View Poll Results: Old Talents v. New Talents

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  • Old Talent Tree

    194 43.50%
  • New Talent Tree

    78 17.49%
  • Somewhere In Between

    91 20.40%
  • New but add more abilities/passives

    83 18.61%
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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Monkeymootwo View Post
    A large part of the problem with the old talent system now is they would need 110 points to put into it and the trees would just look ridiculous. What the game really really really needs in my opinion is a level squish. 120 is just too damn much to try design around.
    If they did bring it back, it wouldn't be so bad if they changed it so that you get a point every 2 levels (after 10) instead of every level
    Oh yes, there is a method to my madness O.o
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    We generally consider 0 / 0 / 71 builds to be a failure.
    ^win

  2. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    one spec? in vanilla it was very hard to change your spec. today you can change your spec with ease. What the heck are you talking about.
    All I said is that most new talents have their uses and I find myself switching depends on the type of fight. between m+ and raiding & pvp. I dunno why you said there is no real choice in current talents.
    I changed mine almost daily, it wasnt that hard.

    There is no more choice today than at any other point. The only difference is you can do it on the fly now.
    Last edited by Armourboy; 2019-01-18 at 01:40 AM.

  3. #383
    Brewmaster Uriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaelexi View Post
    So what you are saying is it is better now, thanks...... Of course there is going to be carry over, Weapomaster makes sense but picking which weapon to use was poor design as there were raids that did not have a sword but swords were best so you were pigeonholed into something. You now mae signifficant choices instead of illusions of choice.......well I have to put 2 more points in row 3 even though all the talents here are terrible but that row 4 and 5 have what I want but only 1 point worth in row 5 .......yup that was awesome design......................As for abilities for free the old talents had abilities on row 3,5,7 in most cases, not sure what you are talking about.....like your whole post swing and a miss.
    You know what? I like you mate. I think its funny how you contradict yourself. You said weaponmaster pigeonholds yourself into something and you are correct. Most people didnt bother to respec each raid based on weapon drops. Doing that too often soon costs a pile of gold. So you needed to make a careful decision because you couldnt just respec. I guess we can agree on that right? And then you say this:

    You now mae signifficant choices instead of illusions of choice.
    So you are saying carefully deciding what spec would be worth it and being stuck with it for quite some time is a less significant choice than now where you can respec your talent points before each raidboss?

    By the way Sword Spec wasnt always the best. Depending on Spec and gear Axe mastery gave you more crit and as a Warrior crit was quite important, same as some Rogue specs. And Mace Spec just dominated in PVP. So you want to PVP after a long raidnight? Guess what you cant just respec your talents for free. But yeah, your choices now are MUCH more significant in BFA. You heard it here first Kids!



    You dont understand what I mean with getting abilities? Maybe rereading my post helps? Reading comprehension is quite rare these days isnt it? But as I am quite generous today I will explain it to you again:

    Did you notice that your bars are more empty now that before? Thats why abilities that you got at your class trainer for some silver and that your class had for years are now made talents. To give you an example: Take Paladin Auras. You got them very early at your class trainer for very little money. Now you have to spec for it. You sacrifice 1 Talentpoint for something that you got for free back in the days. If you compare that to now you would have had auras baseline and gotten like 5%crit for that talentpoint you could spend in that tree whereever you liked.

    You say that back in the days some rows werent interesting or didnt offer that much of improvement. Yes you are correct, but guess what: thats still the case. Take Retribution Pala as example. Row 45 and 90 dont offer something meaningfull. Sure you can toss some offheals around or stun in some way or another, but it doesnt really impact your character that much. Back in the days there were boring rows, but at least you got more choices or could spend your points in another Spezification tree. Claiming that Talents are better than in the past is like buying a bag of Skittles, but there are only red ones inside the box. So much choice to be had there.
    Last edited by Uriel; 2019-01-18 at 02:12 AM.

  4. #384
    After playing fallout 76, there is something satisfying about putting points into something every level. Something wow leveling severally lacks. A return to something similar to old talent trees would require a level squish, something I think wow needs.

    I think over all wow needs to remove many qol changes and streamline changes.

  5. #385
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    What is the difference? It's all the same...most of your points were spent in boosting these skills or those skills. This just cuts out the raw stat boost talents and gives you the same few big talents.
    But this exactly is purpose of talents, since classes design implies a completely different kind rather than stupidity that they made of it.

    Ie, hierarchy of choice and gameplay in general was approximately the following (in opposed to current one):
    1)
    main role was given to classes design and their mechanics as a whole;
    2) talents were mainly responsible for tuning choice of preferences in mechanics and directions of development of this class;
    3) characteristics to a greater extent strengthened role component for character as member of the group (with proper ingenuity it could be almost any class and any field of activity, characteristics system allowed to do this, here we could also remember about professions' role).
    There was no any space for f* "specs" in this hierarchy, build was your "spec". Considering all this, whole idea of “PvP perks” isn't only stupid as itself, but also design of most of them is absolutely irrelevant and redundant... and fact that there are people with a lack of analytical thinking who consider them "original", well it's so with any system - impossible to make everyone think more globally. And no any balance has more power in these particular conditions, for it comes down only to simple mathematical manipulations for this system, since this requirements has higher priority.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    - He assumes that everyone chooses a piece of clothing depending on general characteristics he/she prefers for the own role (it could be even rogue tank/support, everything possible, gear is your role not you class, remember DKs from WotLK, that's why guardian/feral fills no problem in been at the same talent branch, but they changed/broke it). They aren't tied to character general progression (= class; unlike silly AA), they are tied to progress in expansion (= gear). And there is no such stupid stuff like many random items on 1 id = scaling to ilvl/lvl/spec (scaling/RNG=automatic=not your choice≈no choice for current system); characteristics are fixed on this particular item (you can disturb them a little with reforging and that's all, than put more effort with professions and here you go - you have all control over your castimization):
    You have control over choose which item you need, know where and how get it and how you will custom it.
    - Hail the player, f*ck devs' dictatorship
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Yes, not everyone did it well, but they made attempts to understand, mash the brain at least. We aren't even talking about this, but about whole system (classes(mechanics)+talents+stats/characteristics+tuning=RPG), it was much less complicated before, easier to analyze and understand than now. Naturally, yes, you don't need to understand it to play now, but if you suddenly will want, it'll probably take more time... and for what? Most of dependencies and information are not even tied to your character, but lying around somewhere in the mud (PvP talents, Azerite armor, etc.) tightly adhered to it and not accessible to you. Therefore, as one of the most lazy, but curious people, I would gladly change carrent system to old one at any time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Exactly then it was possible since such system let hybrid classes exist, and what became of them now? What become with all various characteristics that not so much reinforced "absolute" indicators of characters strength, but more players' "role" choice, even if taking into account "holy trinity" (also, this isn't ultimate truth because I repeat - don't forget support, which is 4th)? That is, any class was able to at least partially fulfill not only role assigned to it by devs, and therefore even "holy trinity" based encounters design didn't severely limit group as a whole (unbalanced from current point of view) abilities.

    Even DK, which appeared in WotLK (MoP monks weren't already), still confessed this "religion", because tanking/dd role completely depended on character RPG customization... but now... everything depends on chosen "spec" and no one care what player thinks about it (the whole "role" RPG part is integrated inside it and you can't change anything), we have only one opportunity to play - the way it was decided by Blizzard and nothing else (by the way, "gladiators" part was the only bright ray in dark realm of specs after "design cataclysm" that destroyed everything, but it was just an exception, and what became of them only proves my point).
    Smart players brought characters to necessary condition for their preferences in gameplay using all these three mechanisms. The only problem is that devs themselves became so stupid and entangled in this system over time, that players began overplay them in terms of ingenuity, which led to noticeable loss of control by devs and as a result of which they began "build walls" and "restrict players' capabilities" everywhere wherever possible, which of course reduced number of "unintended" branches (this is moment when balance ceased to somehow depend on players and completely passed into devs hands), but didn't add any wisdom to executors, and most players deprived of interest and sense in trying to understand any of it themselves (this isn't much necessary for comfortable game now, there're practically no ceilings (content checkpoints to check your abilities and capabilities, and here you should feel connection of all previous with global game design), and in case of special difficulties, due to illogicality/inconsistencies of the whole system, you could (≈compelled) always see "somewhere" what and why you using "wrong").
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    (under "soft cap" I mean: average stair to which specific player can climb without changing own game style intensity/complexity - current amount of content that can consume and depth of progress that own abilities' level allows to reach; as part of this, stuff that happens now is even more pitiable, since all content is consumed easily through easiest difficulty, and progress, which's indicator are equipment(ilvl)+AP, isn't attainable in principle by virtue of mechanics (process is accessible to all regardless of ability and experience, since doesn't require any such stuff to participate (=borderless in terms of content), but is unachievable for anyone); don't forget that current average player is like a dog in "food absorption" framework - doesn't know own measure, because game doesn't allow/teach to determine it)
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    For each person own (amount of) content, for each content its own development/opportunities' ceiling (and hence own participation "floor"/plank). Game isn't everybody necessity/donation, but passion worthy of own requirements, and content is its universal and most important measure. This is what it pays us for our efforts and abilities, and not for our money. As soon as another principles starts to lay into production foundation, game begin to lose interest and popularity (often, but not always also grow at "total" price), and developers - recognition and respect.
    (ideally we're buying not content, but just opportunity for its receipt; someone can get everything, and someone nothing, and in main degree it depends on ourselves, and not on money or RNG gods, everything is fair and transparent)
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    2. Characteristics (&shame to PvP talent system + time-gate/catch-up/Azerite-remark) +(+/+/+)+/+/+(+/+)+
    3.
    Classes philosophies+ (&thier coherence with whole design+resource/supports/balance) +(+/+/+/+/+/+)+(+)+/+(+)+
    4.
    Some words about talents (&their connection with classes, items=talents) +(+)+(+/+/+/+)
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-08-22 at 06:48 AM.
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  6. #386
    The old talent trees now would be ludicrous. We'd have 120 points to spend, and very few builds that are considered acceptable.

    Legion expanded on the concept really well. BFA flopped with it in my opinion because there wasn't a sense of the progression lasting. You just get new armor and re-grind the same traits you had before, almost always. Then the monsters scale up with your traits, so you don't get even a pinch stronger effectively. In Legion, the traits were exempt from this and mobs only scaled to your stats, not artifact traits.

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Donimic View Post
    Did you even play when talent trees were set up like this? Just because there were a lot of buttons doesn't mean anyone with half a brain didn't use the cookie cutter build
    I think when these were a thing i wasn't raiding hard-core so i just played how i wanted.. guess its more nostalgia than anything else

  8. #388
    Titan Aggrophobic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Same could be said about thinking there was no choice in the old system. Both had cookie cutter builds that you used 99% of the time, and situational builds you used the other 1%, but were never necessary.
    1%? Nah, thats still not it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    Pretty much what I expected - you actually have no clue what you're talking about, can't back up your claims, and likely don't even have any relevant experience to the topic. Either that or you're just shitposting and hoping for a forum vacation.

    Either way, stay small.
    But I do and I did. I just don't see the point in repeating myself. Keep up the personal insults though. That'll get you far in life.

  9. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    The old talent trees now would be ludicrous. We'd have 120 points to spend, and very few builds that are considered acceptable.

    Legion expanded on the concept really well. BFA flopped with it in my opinion because there wasn't a sense of the progression lasting. You just get new armor and re-grind the same traits you had before, almost always. Then the monsters scale up with your traits, so you don't get even a pinch stronger effectively. In Legion, the traits were exempt from this and mobs only scaled to your stats, not artifact traits.
    I remember the nightmare of the old talent system, nightmare in that of having to either remember what you chose when resetting them.. And or taking a screen shot before hand then the chore of clicking so much of this ability, only to swear when you put too much into one ability and having to reset it all over again and start from scratch..

    My thinking of why we never saw any new permanent spells and abilities in Legion and more so in BfA, is that they probably ran out of either good ideas or probably didn't want the hassle of having to balance all the new spells and abilities..

    It sucks we never did get any new ones, but it is the way it goes sometimes..

  10. #390
    you kinda made the whole topic invalid for me when you I read "Warriors gain Charge Stun back"..

    currents talent tree provide more freedom, ability to prepare for a boss fight (as in change talents) and make it easier to actually achieve some kind of balance for blizzard

    Wildstar Black Ops - loved by strangers

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    As you wish: You're wrong.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Then you're not doing it right.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No, you got the two mixed up.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Actually, the balance now is far, far better than in Vanilla, TBC and Wrath. It's actually silly how good the balance is with as many classes and options within each class and spec. It'll never be perfect of course but still.
    Of course the balance is better now, they have had 14 years to improve it. It's not like if they'd revert back to the old system, they would ditch the current core talents.
    So balance isn't an issue at all.

    But what ever, it's a moot point anyways.
    Quote Originally Posted by atenime45 View Post
    The 10% reward. It's was unspoken rule that you DONT attack other faction so everyone could enjoy the 10% reward. But now no one cares about that anymore

  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by pppbroom View Post
    Can you actually answer my question, what choice did I have as a resto druid? Comparing to today's for example monk's playstyle as I mentioned.
    Why are you insisting on comparing a class designed recently - fairly balanced by practically a new team against a completely different class from the past?

  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by Rotted View Post
    Why are you insisting on comparing a class designed recently - fairly balanced by practically a new team against a completely different class from the past?
    even if you compare it to live druid it's the same. you play a lot differently now than you did back then.

  14. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    snip
    Except it isn't like that...if anything BfA is the assembled burger and the Pre-MoP is the pick and choose.

    You had to spend so many points just so you can get 20% to this ability....+15% to two other abilities...you have blow so many points just to assemble a decent burger.

    Please stop with this hybrid BS...there were so few good hybrid builds...most build had you go to the bottom of your primary spec tree and then fill out the rest of the points in other trees for little bonuses.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    The old talent trees now would be ludicrous. We'd have 120 points to spend, and very few builds that are considered acceptable.

    Legion expanded on the concept really well. BFA flopped with it in my opinion because there wasn't a sense of the progression lasting. You just get new armor and re-grind the same traits you had before, almost always. Then the monsters scale up with your traits, so you don't get even a pinch stronger effectively. In Legion, the traits were exempt from this and mobs only scaled to your stats, not artifact traits.
    But...but it wouldn't be ludicrous....it would be cool! Because!

    Because it would be fun to blow 90+ points speccing boosts to your primary abilities! It would be epic to spend 5 points to get 20% damage to Mortal Strike and 5 more to get 15% more damage to Slam! Oh can't forget how mindblowingly sweet it is to spend 5 points for a 10% bonus to execute!

    NOOOOOO! Having those bonuses already rolled into your abilities is LAME!
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  15. #395
    Old talent tree was better for leveling since you got to click a button every time you dinged. Prefer the new system for everything else.

  16. #396
    Legendary! jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    1%? Nah, thats still not it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    But I do and I did. I just don't see the point in repeating myself. Keep up the personal insults though. That'll get you far in life.
    I'm pretty far ahead in life, thanks.

    Meanwhile you're doing nothing to support your claims, you're just spitting out one-liners. If you want people to take you seriously and not just call you out for shitposting then you'll have to actually provide something tangible to counter to the multitude of evidence I (and others) have presented to you.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  17. #397
    It's not only about the talent trees.
    They could give us old talents, but still keep the gameplay crap.

    If they revert the gameplay back to MoP/Cata style then I'd be very happy to play again.

  18. #398
    Blah blah blah....get a life you wordy nerd....no one really cares what you think

  19. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by pppbroom View Post
    With old talent system you would go one top build and that's it. You do have actually a choice now.
    This, it isnt just their marketing speech, the MoP system is just more fun because you make choices that matter, but that are usually close enough numbers-wise to let you pick how you want to play. There was absolutely no choice in old trees. That was even built into the system by being a tree and forcing you to invest points to move on. Take off the nostalgia goggles, people! Besides class design was great in Cata AND in MoP, in MoP there was extra customization. Old trees are not the solution to current class design problems and 3.2 talents didn't cause it.

  20. #400
    Titan Aggrophobic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    I'm pretty far ahead in life, thanks.

    Meanwhile you're doing nothing to support your claims, you're just spitting out one-liners. If you want people to take you seriously and not just call you out for shitposting then you'll have to actually provide something tangible to counter to the multitude of evidence I (and others) have presented to you.
    I did, early on.

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