Why are PvP Talents still a thing?

[TheVaryag]

Don't get me wrong, I don't want Blizz to trash them, but there is absolutely no reason for them to be PvP only.

Nowadays everyone and their mom or even grandma are complaining about how terrible most classes feel. Most classes are lacking tools for certain situations or have really awkward mechanics in BfA. Except PvPers. Somehow they are a lot less likely to complain about how their classes feel.

Ever tried healing a M+ as disc in Grievious-Weeks? Yeah, I'd rather jump off a cliff than try to do that. Well, guess what. There is a PvP Talent which greatly increases the healing of Power Word: Radiance and makes it instant cast. Combining this PvP Talent with the right Azerite Traits would actually make it so much less of a pain in the ass.

Let's take a look at SPriest. A class that has nothing to cast while moving. If only you could get into Voidform to at least use Voidbolt while moving. I'm sorry, got to cast Void Eruption. For no real reason. If only there was a talent to make it instant cast... like the PvP Talent.

Same thing for Demo Locks and the Master Summoner Talent. Have you tried burst healing someone with a single target heal as a MW Monk? Really awkward situation, because you have to use your AoE heal to ST heal people. Again, PvPers have the solution to that awkward gameplay in Surging Mist. Why can't Rogues pick Shiv for PvE Situations? The list goes on and on.

You get the point. Classes feel a hell of a lot better in PvP and those Talents aren't game breaking. Probably 99% of them wouldn't even need to be changed for PvE usage.


PvP Talents were implemented to reduce the "ability bloat" and to incentivize people to use War Mode (i guess). Well, neither of those worked out. Classes feel dull and without the 30% XP buff there wouldn't be a single Alliance player using War Mode. So basically they have no reason to exist the way they do right now.

This change wouldn't fix all the flaws the game has but it's a small fix which Blizzard already has in the game, only with a stupid restriction.

Essentially, they took away more and more utility abilities from our class to make them feel bland and boring slowly each expansion, but since Legion re-added some Into the PvP talents which makes no sense as you say.

Pure and simple, they have no Idea what they're doing. Most classes lost a lot of utility and theres many situations like you've mentioned, In Dungeons, In outdoor situations that you know there's a counter for that. Lets say you're a class that can heal a tiny bit but you're mainly DPS, when the tank's In a real bind and the healer Is stunned or something, you could cast a few healing spells to help out, say Chain Heal and some others... but then you realize, no, you're an ELEMENTAL shaman, you don't have Chain Heal anymore, you just have a basic heal ability that drains your small reserve of mana within 4 casts and barely heals anyone to full HP.

They've tried to streamline classes Into doing one thing well, so much so that they can't do anything well. You can use every single class and then spec to point out something that they are missing which would be useful right now In a dungeon, raid or outdoor enviroment. For example my favorite class, Warrior. Where's my recklessness combined with Bladestorm that I can use? Where's my stance dancing where I could In a bad situation, switch to Defensive Stance with sword and shield when the tank Is In a bind In a dungeon, take agro off a mob or two to let him and the healer recover and then switch back to Battle Stance?

There's so much utility lost with the classes that somehow Blizzard hasn't realized and we have to remind them so that they return all of this and even better, Innovate on all of it.

And last point, majority of those PvP talents either USED to be REGULAR BASELINE CLASS ABILITIES or TALENTS we had for said spec, like rogues always had Shiv, or Shamans always had Chain Heal and so on. It just simply wasn't as powerful as a Healer Shaman's Chain Heal or a poison-spec rogue's Shiv and so on. You had all abilities, you could use them but they weren't as powerful, but still very useful.

I mean fudge sake, go look at any Classic Demo footage from Blizzcon 2018. Classes are at lvl 15, and they have more damn abilities on their bar than we do as lvl 120 In BfA.... let that sink In.

[kubaje]

Look, if you honestly think making a cast time ability an instant cast wouldnt impact balancing, you are a troll, or an idiot.

Yeah, making an ability that's used once every 30 sec and has a 1.5 sec cast instant cast needs probably some serious tuning changes. You must be the one trolling.

[FelPlague]

And this is the crowd Ion listens to, so sad. Classes are extremely shallow, dull, homogenized and you want to GET RID of more depth to classes? Go play Diablo 3 if you want 4 buttons to press dude seriously.

- - - Updated - - -


Just have it limit in PvE? It's not that hard of a concept, they use to do this but people whining about there being ability bloat got it all pruned.

because it is easier to have unique and cool spells in pvp
then have spells work differently in pve and pvp.

[arkanon]

Essentially, they took away more and more utility abilities from our class to make them feel bland and boring slowly each expansion, but since Legion re-added some Into the PvP talents which makes no sense as you say.

Pure and simple, they have no Idea what they're doing. Most classes lost a lot of utility and theres many situations like you've mentioned, In Dungeons, In outdoor situations that you know there's a counter for that. Lets say you're a class that can heal a tiny bit but you're mainly DPS, when the tank's In a real bind and the healer Is stunned or something, you could cast a few healing spells to help out, say Chain Heal and some others... but then you realize, no, you're an ELEMENTAL shaman, you don't have Chain Heal anymore, you just have a basic heal ability that drains your small reserve of mana within 4 casts and barely heals anyone to full HP.

They've tried to streamline classes Into doing one thing well, so much so that they can't do anything well. You can use every single class and then spec to point out something that they are missing which would be useful right now In a dungeon, raid or outdoor enviroment. For example my favorite class, Warrior. Where's my recklessness combined with Bladestorm that I can use? Where's my stance dancing where I could In a bad situation, switch to Defensive Stance with sword and shield when the tank Is In a bind In a dungeon, take agro off a mob or two to let him and the healer recover and then switch back to Battle Stance?

There's so much utility lost with the classes that somehow Blizzard hasn't realized and we have to remind them so that they return all of this and even better, Innovate on all of it.

And last point, majority of those PvP talents either USED to be REGULAR BASELINE CLASS ABILITIES or TALENTS we had for said spec, like rogues always had Shiv, or Shamans always had Chain Heal and so on. It just simply wasn't as powerful as a Healer Shaman's Chain Heal or a poison-spec rogue's Shiv and so on. You had all abilities, you could use them but they weren't as powerful, but still very useful.

I mean fudge sake, go look at any Classic Demo footage from Blizzcon 2018. Classes are at lvl 15, and they have more damn abilities on their bar than we do as lvl 120 In BfA.... let that sink In.

The situation you mentioned, with the shammy needing to pop a few heals, was a pretty common one. And as such, the hybrid tax was a thing. Again, people are reading too far into this. Its balance. Plain and simple. By removing as many abilities as they can, they make it easier and easier to balance the classes. Its also why most classes feel so similar.

Also, i would say there is a big difference between having abilities on your bar, and having abilities on your bar you use frequently, but i do agree with what you are saying.

[Fkiolaris]

The situation you mentioned, with the shammy needing to pop a few heals, was a pretty common one. And as such, the hybrid tax was a thing. Again, people are reading too far into this. Its balance. Plain and simple. By removing as many abilities as they can, they make it easier and easier to balance the classes. Its also why most classes feel so similar.

Also, i would say there is a big difference between having abilities on your bar, and having abilities on your bar you use frequently, but i do agree with what you are saying.

And that's the thing that really annoys me the most out of the current design paradigm: why does every ability have to have frequent use? Why can't I not have (plenty of) situational abilities that add flavour to my class/spec and differentiate one from the other? You will say "balance", but in BFA where we apparently have the best balance ever, we also have the most hollow, bland and uninteresting classes ever.

[Explicit Teemo Nudes]

Blizzard has openly stated if you refuse to take a specific tank, or a specific healer, or a specific DPS because of an affix, that affix needs to be changed. And the OP is right. Trying to heal on a grievous week with disc, is pretty much a nightmare. You only have 3 actual skills that heal directly, and if there is no mob to DPS, you only have one AoE heal. Which btw is very low healing, health wise, and has a 20 second cooldown. On the flip side, Holy priest has like 4 AoE heals, that are all great, and only one has a cooldown. I'm okay with class/spec roles being more defined, but that shouldn't alienate the player who decides to play one of them.

Oh no, holy outshining disc in one single thing in the game THE WORLD IS FALLING APART!

[BicycleMafioso]

Gpy doesn't work like that in PvE, I don't know how much damage it does exactly but it doesn't chunk bosses like it does players.

If they haven't changed it since Legion, it is based off of your own health instead.

[Xirrohon]

And this is the crowd Ion listens to, so sad. Classes are extremely shallow, dull, homogenized and you want to GET RID of more depth to classes? Go play Diablo 3 if you want 4 buttons to press dude seriously.

I specifically said Hybrid classes. Dru/Sham is mainly what I play. I use up every button, even more when you consider shapeshifting. I can see wanting more buttons if you play a shit melee like Warr, Rogue, DH, DK. When I play those classes I have like 2 entire bars open for buttons. But adding more shit to Hybrids when they already have too much is stupid. Im guessing you play DPS only toons, so you dont get it.

[mostvp71]

I specifically said Hybrid classes. Dru/Sham is mainly what I play. I use up every button, even more when you consider shapeshifting. I can see wanting more buttons if you play a shit melee like Warr, Rogue, DH, DK. When I play those classes I have like 2 entire bars open for buttons. But adding more shit to Hybrids when they already have too much is stupid. Im guessing you play DPS only toons, so you dont get it.

Actually, I play multiple toons and have been at least 2.3 on 2 hybrid classes healing or dpsing but ya I play a DPS toon and I don't get it . Stop asking for less depth within classes, BfA is the lowest point of class design the game has ever seen and you begging for more pruning is going to make it worse. Sounds like a "me" problem if you're having trouble tbqh.

[Xirrohon]

Actually, I play multiple toons and have been at least 2.3 on 2 hybrid classes healing or dpsing but ya I play a DPS toon and I don't get it . Stop asking for less depth within classes, BfA is the lowest point of class design the game has ever seen and you begging for more pruning is going to make it worse. Sounds like a "me" problem if you're having trouble tbqh.

Lowest point in class design? Not for Hybrids. On Feral, I have to put buttons onto the in game keybind because I dont have any more buttons on my UI. You want more? I think you confuse more buttons with better gameplay. There are lots of games out there that prove that isnt true.

[mostvp71]

Lowest point in class design? Not for Hybrids. On Feral, I have to put buttons onto the in game keybind because I dont have any more buttons on my UI. You want more? I think you confuse more buttons with better gameplay. There are lots of games out there that prove that isnt true.

Adding more in depth abilities = better gameplay, classes rn have zero depth to them they all do the same thing there's barely any outplay mechanics in the game anymore. If you think it's bad now, boy you would have hated WoTLK.

[Soon-TM]

Because devs wanted to bribe people into trying their !@#$ty warmode. I assumed that only people who actually like world PvP would enable warmode, but it seems like it wasn't enough, so they gated nifty skills (which in many cases used to be baseline) behind it to sweeten the deal. Which I find frankly disgusting

[Dovay]

Don't get me wrong, I don't want Blizz to trash them, but there is absolutely no reason for them to be PvP only.

Nowadays everyone and their mom or even grandma are complaining about how terrible most classes feel. Most classes are lacking tools for certain situations or have really awkward mechanics in BfA. Except PvPers. Somehow they are a lot less likely to complain about how their classes feel.

Ever tried healing a M+ as disc in Grievious-Weeks? Yeah, I'd rather jump off a cliff than try to do that. Well, guess what. There is a PvP Talent which greatly increases the healing of Power Word: Radiance and makes it instant cast. Combining this PvP Talent with the right Azerite Traits would actually make it so much less of a pain in the ass.

Let's take a look at SPriest. A class that has nothing to cast while moving. If only you could get into Voidform to at least use Voidbolt while moving. I'm sorry, got to cast Void Eruption. For no real reason. If only there was a talent to make it instant cast... like the PvP Talent.

Same thing for Demo Locks and the Master Summoner Talent. Have you tried burst healing someone with a single target heal as a MW Monk? Really awkward situation, because you have to use your AoE heal to ST heal people. Again, PvPers have the solution to that awkward gameplay in Surging Mist. Why can't Rogues pick Shiv for PvE Situations? The list goes on and on.

You get the point. Classes feel a hell of a lot better in PvP and those Talents aren't game breaking. Probably 99% of them wouldn't even need to be changed for PvE usage.


PvP Talents were implemented to reduce the "ability bloat" and to incentivize people to use War Mode (i guess). Well, neither of those worked out. Classes feel dull and without the 30% XP buff there wouldn't be a single Alliance player using War Mode. So basically they have no reason to exist the way they do right now.

This change wouldn't fix all the flaws the game has but it's a small fix which Blizzard already has in the game, only with a stupid restriction.

You say give pvpers are happy with their classes, have you even played pvp in bfa? Tuning is way out of controll, some specs feel useless and blizz does nothing about it. I feel the reason no pvper complains about the class playstyle is because blizz dont even listen to class tuning suggestions or anything from pvpers, i mean who enjoyed the addition of maledict and safeguard? Pvp is soo boring aswell that many people (myself included) eather stopped pvping or stopped playing in general. Also PvP gear should still be the best gear for PvP. Soo annoying having to farm raids and dungeons in order to be able to even play pvp...

[Florena]

The idea is to give extra pvp focused tools that they won't have to worry about while balancing pve content.

That said, doesn't mean there are no balance issues as is, but it may grow worse if they had to balance pvp talents in pve.

[Unholyground]

The game will never be balanced they need to accept this and so does the player base. They can come close but it will never be what they want.

[Misuteri]

The game will never be balanced they need to accept this and so does the player base. They can come close but it will never be what they want.

Every serious PVP player knows the game will never be balanced and fair.

We’re used to FOTM classes, combos and professions/PVE gear occasionally coming into play. Weapons from just about every final raid from TBC through Cata were always better than PVP options. Glaives, Shadowmourne, Gurthalak.. they didn’t even have to be legendaries. Twinks had to use professions for years to be BIS, especially engineering.

It’s not fair though to be farming raids for PVP gear after more than a decade of honor/conquest gear.

[kubaje]

You say give pvpers are happy with their classes, have you even played pvp in bfa? Tuning is way out of controll, some specs feel useless and blizz does nothing about it. I feel the reason no pvper complains about the class playstyle is because blizz dont even listen to class tuning suggestions or anything from pvpers, i mean who enjoyed the addition of maledict and safeguard? Pvp is soo boring aswell that many people (myself included) eather stopped pvping or stopped playing in general. Also PvP gear should still be the best gear for PvP. Soo annoying having to farm raids and dungeons in order to be able to even play pvp...

PvPers aren't complaining to the same extend as PvEers do. Classes just feel better in PvP because they have more tools. Sure, some classes may still be shit but they are less shit in PvP than in PvE.

I know that some things are terrible in PvP right know but that's more of a philosophy thing than pure class design.

My entire point is that classes feel better in PvP than in PvE due to PvP Talents.

[Dovay]

PvPers aren't complaining to the same extend as PvEers do. Classes just feel better in PvP because they have more tools. Sure, some classes may still be shit but they are less shit in PvP than in PvE.

I know that some things are terrible in PvP right know but that's more of a philosophy thing than pure class design.

My entire point is that classes feel better in PvP than in PvE due to PvP Talents.

I dont know if i can agree, in legion i would’ve agreed tho, but bfa its just horrible that you can only have 3 and most abilities dont improve playstyle. Some of them should even be baseline, it was a system that worked in legion, sadly its ratter dull imo in bfa

[Spotnick]

Because nobody was happy when Blizzard decided to nerf stuff that were useful in raids because they were too good in PVE.

Like the day they decided to add forbearance to the game and suddenly you couldn't bubble and lay on hand in the same minute because that was too good in pvp.

Personally I hated them in Legion because my abilities changed by themselves while doing a world boss and since I don't pvp I had no reason why and knowledge of.. stuff became instant with a cooldown and that was a frustrating experience.

I would prefer to not distinguish pve and pvp talents so my action bars and binds would be unique, but what can we say.. it's the way they decided to go. Back in the days they just made one spec viable for pvp and not pve, so was that really better?