If Blizzard had reverted to the old talent system

[Rotted]

Can you actually answer my question, what choice did I have as a resto druid? Comparing to today's for example monk's playstyle as I mentioned.

Why are you insisting on comparing a class designed recently - fairly balanced by practically a new team against a completely different class from the past?

[rohoz]

Why are you insisting on comparing a class designed recently - fairly balanced by practically a new team against a completely different class from the past?

even if you compare it to live druid it's the same. you play a lot differently now than you did back then.

[Kithelle]

snip

Except it isn't like that...if anything BfA is the assembled burger and the Pre-MoP is the pick and choose.

You had to spend so many points just so you can get 20% to this ability....+15% to two other abilities...you have blow so many points just to assemble a decent burger.

Please stop with this hybrid BS...there were so few good hybrid builds...most build had you go to the bottom of your primary spec tree and then fill out the rest of the points in other trees for little bonuses.

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The old talent trees now would be ludicrous. We'd have 120 points to spend, and very few builds that are considered acceptable.

Legion expanded on the concept really well. BFA flopped with it in my opinion because there wasn't a sense of the progression lasting. You just get new armor and re-grind the same traits you had before, almost always. Then the monsters scale up with your traits, so you don't get even a pinch stronger effectively. In Legion, the traits were exempt from this and mobs only scaled to your stats, not artifact traits.

But...but it wouldn't be ludicrous....it would be cool! Because!

Because it would be fun to blow 90+ points speccing boosts to your primary abilities! It would be epic to spend 5 points to get 20% damage to Mortal Strike and 5 more to get 15% more damage to Slam! Oh can't forget how mindblowingly sweet it is to spend 5 points for a 10% bonus to execute!

NOOOOOO! Having those bonuses already rolled into your abilities is LAME!

[varren]

Old talent tree was better for leveling since you got to click a button every time you dinged. Prefer the new system for everything else.

[jackofwind]

1%? Nah, thats still not it.

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But I do and I did. I just don't see the point in repeating myself. Keep up the personal insults though. That'll get you far in life.

I'm pretty far ahead in life, thanks.

Meanwhile you're doing nothing to support your claims, you're just spitting out one-liners. If you want people to take you seriously and not just call you out for shitposting then you'll have to actually provide something tangible to counter to the multitude of evidence I (and others) have presented to you.

[Dezminion]

It's not only about the talent trees.
They could give us old talents, but still keep the gameplay crap.

If they revert the gameplay back to MoP/Cata style then I'd be very happy to play again.

[Borgmore]

Blah blah blah....get a life you wordy nerd....no one really cares what you think

[Firefall]

With old talent system you would go one top build and that's it. You do have actually a choice now.

This, it isnt just their marketing speech, the MoP system is just more fun because you make choices that matter, but that are usually close enough numbers-wise to let you pick how you want to play. There was absolutely no choice in old trees. That was even built into the system by being a tree and forcing you to invest points to move on. Take off the nostalgia goggles, people! Besides class design was great in Cata AND in MoP, in MoP there was extra customization. Old trees are not the solution to current class design problems and 3.2 talents didn't cause it.

[Aggrophobic]

I'm pretty far ahead in life, thanks.

Meanwhile you're doing nothing to support your claims, you're just spitting out one-liners. If you want people to take you seriously and not just call you out for shitposting then you'll have to actually provide something tangible to counter to the multitude of evidence I (and others) have presented to you.

I did, early on.

[jackofwind]

I did, early on.

You must present actual evidence contrary to what is shown to you, after it is shown to you and used to refute your claims, if you actually want to defend your position.

Instead you're just saying "No u." over and over now, which is little more than shitposting.

[LionSinMaikeru]

What customization? You either used the cookie cutter spec or you were laughed at and called a gimp. The old talent trees sucked and and I am glad they are gone. I have more choice now than I did hen even if it still isn't much.

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Please. THe old talent tress were the textbook definition of illusion of customization. Everyone picked the cookie cutter spec for optimal performance. Stop acting like there was any customization in the old trees. There absolutely wasn't.

Incorrect, you could customize to your heart's content and do whatever you wanted.

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The old talent trees now would be ludicrous. We'd have 120 points to spend, and very few builds that are considered acceptable.

You're acting like that would be a bad thing. More options are good. More choices are good. More ability to customize and make your character your own is GOOD. It really boggles my mind when people celebrate less customization and less choices.

[Tumile]

Thoughts? There was no choice and the new system is better.

New system has no choice what are u on about? literally only the bottom of the barrel thinks theres a choice, mythic raiding? check warcraft logs and copy paste, M+ check IO leader boards and copy paste.

For the most part the correct choice is painfully obvious to anyone with half a brain so u dont even need to copy, one talent is 10x better than the other, then its not a choice, just like your autism wasn't a choice.

[Tojara]

Incorrect, you could customize to your heart's content and do whatever you wanted.

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You're acting like that would be a bad thing. More options are good. More choices are good. More ability to customize and make your character your own is GOOD. It really boggles my mind when people celebrate less customization and less choices.

Equally it boggles my mind when people use the old talent system and compare it to the second coming of Jesus.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you never had a choice in the old talent system or the new one. To argue otherwise is pretty asinine and honestly pretty retarded. The new system is essentially the old system stripped of all the filler talents, and the old system was a few power points (generally 11/21/31/41, exceptions do apply) surrounded by filler points.

Choice never really existed. You could have your snowflake shit builds in the first three expansions, just like you can have your snowflake shit builds in the ones that followed. Trust me, lots of Todd's and Timmy's exist today who take really shitty "unique" builds, just like you had renegades in the first three expansions opt to take 1% less crit, so they could reduce their threat by 4% as some sort of fucking trail blazer. There have always been PvP and PvE variants in regards to builds for the entirety of this games life span, and is hasn't changed from Vanilla-BFA, only the presentation has changed.

If we want to talk about how having a point each level to click into a tree (generally filling in filler points, like 1% crit, or 2% more damage on a certain ability) upon leveling up felt good, well, that's an entirely different thread. Hope people realize that the Legion artifact was an exact replica of Vanilla-WoTLk talent system (gold and active abilities representing the power points occupying 11/21/31). This isn't me shitting on either system and I'd say Legion was better class design wise than BFA (still not better than WoD/MoP), but it wasn't because of the artifacts.

To each their own. Some people like the feeling of being forced to click into abilities to optimize their trees because it gives them some psychological high or some shit, and makes them feel like they are accomplishing something.

Now, don't get me wrong I think PoE is a better game than Diablo 3 but the vast majority of the things in the skill web you click on are inti/agi/strength increases. While there's still a massive amount of choice in that game, it's not like every node or level up in that game is super exciting (and I felt the exact same way in WoW through the first iterations). On another note D2 gave you stat points every level and while it felt cool to 'optimize', generally you would dump your points into the necessary strength (rarely dex on certain builds to hit a cap) and then fill the rest into vitality.

The picture with the hamburger is generally how I feel class design has progressed over the years and the only thing I really agree with. They seem afraid to keep building upon what they had in the past (this doesn't necessarily concern talents), and instead of progressing with classes they continue to take steps back once and awhile. I obviously recognize that they need to do this to a certain degree, otherwise balance would be a nightmare though.

[Armourboy]

You can't claim that you changed your talents in vanilla more than today. it's simply not true no matter how I see it.

Unless you are a casual player and chose to stay with passive talents all through BFA.

Of course you can't change them as much, but that has zilch to do with actual choice. Actual respecing is nothing more than a system, it has zilch to do with talent choices themselves.

[Weeps]

AOE and Single target spells should be baseline. It used to be that you clicked on a spell that activates aoe spells. That was nice and smooth. It would make m+ 1000x more fun.

[LionSinMaikeru]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you never had a choice in the old talent system or the new one.

I agree with the latter, not the former.

To argue otherwise is pretty asinine and honestly pretty retarded. The new system is essentially the old system stripped of all the filler talents, and the old system was a few power points (generally 11/21/31/41, exceptions do apply) surrounded by filler points.

"Filler" you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

What was filler to you was customization to other people who actually like RPGs.

If I was on my Mage I could put points into Frost to get +slowing duration or +100% critical strike with my frost spells. I could go into Fire and give my fire spells a DoT to do a bit of their damage over time or I could give them +chance to stun.

These were perks that helped you to make your character yours. I could do any kind of build I wanted. Fire / Frost, Pure Fire, Pure Frost, Pure Arcane, Fire / Arcane, Arcane / Frost, Fire / Frost / Arcane, etc. Whatever I wanted. This is what I praise. The freedom to customize my character and to feel like I'm in an RPG. Not a hollowed out version.

Choice never really existed. You could have your snowflake shit builds in the first three expansions, just like you can have your snowflake shit builds in the ones that followed. Trust me, lots of Todd's and Timmy's exist today who take really shitty "unique" builds, just like you had renegades in the first three expansions opt to take 1% less crit, so they could reduce their threat by 4% as some sort of fucking trail blazer. There have always been PvP and PvE variants in regards to builds for the entirety of this games life span, and is hasn't changed from Vanilla-BFA, only the presentation has changed.

/paragraph filled with elitism and lies.

You have plenty of choice back in the day. Now the choice is superficial because you don't get to actually customize your character beyond what Blizzard already gives you.

If we want to talk about how having a point each level to click into a tree (generally filling in filler points, like 1% crit, or 2% more damage on a certain ability) upon leveling up felt good, well, that's an entirely different thread.

It did feel good, yes.

[nekobaka]

The current talent system to me is more of a super glyph system. In both cases talents and other customization options was taken away and put into the new system to make the system feel meaningful while having effectively free choice in changing ones glyphs/talents based on their category.

While it can be considered a hit against the balance of the game the existence of odd talent combinations working left some of the more fun change of pace to the game. It was more like a shifting of a games meta in more RPG focused games. It is an aspect Blizzard has been trying to serialize from the game. One of the things I kind of hated from ME:A multiplayer when devs cleaned up many of the "fun" mechanics that was more of broken bugs/design that they didnt bother to resolve and accept as part of the game. Just something like reload canceling made weapons in ME3 made certain weapons have a more skill component in order to make them more viable and in many cases keep up with other weapons. It opened up many other builds that would of instead been trimmed down to a smaller number of viable weapons. How mods, consumables, and abilities interacted with each other also added layers that was more streamlined in ME:A.

[Alkizon]

Sorotia
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You can deny it as much as you like (you have this right), but that was the idea, class>talents>role idea. These're no perks (it's you current "talents"), they give growth, they require time and development. That was game philosophy, that how it worked, I have already explained this in "levels irrelevance" thread.

I'll try to use friend's analogy. There is (schools) division into classes (as a period in time, period of development, stage), but there is also interclass division and all this is accompanied by tests/exams/other stuff = learning, slow and gradual. It works so everywhere, what you somehow don't like or incomprehensible to, has no power in this discussion. So, level itself is totality of learning stages (not character level but tree). The last sane option assumed "5 talents" levels, while you were not limited in choosing where to go (of course, you were free to go and only one way, but it'd greatly limit your global and survive abilities) - where to put all 5 talents, they simply had to be invested somewhere in "same direction classes" to pass to next level in this direction. You were not given abilities: you increased your mastery in that you already knew (do you understand this cunning part?). And now you have no such choice, everything is imposed on you that implies your “spec” and its role in hierarchy of duties. In contrast to sequence, that I explained to you earlier, it's opposite now: first comes the role, then perks to fulfill this role, and then only devs remember the class (if even do, but I'm not even sure in that).

So... it was somesing like: I'll buff (passives, adding points to the same lvl) this stuff because I'm using it alot (your learning at school) and after I'll buff it enough it's became a new different more powerfull spell (you go to higher class, you are unlocking higher tree's lvl).

Btw, talent - this is what you get from mother nature, and you have work for open (developing) it in a certain direction, and then develop it more, but ability - something that you can learn somewhere (also there wasn't any "unnecessary stats" before and even spirit and intellect give something for warriors <url>)

As for amount of levels, this is another problem and it's solved a little differently (this concerns more global game design and I also already talked a little about it). Moreover, it's not necessary to increase size of tree (of course it's more interesting, but), and it's not even necessary to limit this tree design to current available "points", it's quite natural to make it for the future and with subsequent possibility of access (with each additional expansion) to its deeper spheres (in cases when player chose “hybrid” build) and into a wider development of character’s horizons (if chose more unipolar one) - player will simply receive more available “modifications” (= from own or different development talents directions = branch) over time (MoP in talents' sense was look more like borderless (="spec"less) almost full tree share class design, global lack of which was mostly only in absence of sane progress stages and in class mechanics simplification, but which were get already significant damage before (in Cataclysm)). That's all.

ps. Don't say nonsense. Opinions here are powerless, only design logic and nothing else. It looks more like your problem isn't in "not understanding", but in unwillingness to overcome this barrier (in want), in need of confrontation. I don't believe that you're stupid.

[DarthMonk79]

True the old talent tree gave you more "choices" but if you wanted to be in a raid guild/group you followed the cookie cutter raid build. Doing "your own thing" wasn't accepted. I remember plenty of dungeon runs where people were kicked just because they opted for a slow debuff compared to the 0.5% more crit. If all you did was quest or do dungeons with only friends or guild members then all these alternate builds were fine. IF you wanted to progress through raiding you followed the accepted build. Believe me I miss the old "frostfire" mage in terms of being different or questing but I sure as hell wasn't invited to any raids as one.
As for people saying you don't get anything while you level currently compared to the old talent system, that's because its baked into the levelling process already. Or have you not noticed how your secondary stats or primary stats shift as you level. Spells become unlocked, you just don't go to the trainers any more to learn them. Hell, even Mastery isn't available till higher levels (50,60,70?). I'm sorry but getting to put that 1 point into your talent tree that raised your crit from 2% to 2.5% was REALLY awesome.

[mmocfd1b0ab5a3]

So basically if they just nerf all core abilities by 25% and you have to click some talents 5 times to get that 25% back? Yeah sounds very fun and interesting to click talents to get into same position we are now.

90% of old talents are already baked to the game system. The outcome would be same but the only difference is you would have to click some talents for artificial glory.