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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by roboscorcher View Post
    Ok, so you think that WoW's *overall* population decline is due to streamlining? LOL

    Look at the MMO market in North America. It barely even exists anymore. Less and less people want to invest so much of their spare time into games that revolve mostly around grinding. THAT's why WoW's population is declining. People in general don't play MMO's anymore. The market saturated in Wrath, and has tapered off since.

    What I was referring to earlier was that the recent 'good' expansions also had streamlining. Even if they pop numbers from these expansions are down from Wrath, they were successful in increasing subs from the last one.

    But yeah, unless MMO's magically become popular in the West again, not even Classic will maintain Wrath's population.
    To add to that do you know how fucking hard it is to get people to invest that much in a game that's 14 years old? Bringing in new players to this old ass game, especially at a rate quicker than people are leaving, is just an impossible feat at this point. Doesn't matter how good your content is.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    WOTLK was stupidly hardcore compared to current game. get out.
    Lol. No. 10 man easier raids. Incredibly easy heroic dungeons. Naxxramas incredibly easy. Welfare badge loot. Lots of pugging of content, such as Gold DKP runs.
    Just eight countries in the region are responsible for about 63 percent of total plastic waste flowing into the oceans. Little of that junk has been exported by rich economies. Instead, it's almost solely generated by Asia's newly minted consumer classes, the vast majority of whom lack awareness to garbage collection, modern landfills and incineration. Any progress in reducing ocean plastic will have to start with them. Bloomberg. 2018.



  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Kpmk View Post
    To add to that do you know how fucking hard it is to get people to invest that much in a game that's 14 years old? Bringing in new players to this old ass game, especially at a rate quicker than people are leaving, is just an impossible feat at this point. Doesn't matter how good your content is.
    Correct, eventually the game will die its true death. All things die, it's the nature of the universe. Just because WoW will continue to lose subs and eventually die does not mean that changes to the game can't slow down or quicken its death. Look at Star Wars Galaxies for exmaple. It was a niche game. MMOs before WoW were a niche market. Those in the market, loved the game for all of the roleplaying elements it had. It felt like you were in the Star Wars universe. Part of this was that you could spend a lot of time and effort in the game to become a Jedi. Being a Jedi was naturally OP but felt like a natural part of the game world. More casual players did not like this, they wanted to be a Jedi too. After releasing their 2005 expansion they quickly deployed what is now the infamous NGE (New Game Enhancements) patch, in the hopes that dumbing down the depth and casualizing the game would help them achieve the same success WoW currently was. This killed the game pretty much over night. It was like going from Vanilla WoW systems and design one day, to the next day going to current BfA design.

    Now take Blizzard. They too want to casualize the game, in the hopes that it will increase subs, increase revenue, and pull the casual players that are intimidated by the genres conventions. However, they know that a sudden paradigm shift like that will instantly kill the game. So, they make it a little more casual every expansion. They take things away and convince you that they were bad for the game. They reintroduce them in a highly contained and structured way so that they can easily meter your progress and pace it to the way they want. This began in WotLK when Blizzard realized that eventually the game would die, but it was far too lucrative to let it run its natural course. So design goals changed. Systems changed. All in an attempt to cultivate and then keep the more casual audience over a long period of time. This has partially worked. WoW, despite being a dying game, is still the most active and popular MMO on the market (though XIV and TESO are catching up). But, the wheels are finally starting to fall off the wagon because players are (conciously or subconciously) starting to notice that they're playing the SWG NGE patch, but the patch features have just been added slowly over time instead of all at once.

    I won't say that if Blizzard continues down this path next expansion that the game is going to die completely, that's simply not going to happen. Its been around so long that a lot of us will sub right up until the final expansion just to see how all of this ends. In fact, despite the terrible design, I imagine a lot of subs would flood back in if they said BfA would be the last expac and 8.3.5 the final patch. Afterall, where can we go from here? The game is not going to grow, only continue to shrink. Continuing down the current path is going to cause it shrink faster. Fixing what's wrong would require a complete paradigm shift in the company, so that's not happening.

    I think a lot of the angst from current/un-subbed players comes from knowing that this game and world they love is nearing its final years, and they really just wish the game would return to a better form before it dies for real.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kudos View Post
    Lol. No. 10 man easier raids. Incredibly easy heroic dungeons. Naxxramas incredibly easy. Welfare badge loot. Lots of pugging of content, such as Gold DKP runs.
    10 man easier raids? LFR is easier.

    Easy Heroics? Todays Heroics are just as easy, if not easier.

    Naxx incredibly easy? LFR is easier.

    Welfare badge loot? Required actively doing content. Vendor had limited item slots you could buy for. Today you can get Welfare loot from Warfronts, WQs, and World
    Bosses. All of which are brain dead (world bosses used to require a coordinated group to kill) and can be AFKed through.

    Lots of puggable content? Maybe I'm mistaken but I don't think there were many pug groups that killed Yogg or LK in Wrath while they were current. I'm sure it happened, but it wasn't common. And again, all content in the game is currently puggable thanks to LFD and LFR.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Greyscale View Post
    There was no stagnation in sub numbers during Wrath though.
    Compared to tbc? there sure as hell were
    We humans have to stick together

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Theangryone View Post
    I would level running a bunch of bgs and use the honor to buy the pvp gear available at the time. I would then time it to hit 80 in AV throw on all the gear and go on a killing spree. It was nice not having a level restriction for purchasing gear.
    But it was stupidly hardcore compared to today. Not casual friendly at all.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    And they are wondering why the numbers keep dropping.
    How can you tell?

  7. #207
    The Unstoppable Force Puupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ID811717 View Post
    How can you tell?
    Anecdotal, yet no one from my guild is playing. No one.

    It's a guild that has been formed in vanilla and has cleared all content more or less in time until now. About 300 accounts in the guild.

    We had around 70-80 active players during BfA launch.
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    i've said i'd like to have one of those bad dragon dildos shaped like a horse, because the shape is nicer than human.
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    i was talking about horse cock again, told him to look at your sig.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by MalfLFT View Post
    Compared to tbc? there sure as hell were
    The all time high 12M subs was announced at end of Wrath, just two months ahead of Cata release.
    You need to check your facts, this is easily verifiable information

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    This ENTIRE thing falls apart when you realize the most casual friendly expansion Wrath that people glorify these days was HYPER casual friendly and had over 11 million subs.
    wow peaked at 10 million subs at cata launch, wotlk was more casual friendly than vanilla or bc but less than any other expansion. it required a large time investment and the lack of LFR forced people to be good enough to get into a pug or a guild that raided. wotlk was the perfect balance of everything and that's why it was the best expansion.

    you don't know what the fuck you're talking about

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Yeah right, heroic dungeons (which gave badges) were sooooo hard after the first week.
    Actually, they were in the beginning/first few weeks. It was only when LFG happened (along with the pug buff) did they become super easier.
    Isn't it immature that you call him Donald "Dump"?
    I agree, it's childish and stupid - and that's my point. it's meant as a deliberate mockery of his blatant disrespect via using "Crooked Hillary", and thus I can call him "Dump" since he dumps his campaign promises, dumps campaign managers, dumps his wives, wants to dump the first amendment, dumps common-sense war ethics and dumps the use of proper English in favor of a mongrel white-trash dialect.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by temple1906 View Post
    This is such a non-argument. MMOs are not for everyone. RPGs are not for everyone. MMORPGs are not for everyone. The fact that the game was popualr enough that 100 million people tried it in the first decade is a testament to how well made it was. The fact that it retained 11% of those players is incredible, when you consider how niche the MMORPG genre is. MMOs were not mainstream popular until WoW hit the scene.
    Or maybe it's a testament of how horrible the game was at the time, because it only managed a retention rate of 10-ish percent. Most mobile games (that we tend to sneer at in this forum) have retention rates around 25%. WoW went through incredible churn in its first ten years without being able to hang on to it. Today a game publishing house execs would probably get fired if they mismanaged customer churn like that.

    That tells to me that it really didn't matter which development choices the team made, because the game just happened to catch a zeitgeist and the MMO market was not really 100M subs deep. This was evidenced by all the other tripple-A, big money MMOs that would take a piece of that promised market. Except they all failed. Not because WoW was so good, but because the market they thought would be there - wasn't.

    The zeitgeist faded and WoW, despite changes to the design team, despite many, many different design choices is slowly but surely declining towards the real MMO genre market cap. Which is probably around 500k - 1M subs.

    Classic will be a nice benchmark for this "there are millions of private server players hungry to get back to WoW"-claims. I don't think there is, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

    I also don't think there's any way for WoW to ever regain "its former glory". It was an anomaly. It's gone now.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Greyscale View Post
    The all time high 12M subs was announced at end of Wrath, just two months ahead of Cata release.
    You need to check your facts, this is easily verifiable information
    The fact that the sub numbers stagnate doesnt mean it wasnt rising. Just at a much much slower rate than previously. You need to understand the meaning of words before you engage in arguments.
    We humans have to stick together

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by MalfLFT View Post
    The fact that the sub numbers stagnate doesnt mean it wasnt rising. Just at a much much slower rate than previously. You need to understand the meaning of words before you engage in arguments.
    Ok dude whatever. I didn't know we were now measuring the speed of sub changes as well, but I guess that fits your inner narrative.
    Subs kept increasing during Wrath. The first time they dipped was in Cata. Holy shit man.

  14. #214
    Lol. No. 10 man easier raids. Incredibly easy heroic dungeons. Naxxramas incredibly easy. Welfare badge loot. Lots of pugging of content, such as Gold DKP runs.
    Current normal is comparable if not easier than non-naxx WotLK raids. ICC itself even with the 30% buff kept many from even seeing LK. Heroic dungeons are also easy now. Welfare badge loot has been replaced with titanforge by rewarding players with even higher ilvl than WotLK normal 10 man ilvl. The badge grind was fairly long for non-raiders until Cata gutted it. The introduction of the flex and later normal difficulty paired with cross realm raiding two to three fold the amount of players clearing organized raids. Oh and lets not forget LFR.

    Now general length of long term grind for all types of players has been increased, but the methods to keep these players rewarded has also been increased.

  15. #215
    Stood in the Fire Chromell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    In Classic and TBC the game grew in popularity. In Wrath it stopped growing. It was also not the "most casual friendly expansion" at all. Do I need to mention it did not have LFR?
    I guess it may seem like it because it was during WotLK that things began to cater more to casuals. Heroics weren't nearly as challenging as in BC. Farewell epics. Introduction of LFD system. IMO these are the features that began paving the way for what we have now.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    This ENTIRE thing falls apart when you realize the most casual friendly expansion Wrath that people glorify these days was HYPER casual friendly and had over 11 million subs.
    ... do you have a shit memory or are you just trolling?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    In Classic and TBC the game grew in popularity. In Wrath it stopped growing. It was also not the "most casual friendly expansion" at all. Do I need to mention it did not have LFR?
    Um no. It skyrocketed in Wrath, and peaked in early Cata, which is where the growth died.

  17. #217
    Legendary! Zka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    WOTLK was stupidly hardcore compared to current game. get out.
    You must have some memory issues. Facerolling super easy heroics gave you access to almost the best gear, first raid tier was a fucking joke and subsequent tiers were only somewhat hard on heroic 25 mode. LK was the faceroll expansion.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    All true statements, except the last one, I'd wager a very small minority of pvprs ever achieved 1800 in wotlk.

    Now that that's out of the way, here's the only thing you need to know, ALL the problems you mentioned in wotlk, are amplified and worse than ever in the current game. Listing them as they existed in WOTLK or even TBC, doesn't change the fact that's it's worse now, so much worse.
    1800 was definitely not easy to achieve in WotLK. It's like the current equivalent of 2400. I remember queue times being really long too once you got up to like 2k rating.. like multiple minutes.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Zka View Post
    You must have some memory issues. Facerolling super easy heroics gave you access to almost the best gear, first raid tier was a fucking joke and subsequent tiers were only somewhat hard on heroic 25 mode. LK was the faceroll expansion.
    I wasnt high geared in WOTLK by afking so i guess no.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    This ENTIRE thing falls apart when you realize the most casual friendly expansion Wrath that people glorify these days was HYPER casual friendly and had over 11 million subs.
    I think you've confused the terms "most casual friendly" there....

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