Retri paladin off healing is fucking stupid

[Overlordd]

I don't care, if you can do an instant cast while I used sharpen blade (he didn't use lay on hands) and still regain half your health, something is very wrong if you are not a healing spec.
I fucking hate paladins so much. How do I counter them as a warrior (arms)?

[Magical Mudcrab]

How do I counter them as a warrior (arms)?

The games PVP is rock-paper-scissors. Paladin are one of Warrior's counters... the only way for you to counter them is to hope they bugger up.

[msdos]

The game has gotten to the point where if you can off heal competently, you can hit 2k.

Sorry about that.

[therealstegblob]

Paladins in general are pretty mongomode right now. Prot Paladins are topping healing logs in Mythic Uldir and I believe some of the highest ranked people in arenas are Prot Paladins right now. Ret isn't nearly as bad but it's slightly annoying. I used to be able to steamroll almost any Ret (unless they were VERY good which in that case it was at least a bit of a challenge) and now I have trouble with bad ones if I don't use CDs the right way.

Ret is whatever (why would you do arenas anyways lol) but Prot needs to be nerfed immediately.

[Demsi]

I'm guessing the paladin got a lucky crit with Word of Glory.

Ret is pretty strong 1v1 against melee, but struggles a lot against rangeds such as mage and Hunters, but you should keep in mind that pvp is not balanced around 1v1.

[Saverem]

I don't care, if you can do an instant cast while I used sharpen blade (he didn't use lay on hands) and still regain half your health, something is very wrong if you are not a healing spec.
I fucking hate paladins so much. How do I counter them as a warrior (arms)?

Paladins are also the bane of my existence as a Monk. They can just BoP whoever I put my ToK/ToD on and make my best defense and offensive CDs completely USELESS.

Fuck that boring pinko class.

[Autoriot]

Paladins in general are pretty mongomode right now. Prot Paladins are topping healing logs in Mythic Uldir and I believe some of the highest ranked people in arenas are Prot Paladins right now. Ret isn't nearly as bad but it's slightly annoying. I used to be able to steamroll almost any Ret (unless they were VERY good which in that case it was at least a bit of a challenge) and now I have trouble with bad ones if I don't use CDs the right way.

Ret is whatever (why would you do arenas anyways lol) but Prot needs to be nerfed immediately.

Hm... seems most paladins in 3v3 (or 2v2) are Holy, only a couple top 100 are ret, no prot in sight. Although admittedly it is hard to be 100% sure on this, i'm only judging it on how they logged out. https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ga...aderboards/3v3


Prot is topping Mythic Uldir healing logs? HAHA, good one.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...nks&dataset=90 or https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...Any&dataset=90

No they aren't, they're even not evening beating VDH or Brewmasters in overall healing atm, much less BDKs. (yes the first link is set to overall healing, not just self healing).

Also how would they, the only good heal is a 15 sec CD. At best you can reduce that some through Bastion of Light and Righteous Protector, plus SoTR, but nowhere near enough to out heal actual healers. Also flash of light spamming does almost nothing and you're oom in 6 casts or something like that.

The only time Prot was good at raid healing would be in Legion with the shorter HotP cooldown and the double charge legendary helm, and even then they were only good at getting people up from low health (terrible at topping them off). They also had lots of absorbs then which counted towards self healing, of which they have none of those in BfA unless you get the underwhelming Bulwark of Light talent.

[therealstegblob]

Hm... seems most paladins in 3v3 (or 2v2) are Holy, only a couple top 100 are ret, no prot in sight.

I've personally seen several people floating around 2600 who play Prot either in a lot of arenas or all of their arenas. Prot+DPS is also somewhat common in 2s (though I dunno how high you can mong 2v2 rating doing this).

Prot is topping Mythic Uldir healing logs? HAHA, good one.

There were several prot paladins on the healing logs for Uldir bosses, yup. I never said they topped the meters all around or anything. I can't find my screenshot I took of three prot Paladins being the 1/2/3rd spot of Paladin healing done for Mythic MOTHER.

[Toppy]

The games PVP is rock-paper-scissors. Paladin are one of Warrior's counters... the only way for you to counter them is to hope they bugger up.

What counters Paladin then?

Paladin as of now is ok against any range and a direct counter to anything melee.

[Magical Mudcrab]

What counters Paladin then?

Paladin as of now is ok against any range and a direct counter to anything melee.

Traditionally more mobile melee and most ranged classes with good kiting abilities (i.e.: Mage, Hunter) should decimate a Ret Paladin of equal skill in 1v1s.

[kenn9530]

There were several prot paladins on the healing logs for Uldir bosses, yup. I never said they topped the meters all around or anything. I can't find my screenshot I took of three prot Paladins being the 1/2/3rd spot of Paladin healing done for Mythic MOTHER.

you do know there is a tactic in which there is only 2 times where the raid actually takes any real damage so there is very little healing to actually do on mother, most of the time the raid is just avoiding beams and shit, so mythic mother is not really a boss to evaluate any performance apart from just paying attention. Tanks should be the only ones taking damage apart from the 2 times the raid moves through the barrier.

[Autoriot]

I've personally seen several people floating around 2600 who play Prot either in a lot of arenas or all of their arenas. Prot+DPS is also somewhat common in 2s (though I dunno how high you can mong 2v2 rating doing this).

Fair enough, Prot Pally has often become a fairly strong contender in Arena, even being a staple one of the arena tournaments (and they were nerfed after as a result). You did say some of the "top ranked in arena" in your initial post, which was an exaggeration. They can reach a good rank but I wouldn't say top.

There were several prot paladins on the healing logs for Uldir bosses, yup. I never said they topped the meters all around or anything. I can't find my screenshot I took of three prot Paladins being the 1/2/3rd spot of Paladin healing done for Mythic MOTHER.

You said they were topping healing logs in Mythic Uldir, how does that not mean they're topping meters or matching other healers? What, they're performing better than some tanks and dps in healing? wowee. If even in your limited situation (which you exaggerated to they're strong healers throughout a whole raid), there must have been some crazy cheese strat and/or terrible performance to 1) Have 3 tanks? all being prot pallies 2) Have them do the most healing.

Highest prot pally healing log on that fight is 14k hps, having even 12k hps would put you at top 5 in the world. BDKs do twice that, with you needing to do 25k to be top 5. To be a top healer overall on that fight (disregarding class), you need 32k hps to crack the top 100 (this is for comparison sakes, what a REAL healer does at the top end, not an afk or braindead healer).

So again, how the heck is Prot Pally "topping healing logs" in Mythic Uldir? Please tell me you didn't base your whole argument on one pull with a pug group (guessing not organized since you don't have a log handy) where the healers probably died early and the 3?? prot pallies finished stronger than dead healers.

or what the above posted mentioned too.

[Toppy]

Traditionally more mobile melee and most ranged classes with good kiting abilities (i.e.: Mage, Hunter) should decimate a Ret Paladin of equal skill in 1v1s.

Except that isnt currently the case.

[mmmmmmmBacon]

Except that isnt currently the case.

Any class with the ability to kite/control a Ret will have no problem breaking them apart. Divine Steed and Blessing of Freedom are very easily dealt with as a mage or hunter. Care to enlighten us otherwise?

And as for their off-healing: yes it's pretty strong...for the 2 globals that cost 3 holy power each and have a 60 second recharge. After that there's not too much to rely on.

[Yhcti]

Guessing youve never played vs a boomkin or spriest the amount of hate i get after a game of disc/boomy is pretty hilarious.

[Kynreve]

I don't care, if you can do an instant cast while I used sharpen blade (he didn't use lay on hands) and still regain half your health, something is very wrong if you are not a healing spec.
I fucking hate paladins so much. How do I counter them as a warrior (arms)?

You don't. When it comes to 1v1 pvp, rets excel at it. Ret pala and assassin rogue are currently the best duelists. Arms warrior is just an arena spec that doesn't really work without a healer lodged deep up its butt.

- - - Updated - - -

Traditionally more mobile melee and most ranged classes with good kiting abilities (i.e.: Mage, Hunter) should decimate a Ret Paladin of equal skill in 1v1s.

No such thing anymore. Casters are shit at pvp, can't kite anything, and the only ranged spec that can kite, BM hunter, does too low damage and will eventually lose a 1v1 fight of attrition with a ret because the ret keeps healing, bubbling and using ranged attacks and ponies, while the hunter's HP only goes one way: down.

[Jester Joe]

No such thing anymore. Casters are shit at pvp, can't kite anything, and the only ranged spec that can kite, BM hunter, does too low damage and will eventually lose a 1v1 fight of attrition with a ret because the ret keeps healing, bubbling and using ranged attacks and ponies, while the hunter's HP only goes one way: down.

Root, spellsteal Freedom, snare/slow.

Congratz, the ret can't do anything now. Even if they cancel Freedom before you can spellsteal it, they're still weak against snares/slows now.

I mean, it's already a bit silly to act like ret's damage even comes from ranged attacks when ret suffers horribly right now from 75-80% of our damage coming from our melee finisher. Sure, we can build a bit of HoPo at a ranged, to do nothing with it if you keep kiting them.

[Swalload]

I don't care, if you can do an instant cast while I used sharpen blade (he didn't use lay on hands) and still regain half your health, something is very wrong if you are not a healing spec.
I fucking hate paladins so much. How do I counter them as a warrior (arms)?

Well you first have to realize the game is not balanced. Some people will collect their free win over you just because of what they picked and how Blizzard wants the game to go. If you're looking for a fun pvp experience or balanced gameplay, 15 years of data proves that you won't find it in WoW.

[Craaazyyy]

Well you first have to realize the game is not balanced. Some people will collect their free win over you just because of what they picked and how Blizzard wants the game to go. If you're looking for a fun pvp experience or balanced gameplay, 15 years of data proves that you won't find it in WoW.

thats just not true(well its true currently, but wasnt always true)

WoW PVP used to be extremely fun and relatively balanced as well.. its just that pointing out one single thing that you PERSONALLY THINK is op is just stupid..

WoW pvp now isnt fun because they basically pruned all the fun from the game, but its actually fairly balanced.. its just not balanced around 1v1, and definitely not balanced around specific 1v1 situations..

[Kynreve]

Well you first have to realize the game is not balanced. Some people will collect their free win over you just because of what they picked and how Blizzard wants the game to go. If you're looking for a fun pvp experience or balanced gameplay, 15 years of data proves that you won't find it in WoW.

Not true. You just have to play the right thing.

There are some classes and specs that are very likely to always be...the right thing. Rogue for example. Rogues are always OP in at least one of their specs, and when they're not, it's only temporary before Blizzard buffs them. This is obviously for casual pvp like 1v1, wpvp and random bgs.

There are two types of PVP in WoW: Unrated and Rated.
Unrated: duels, wpvp, random bgs.
Rated: arena and rbgs.

Classes and specs like arms/fury warrior, shadow priest, elemental shaman, balance druid, warlock, are historically BAD at unrated PVP, while at the same time being good and very good for rated PVP.

Likewise there are classes and specs like rogue, ret paladin, ww monk, feral druid, hunter, that are are historically GOOD at unrated pvp, while at the same time not really shining in rated PVP.

And then there are the wild cards: classes and specs that seem to ride a rollercoaster between op-ness and absolute dogshit. I would put here enhancement shaman, dk and mage. You never know when and at what are these guys good, before they get nerfed or buffed and then nerfed or buffed again, as Blizzard doesn't have any idea what to do with these guys.

The main issue arises when someone playing a class/spec from one category wants to excel at the other category or at both, and there is no such thing, as Blizzard is incapable of balancing both pve and pvp at the same time. They can't even balance Overwatch which is a 100% pvp game, let alone a primarily pve game like WoW.