If Blizzard had reverted to the old talent system

[Aggrophobic]

Actually, yes really. Are you really going to make me list them out just for you to flippantly wave them away even though it's clear you have no clue what you're talking about?

PVP
Conflag is a phenomenal PvP spec, is not PvE viable and requires BWL-tier levels of crit.
SL/NF is a great PvP spec at all levels of gear, relying on tankiness and fishing for procs while spamming DoTs and staying mobile.

PVE
SM/Ruin is the classic go-to spec because it's great for raids and performs well in BGs and open world content as well.
DS/Ruin is the absolute top-tier raid spec, outperforming SM/Ruin if the Warlcok doesn't get a debuff slot for Corruption, but is about as glass-cannony as you can get in 1.12 and as such falls behind in other content.

Farming
Dark Pact builds on a decently geared Warlock will give them infinite mana and essentially allow them to chain mobs endlessly. It shines when multi-dotting.
DSac builds use a similar strategy only using the Demo tree, saccing VW for %HP regen and therefore being able to spam Lifetap. The tradeoff of slightly more downtime is a lot more emergency utility via Demo talents.

6 top-tier builds, all viable. At least two options depending on what you were wanting to do, not counting homebrew/one-trick specs that could perform very well in their own right. Extra talent points in every single one of the builds to allow for personal preference - and no, it wasn't insignificant it was entire abilities that dramatically changed gameplay (like taking CoEx).

Go ahead and handwave it away now little sheep.

As you wish: You're wrong.

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But it doesn't. You use a cookie cutter spec, just like before.

Then you're not doing it right.

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You can believe what you want but there was most certainly choice. Of course people would go a basic route, but you had options. Not like now. There is a clear best set of talents. And if you don't pick those specific talents you're done. You clearly have no idea wtf you're talking about.

No, you got the two mixed up.

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It's the same as you in the end go for the core talents with the new and the old system. The fillers in the old is just now built into the character it self. You'd respec with the old one aswell, it was just too expensive to do it to get 2% more AOE on a cleave fight.
The balance is better? Is it one thing Blizzard got zero clue how to do, it's balancing talents and classes. It is a reason there are cookie cutter builds, because one is always superior. If it was balanced you'd see more diversity in talents.

So if they added back the old system, and kept the new respec system (you only need to be in a city or at an inn to respecc with zero cost), it would be pretty much the exact same thing, just more buttons to click to get to the exact same core talents. How is that so hard to comprehend?

A note though, I've never said the old one is better. I just prefer it, as I started playing WoW back in Vanilla because it was an MMORPG and not a MOBA in MMO shape. I loved that we actually had to make decisions; "do I want to be an 2h axe warrior, or a DW warrior?" and if you'd change that later on it would cost you. Now you just toss in talents wherever you wanted, and if you want to do a dungeon you swap over to Protection and queue up.

So as I've said a couple of times in this thread, the sense of progress is gone, and the new talent system is one of the many reasons.

Actually, the balance now is far, far better than in Vanilla, TBC and Wrath. It's actually silly how good the balance is with as many classes and options within each class and spec. It'll never be perfect of course but still.

[Schattenlied]

Then you're not doing it right.

Same could be said about thinking there was no choice in the old system. Both had cookie cutter builds that you used 99% of the time, and situational builds you used the other 1%, but were never necessary.

[Big Thanks]

Can you actually answer my question, what choice did I have as a resto druid? Comparing to today's for example monk's playstyle as I mentioned.

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Druid_builds/Level_80

Check at the end

There were 4 different PvP specs for Druid healers alone.
Yes, WotlK was the best customization this game ever had IMO

edit: Ok, the links dont work anymore...sorry about that.

But i saw a private server forum saying this also:

I. Talent Tree Specialization

I wont go through BG specs (If people are interested in a BG spec - I will update the thread).

These are the two main specs I have used in Arena and both of them are really good it all boils down to your comp and your playstyle, Keep in mind you are free to alter points more to your playstyle.


With the increased crit from your Moonfire, Wrath and also the ability to decrease your opponents the hit chance of your target - With chain cyclones you can really help pile on the pressure to get that killing blow. - Also the mana reduction makes your mana pool even more OP.

The increased armor and the the ability to interrupt is very handy when you are out of cyclones and your opponent is low and you need those extra seconds, The lesser used of the two but when used right this spec is very neat. - Also the increased stealthing is nice when facing rouge comps.

There were definetely different specs for healer back then.

[Big Thanks]

Uhm, what variety? You couldn't change your playstyle as a resto druid via different builds. You could tweak something but nothing serious. I have been playing druid first three expansions, so don't even start, please.

I just presented you with facts and you completely disregard them :S

Just because you played back then it doesnt mean you were well informed or even if you theorycrafted a build yourself.

There is:
Feral Charge/Resto (0/37/34) - This built dates back to the Burning Crusade, when arenas first started and Restoration druids dominated. Works well with a Warrior and other melee classes.

Restokin aka Dreamstate (31/0/40) - With the new changes to Moonkins in 3.2.2, this spec is the new hottest and better than IC as far as pushing dps. You can still heal efficiently also. Suggestion is to use this spec with a Mut Rogue, Elemental Shaman, or Warlock (depending on spec).

Lunar Guidance/Resto (23/0/48) - This spec is built for cleave teams. In other words, 3v3 bracket.

Deep Restoration (13/0/58) - Used in the 5v5 bracket.

[jackofwind]

As you wish: You're wrong.

Pretty much what I expected - you actually have no clue what you're talking about, can't back up your claims, and likely don't even have any relevant experience to the topic. Either that or you're just shitposting and hoping for a forum vacation.

Either way, stay small.

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Uhm, what variety? You couldn't change your playstyle as a resto druid via different builds. You could tweak something but nothing serious. I have been playing druid first three expansions, so don't even start, please.

Even the difference between Deep Resto and and Dreamstate Resto was massive. Then you also had the FC and LG specs that were much more than what you call "tweaks".

Just because you didn't know shit and were bad doesn't mean the builds weren't played.

[Kithelle]

What is the difference? It's all the same...most of your points were spent in boosting these skills or those skills. This just cuts out the raw stat boost talents and gives you the same few big talents.

[jackofwind]

What is the difference? It's all the same...most of your points were spent in boosting these skills or those skills. This just cuts out the raw stat boost talents and gives you the same few big talents.

Only for some classes. Some, like the 1.12 Warlock trees, changed your gameplay dramatically.

[Kithelle]

Only for some classes. Some, like the 1.12 Warlock trees, changed your gameplay dramatically.

There honestly weren't a whole lot of specs that could function well with a hybrid build, not saying there was none...but not a whole many.

[jackofwind]

There honestly weren't a whole lot of specs that could function well with a hybrid build, not saying there was none...but not a whole many.

That's not what you first brought up though, you talked about talent trees only boosting certain skills and most points being worthless. That's not true at all for certain classes, like Warlock as an example where a lot of mixing and matching occurred (to get combinations of SM/NF/SL/DS/Ruin/DP/Conf).

I guess if that's what you mean by hybrid builds, but almost no classes took every point in a single talent tree for any spec.

[Cracka_Bob]

A large part of the problem with the old talent system now is they would need 110 points to put into it and the trees would just look ridiculous. What the game really really really needs in my opinion is a level squish. 120 is just too damn much to try design around.

If they did bring it back, it wouldn't be so bad if they changed it so that you get a point every 2 levels (after 10) instead of every level

[Armourboy]

one spec? in vanilla it was very hard to change your spec. today you can change your spec with ease. What the heck are you talking about.
All I said is that most new talents have their uses and I find myself switching depends on the type of fight. between m+ and raiding & pvp. I dunno why you said there is no real choice in current talents.

I changed mine almost daily, it wasnt that hard.

There is no more choice today than at any other point. The only difference is you can do it on the fly now.

[Uriel]

So what you are saying is it is better now, thanks...... Of course there is going to be carry over, Weapomaster makes sense but picking which weapon to use was poor design as there were raids that did not have a sword but swords were best so you were pigeonholed into something. You now mae signifficant choices instead of illusions of choice.......well I have to put 2 more points in row 3 even though all the talents here are terrible but that row 4 and 5 have what I want but only 1 point worth in row 5 .......yup that was awesome design......................As for abilities for free the old talents had abilities on row 3,5,7 in most cases, not sure what you are talking about.....like your whole post swing and a miss.

You know what? I like you mate. I think its funny how you contradict yourself. You said weaponmaster pigeonholds yourself into something and you are correct. Most people didnt bother to respec each raid based on weapon drops. Doing that too often soon costs a pile of gold. So you needed to make a careful decision because you couldnt just respec. I guess we can agree on that right? And then you say this:

You now mae signifficant choices instead of illusions of choice.

So you are saying carefully deciding what spec would be worth it and being stuck with it for quite some time is a less significant choice than now where you can respec your talent points before each raidboss?

By the way Sword Spec wasnt always the best. Depending on Spec and gear Axe mastery gave you more crit and as a Warrior crit was quite important, same as some Rogue specs. And Mace Spec just dominated in PVP. So you want to PVP after a long raidnight? Guess what you cant just respec your talents for free. But yeah, your choices now are MUCH more significant in BFA. You heard it here first Kids!



You dont understand what I mean with getting abilities? Maybe rereading my post helps? Reading comprehension is quite rare these days isnt it? But as I am quite generous today I will explain it to you again:

Did you notice that your bars are more empty now that before? Thats why abilities that you got at your class trainer for some silver and that your class had for years are now made talents. To give you an example: Take Paladin Auras. You got them very early at your class trainer for very little money. Now you have to spec for it. You sacrifice 1 Talentpoint for something that you got for free back in the days. If you compare that to now you would have had auras baseline and gotten like 5%crit for that talentpoint you could spend in that tree whereever you liked.

You say that back in the days some rows werent interesting or didnt offer that much of improvement. Yes you are correct, but guess what: thats still the case. Take Retribution Pala as example. Row 45 and 90 dont offer something meaningfull. Sure you can toss some offheals around or stun in some way or another, but it doesnt really impact your character that much. Back in the days there were boring rows, but at least you got more choices or could spend your points in another Spezification tree. Claiming that Talents are better than in the past is like buying a bag of Skittles, but there are only red ones inside the box. So much choice to be had there.

[Nfinitii]

After playing fallout 76, there is something satisfying about putting points into something every level. Something wow leveling severally lacks. A return to something similar to old talent trees would require a level squish, something I think wow needs.

I think over all wow needs to remove many qol changes and streamline changes.

[Alkizon]

Sorotia
What is the difference? It's all the same...most of your points were spent in boosting these skills or those skills. This just cuts out the raw stat boost talents and gives you the same few big talents.

But this exactly is purpose of talents, since classes design implies a completely different kind rather than stupidity that they made of it.

There're no classes in their ideal World of design, just 4 (t/h/rdd/mdd) roles and 36 specs with different sets of icons for abilities.

Ie, hierarchy of choice and gameplay in general was approximately the following (in opposed to current one):

racial part goes cross-classes (bonuses, base animations), class' (abilities and mechanics) part goes cross-specs (build = talents), talents' part goes cross-roles, since last one is mostly controlled by “momentary choice”: priority of abilities, used gear and other temporary "progress" stuff

Technically, what you argue about as part of content is 1. "situational" every second choice + 2. choice that is made within system's work for a fairly long time together (both are parts of one system): 2. is "permanent" not for 1 fight, but for a while before meeting with class trainer together with loosing time and money for "re-qualifies" you (it's class “umbrella”, which consists of full set of class' abilities (mostly permanent completely) and, being overwhelming majority of them passively, talents of build (not spec)) - choice, and 1. consists of equipped items (= characteristics) + particular using spells during encounter - flexible options.

1) main role was given to classes design and their mechanics as a whole;
2) talents were mainly responsible for tuning choice of preferences in mechanics and directions of development of this class;
3) characteristics to a greater extent strengthened role component for character as member of the group (with proper ingenuity it could be almost any class and any field of activity, characteristics system allowed to do this, here we could also remember about professions' role).
There was no any space for f* "specs" in this hierarchy, build was your "spec". Considering all this, whole idea of “PvP perks”(also) isn't only stupid as itself, but also design of most of them is absolutely irrelevant and redundant... and fact that there are people with a lack of analytical thinking who consider them "original", well it's so with any system - impossible to make everyone think more globally. And no any balance has more power in these particular conditions, for it comes down only to simple mathematical manipulations for this system, since this requirements has higher priority.

- He assumes that everyone chooses a piece of clothing depending on general characteristics he/she prefers for the own role (it could be even rogue tank/support, everything possible, gear is your role not you class, remember DKs from WotLK, that's why guardian/feral fills no problem in been at the same talent branch, but they changed/broke it). They aren't tied to character general progression (= class; unlike silly AA), they are tied to progress in expansion (= gear). And there is no such stupid stuff like many random items on 1 id = scaling to ilvl/lvl/spec (scaling/RNG=automatic=not your choice≈no choice for current system); characteristics are fixed on this particular item (you can disturb them a little with reforging and that's all, than put more effort with professions and here you go - you have all control over your castimization):
You have control over choose which item you need, know where and how get it and how you will custom it.
- Hail the player, f*ck devs' dictatorship

kalaratic

- everything, that goes under base spellkit, is for talents/items-sets -

and don't forget this part (no stat scaling with spec)

Yes, not everyone did it well, but they made attempts to understand, mash the brain at least. We aren't even talking about this, but about whole system (classes(mechanics)+talents+stats/characteristics+tuning=RPG), it was much less complicated before! easier to analyze and understand than now. Naturally, yes, you don't need to understand it to play now, but if you suddenly will want, it'll probably take more time... and for what? Most of dependencies and information are not even tied to your character, but lying around somewhere in the mud (PvP talents, Azerite armor, etc.) tightly adhered to it and not accessible to you. Therefore, as one of the most lazy, but curious people, I would gladly change current system to old one at any time.

Exactly then it was possible since such system let hybrid classes exist, and what became of them now? What become with all various characteristics that not so much reinforced "absolute" indicators of characters strength, but more players' "role" choice, even if taking into account "holy trinity" (also, this isn't ultimate truth because I repeat - don't forget support, which is 4th)? That is, any class was able to at least partially fulfill not only role assigned to it by devs, and therefore even "holy trinity" based encounters design didn't severely limit group as a whole (unbalanced from current point of view) abilities.

Even DK, which appeared in WotLK (MoP monks weren't already), still confessed this "religion", because tanking/dd role completely depended on character RPG customization... but now... everything depends on chosen "spec" and no one care what player thinks about it (the whole "role" RPG part is integrated inside it and you can't change anything), we have only one opportunity to play - the way it was decided by Blizzard and nothing else (by the way, "gladiators" part was the only bright ray in dark realm of specs after "design cataclysm" that destroyed everything, but it was just an exception, and what became of them only proves my point).

Smart players brought characters to necessary condition for their preferences in gameplay using all these three mechanisms. The only problem is that devs themselves became so stupid and entangled in this system over time, that players began overplay them in terms of ingenuity, which led to noticeable loss of control by devs and as a result of which they began "build walls" and "restrict players' capabilities" everywhere wherever possible, which of course reduced number of "unintended" branches (this is moment when balance ceased to somehow depend on players and completely passed into devs hands), but didn't add any wisdom to executors, and most players deprived of interest and sense in trying to understand any of it themselves (this isn't much necessary for comfortable game now, there're practically no ceilings (content checkpoints to check your abilities and capabilities, and here you should feel connection of all previous with global game design), and in case of special difficulties, due to illogicality/inconsistencies of the whole system, you always could (≈compelled) see "somewhere" what and why you using "wrong").

ps. Main advantage of old trees wasn't diversity (although it was, global system allowed to have it, but why? and answer is further), but freedom to choose each/any/little step of progress/castimization elements without violating class priorities. In other words, what was previously part of choice is no longer one = it's spec's default package now, but what was previously available to class as such has become "choice element" and not even everything, but only stuff, that devs decided for this spec... imo, deal is wildly unfair.

You "like frost", well, in old system you're frost by your choice (you decided to use only frost and take appropriate talents, that will support this direction in first place), but in new system you're frost because you have no choice. You have your boundaries outlined without your participation and aren't allowed to go beyond them even a little bit (you aren't allowed to make it/system assumes that user is to stupid to make it by self, define that boundaries), so here you choose from ready-made solutions, you don't design anything, which means you don't make a meaningful choice, you just obey some of system's ones. So which one is better, which limits or encourages choice?

their unpruning now looks incoherent first of all exactly because they're just "pieces" of something big you don't have, which devs still don't want to return to you.

Some words about AoE cap:

So, it's something like this.

I withdraw my claims, a very specific division is underway, maybe numbers can be adjusted a little more accurately somewhere, but this is rather balance problem and in general - nothing much unpleasant. However, I won't withdraw my comments on encounters' management and design, they are fair and relevant and will also help to curb situation partly.

Strictly speaking, it wasn't so necessary to cut amount, just do significantly increase/emphasize reduction of base damage, which will be cut by each next target, thus cap will remain "soft", but "with massive influx of recipients" cleaves abilities will be much inferior to real mass ones. That is, there will be division, but at the same time there will be much less reason to raise a special hype. Something like each new N target will cut damage by another 15% from previous one (i.e. from N-1, with no reduction if N = 1, so 100(1)/85(2)/72(3)/61(4)/51(5)/43(6)/36(7)/30(8)/25(9)..% of base damage), while leaving high "price" of resource for ability, which will continue to make it unprofitable for use on 1 target.

Some word about CDs' issue from EU forum:
~ As I understand it, people are asking for more smeared/stable damage policy, rather than just unnecessarily exaggerated peak one, for a number of very pertinent reasons. Moreover, part of hybrid/support gameplay policy was based on exhausting enemy with slow build-up/maintenance of potential, which is very good alternative to current samely gameplay (they could "stand to" in PvP events thanks to this, and could be useful if necessary in PvE - smear/compensate negative/imperfection/insufficiency part as opposed to "pure/strait" classes). People has a decent point here, I must say. In other words, there used to be marathon runners and there were sprinters and even sometimes their hybrids, which itself isn't bad at all for class&gameplay diversity.

2. Characteristics (&shame to PvP talent system + time-gate/catch-up, item-case) +(+/+/+/+/+/+)+/+/+
3. Classes philosophies+ (&thier coherence with whole design+resource/supports/balance) +(+/+/+/+/+/+/+/+)+(+)+/+
4. Some words about talents (&their connection with classes, borrowed powers) +(+/+)+(+/+/+)+(+/+/+/+/+/+/+)

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2nd part - < Deleted with "4th spec" topic - saved from google cache >

How about they fix, at first, everything they broke, show players, that they understand hierarchy of priorities in design.
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most of ideas presented here aren't constructive in any way, simply because majority continues to think in terms of "specs", not classes, and they don’t understand that in order to add new direction of specialization, it’s necessary to expand functionality of entire class (you want melee hunter+ (interesting threads, with a lot of good points here)? you give melee functionality to all hunters: 3rd slot for distant weapons with leaving first two for close combat, and additional mechanics&abilities), rather than split classes into specializations (otherwise it just doesn't work, see hierarchy), but within framework of their current mechanics vast majority of ideas mentioned here simply can't shove inside; even those in stock, are "castrated"
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Therefore, all this rubbish, is empty shake of information space, and their moving in this direction will only aggravate discord in design with all ensuing consequences... and it’s absolutely not important here what I/you/devs want, main thing is what design should be like for system to fulfill its functional purpose.

Нow this all works? You take lore, clarify all possible classes mechanics, which will be their canonical distinguishing feature within the game (in this case, it can be easily skipped, because class design already had this state in framework of game’s history, suppose that it was somewhere between WotLK and BC, so next), sprinkle this functionality with functionally non-changing, but only complementary, tasty "dessert" mechanics of subsequent expansions (don’t see any reason to discard random good ideas even from “mediocre” former/current team members) - we get formed&working class system !of each of their representatives! What to do next? Now you need to think about talents that will make this or that class mechanics more convenient/preferable to use, while some mechanics can get, in sense, interdependent state thereby forming specialization area. After all this, we look at whether all available mechanics are taken into account in areas of specialization, if not... here already optional action will begin: let it be as it is, add them somewhere, or there could be formed additional specialization on their basis. Moreover! this choice had no dictatorial impact for player’s individual preferences regarding “RP” component, and no matter what mechanics were chosen as preferred, still rogue with any set of talents could be just duelist or pirate, secret agent, ninja and anyone else at player's will. [Axiom] Class' names aren't what "they" are within game system component (just conditional separation), but key mechanics are. They are your class, which means they are mandatory for each of its representatives (and there can be even no talk in framework of this design about "modern way" understanding of specs; build is your spec here). - set of posts in "after pre-SL" talkings - here some of later stuff +

...but not bloodthirsty charge into classes in berserk mode shouting "It's Time To Slice&Dice!"

ps. And then you look at what characteristics can help players in choosing their role, which ones will be mandatory for particular sphere of game content, and which are universal, which will be preferable for one role, and which for another... then it goes issue of itemization... and so on, and so on.

[Powerogue]

The old talent trees now would be ludicrous. We'd have 120 points to spend, and very few builds that are considered acceptable.

Legion expanded on the concept really well. BFA flopped with it in my opinion because there wasn't a sense of the progression lasting. You just get new armor and re-grind the same traits you had before, almost always. Then the monsters scale up with your traits, so you don't get even a pinch stronger effectively. In Legion, the traits were exempt from this and mobs only scaled to your stats, not artifact traits.

[Tyrilion]

Did you even play when talent trees were set up like this? Just because there were a lot of buttons doesn't mean anyone with half a brain didn't use the cookie cutter build

I think when these were a thing i wasn't raiding hard-core so i just played how i wanted.. guess its more nostalgia than anything else

[Aggrophobic]

Same could be said about thinking there was no choice in the old system. Both had cookie cutter builds that you used 99% of the time, and situational builds you used the other 1%, but were never necessary.

1%? Nah, thats still not it.

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Pretty much what I expected - you actually have no clue what you're talking about, can't back up your claims, and likely don't even have any relevant experience to the topic. Either that or you're just shitposting and hoping for a forum vacation.

Either way, stay small.

But I do and I did. I just don't see the point in repeating myself. Keep up the personal insults though. That'll get you far in life.

[grexly75]

The old talent trees now would be ludicrous. We'd have 120 points to spend, and very few builds that are considered acceptable.

Legion expanded on the concept really well. BFA flopped with it in my opinion because there wasn't a sense of the progression lasting. You just get new armor and re-grind the same traits you had before, almost always. Then the monsters scale up with your traits, so you don't get even a pinch stronger effectively. In Legion, the traits were exempt from this and mobs only scaled to your stats, not artifact traits.

I remember the nightmare of the old talent system, nightmare in that of having to either remember what you chose when resetting them.. And or taking a screen shot before hand then the chore of clicking so much of this ability, only to swear when you put too much into one ability and having to reset it all over again and start from scratch..

My thinking of why we never saw any new permanent spells and abilities in Legion and more so in BfA, is that they probably ran out of either good ideas or probably didn't want the hassle of having to balance all the new spells and abilities..

It sucks we never did get any new ones, but it is the way it goes sometimes..

[Keren]

you kinda made the whole topic invalid for me when you I read "Warriors gain Charge Stun back"..

currents talent tree provide more freedom, ability to prepare for a boss fight (as in change talents) and make it easier to actually achieve some kind of balance for blizzard

[Noxina]

As you wish: You're wrong.

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Then you're not doing it right.

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No, you got the two mixed up.

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Actually, the balance now is far, far better than in Vanilla, TBC and Wrath. It's actually silly how good the balance is with as many classes and options within each class and spec. It'll never be perfect of course but still.

Of course the balance is better now, they have had 14 years to improve it. It's not like if they'd revert back to the old system, they would ditch the current core talents.
So balance isn't an issue at all.

But what ever, it's a moot point anyways.