 2.

  11. #31
    The Lightbringer Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Problem is that those issues are obvious to see them from a mile away.
    Making suggestions and then just go "downsides may exist but that's what the devs have to fix, right?" is a bad basis for a discussion based on a suggestion.

    Even in a Vanilla Blizzard made decisions based on balance, else Undead would probably still be perma Fear, Charm and Sleep immune while also being subject to Shackle Undead.
    Crazy imbalance was part of Vanilla's charm tbh
    "The heart of the Horde" = Alliance-approved Horde

  12. #32
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Arrow

    As I have repeatedly said, idea was initially stupid itself. Everything proceeded from their desire to artificially emphasize separation of these two fields of activity from design point of view. But the whole problem is that it was unnecessary to divide anything and they only doubled their problems with balancing classes by their action, and also ruined their design in general. They cut everything you can('t) do. They filled most part of PvP component with absolutely idiotic unbalanced "sick" spells, and now they don’t know what to do with it. But everything worked quite differently... and it did work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Crazy imbalance was part of Vanilla's charm tbh
    I repeat, that people mostly understand word "balance" in different ways. It's natural that there was no perfect balance in vanilla, but it wasn’t necessary because (and now attention, main part) game itself had solid design and this primarily included basic idea of ​​balance (they voiced it recently - it's "you don't say" part, good old stone/scissors/paper - global balance not 1:1 (the best, that they had with old mechanics, I'd choose something between WotLK+BC; for new mechanics - Pandaria; do you know what is common between them in terms of design? no "pvp talents"!), but they don’t stick to it, it's just more like buzzwords) and symbiosis of RPG game mechanics (see previous paragraph) with classes design. There is no such thing now, these components are torn off chunks and each of them is occupied by separate creature without idea of ​​what is being done outside its jurisdiction.

    So there was an idea of balance in vanilla, but without humiliation class&game design.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-04-10 at 06:09 AM.
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  13. #33
    Do you think my outlaw rogue feels better because i can select some shitty PvP talents?

    No shit, not in the actual fuck.

    Like, NO.

  14. #34
    PvP talents have a place as well... As annoying as it is that many specs play better and are stronger in pvp than pve, some specs (like shadow) simply need attention.

    On the whole, classes need to be reassessed in terms of baseline abilities and roles as compared to other classes that they share utility with. For instance, shaman specs don't have a defensive kit or mobility, yet they primarily are competing against classes that have immunities and mobility. Warlocks have somewhat the same problem, but they boast unique utility and do have movement talents.

  15. #35
    The Lightbringer docterfreeze's Avatar
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    They're still a thing because they reaaaaaaaaaaally don't want to give our abilities back.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by kubaje View Post
    That would be true if there was power gain or game breaking abilities, which there isn't in most cases.

    Giving players an option to make Void Eruption instant cast wouldn't need any adjustments. Same goes for "Call Dreadstalkers". Or Shiv for rogues.

    I feel like PvP Talents are what Blizzard wanted the main Talents to be. Giving you a way to customize your Character with abilites that are interesting and fill your class without making or breaking it.

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    I wouldn't say SPriest design is working as intended. It doesn't matter if Blizzards philisophy is that they don't want everyone to have everything. When you can do absolutely nothing relevant while moving, your class feels terrible. Whenever a class feels terrible, Blizzard failed and their philosophy is worth absolutely nothing.
    It's not even that SPriests can't do anything while moving. They can't when they aren't in Voidform. Entering Voidform requires you to stand still to cast Void Eruption. That just feels terrible, especially when you know you could do it while moving in PvP.

    Shiv isn't an issue either. There is a problem when only a single class has a mechanic like that. Giving rogues an enrage dispel on a 12 sec CD wouldn't change the meta whatsoever. Shivs 70% snare is also a great effect that makes the ability worthwhile without being OP.

    Those are just the extreme examples. Most PvP Talents are passive without huge impact on classes, yet they make them a lot more fun, interesting and most importantly they give you options to customize your character.
    Look, if you honestly think making a cast time ability an instant cast wouldnt impact balancing, you are a troll, or an idiot.

  17. #37
    Stood in the Fire mostvp71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xirrohon View Post
    Would like to see them go away. For a Hybrid class there are way too many damn buttons now, esp when you take into account Focus and Arena macros.
    And this is the crowd Ion listens to, so sad. Classes are extremely shallow, dull, homogenized and you want to GET RID of more depth to classes? Go play Diablo 3 if you want 4 buttons to press dude seriously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    No pvp talents were implemented so people in pvp could get spells and talents that in PVE would be useless, or insanely overpowered.

    if this pvp talent was available in raid bosses, it would be INSANE
    literally apply agony get it to 15 stacks, corruption, 5 stacks of UA. pop darkglare to increase durations.
    then just drain life forever, and suddenly you are doing a million dps cause you have infinite 5 UA.
    but in pvp all they need is an interupt, stun, or just to dispell themselves and all your settup is gone.
    Just have it limit in PvE? It's not that hard of a concept, they use to do this but people whining about there being ability bloat got it all pruned.

  18. #38
    I know the Void Eruption example got mentioned, and *man* does that make Shadow feel so much better when it's turned on in WM.

    I wouldn't mind it if that got moved to being baseline, and then there was a PvP talent that brought the cast time back but made it do vastly more damage.

    Actually, I do think they're under-utilizing PvP talents a bit, they could probably go further. Maybe some profession PvP talents that could be unlocked by crafting them? Engineers have all sorts of toys that could work as abilities, maybe some turrets or net guns or the return of the GNOMISH DEATH RAY. Blacksmiths could maybe craft barricades that could be used to block off paths. Leatherworkers could create net traps to snare that jerk flag runner, etc.

    If needed, you could always be the No Fun Police if some might be too OP and make them unpickable in RBG's.

  19. #39
    I think it's a really good idea, 3 fire mage with Mega Pyro and any boss you want is dead within 4 sec of fight
    Tbh, some classes have some talents to "counter" some problems of pvp interactions : more moves than pve, and situations in pvp we can't transpose in pve ( timed boss skills) to use pvp talent, i speak for fire mage; 4 sec cast 35% max health of target damage mega pyro, prismatic mantle -50% magic damage after a transfert, or -5 sec of combustion cd for each fireball you cast, will be so cheated in pve.

  20. #40
    Stood in the Fire mostvp71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaory View Post
    I think it's a really good idea, 3 fire mage with Mega Pyro and any boss you want is dead within 4 sec of fight
    Tbh, some classes have some talents to "counter" some problems of pvp interactions : more moves than pve, and situations in pvp we can't transpose in pve ( timed boss skills) to use pvp talent, i speak for fire mage; 4 sec cast 35% max health of target damage mega pyro, prismatic mantle -50% magic damage after a transfert, or -5 sec of combustion cd for each fireball you cast, will be so cheated in pve.
    Gpy doesn't work like that in PvE, I don't know how much damage it does exactly but it doesn't chunk bosses like it does players.

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