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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Zka View Post
    Warfronts -> you'll get kicked in 1 min here in EU, I've tried it.
    Only 1 world boss drops top level gear, like once in 2 weeks and it's a random drop - not guaranteed. Also it's like 3 different items, where do you get items for the 13 other slots?
    WQ facerolling is not AFKing.

    So in the best case you can get a FEW 380+ items in a few months with your brilliant AFK gearing strategy. Everyone decked in 380+ including me got all or almost all of their pieces from high level group pve, so gtfo with your lies.
    But i still got it. Time isnt relevant here. You get it or not thats important. Nobady cares if you get it in 1 or 6 months. You should not earn this type of gear ever. There is so many mythic guilds strugling to find players to do mythic. And when you ask people what quit mythic raiding they all have same answer. ,,Why bother?,,. You can do casual content and eventualy you will get same outcome. Yes it will take more time i guess. But far far less play time. Most of it is just waiting not actiualy playing. So for less effort and time spend in game i have same outcome.

    My mage is 376 imtelvl with 7 days, 13 hours, 49 minutes of play time. Lot of that time was spend farming mogs. What is your playtime as mythic raider?

    And i dont get why you againts this. I literaly want me as casual player for you to have exlusive gear what i should never own. Isnt it kinda stupid to fight againts this whe you are mythic raider?

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    I love how all these posts come from people who obviously didn't play the game at the time.

    WoW got successful because it was the most casual MMO on the market.

    The now high of WoW was 'the worst expansion ever' at the time and gave birth to the 'Wrath Baby', for people that started playing in WotLK because the game turned even more casual.
    This is so true! There was harder stuff in WotLK as well. Most people just didn’t care about Alone in the Darkness, Firefighter etc.

    However, there was one thing where WotLK was objectively harder and more complex than Vanilla and TBC: Class design and abilities. WotLK basically gave birth to the idea of dps rotations. And allow me to remind you: A lot - like a LOT - of players fucking HATED that! Which is funny now.

    So there you have it: Most of WotLK content was fairly casual, but the class design became more elaborate and you actually had to engage your brain to some extend to maximise your output.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    Then they decided to move it out of SC2 to their own game. Here, they started "innovating".
    "people really loved it". Ok, how many people?

    Do you really believe HotS would have been more successful as a pure Dota/LoL clone? Even if that was possible, would that even be a good thing?
    Pretty much the one really great thing that I see most HotS players praising it for IS what it innovated in (talents instead of gear, shared levels, objectives, shorter games with more teamfights, etc).

    Sure, there's plenty of people who like that complexity of gear, xp/gold farming and all that jazz that HotS doesn't have to the same extent, but how many of those would actually leave the game they were already establish in?

    It's the same shit with WoW - it became a marker in MMORPG, with everyone else trying to clone it. The thing when you try to directly compete with such a big game, is that even you do everything like it, what reason do the players have to leave the game that they already invested hundreds of hours in for yours, if it doesn't offer anything new?

    HotS is far more likely to have declined because of its monetization (especially the move to lootboxes without direct purchases) and overly forced push on esports than it ever did because of it's design or gameplay.



    Anyway, personally I would defenitely prefer if WoW had taken a different route, but I think it's fairly shortsighted to assume that "targeting this casual MMORPG community that barely exists" is what causes the numbers to keep dropping.

    What I mean is, how exactly that the numbers wouldn't keep dropping regardless? How are you sure that this measure (of targeting a more casual audience) didn't actually increase WoW's lifespan, and if they hadn't done it WoW would be long in maintenance by now?

    I'm not saying they're always right, far from it, but I would think if not changing the game was more profitable (ie it held more subscriptions for longer), Blizzard would likely have data to assume that and do it (if anything, for business alone). It's fair to assume otherwise, but don't state it as fact.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    The people that enjoyed Classic and TBC WoW are today told "you are not the target audience anymore, sorry" and instead they target this casual MMORPG community that BARELY EXISTS. See the resemblence?
    Imagine thinking current wow is more accessable to casuals than vanilla

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Violetti View Post
    Imagine thinking current wow is more accessable to casuals than vanilla
    I have never even seen anyone trying to say something like this. Can you please elaborate?

    I guess you are just trolling.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    it was still going up, it slowed, but it went up
    *sigh*
    I'm going to make a copy-paste of this considering how often it needs to be repeated...

    WotLK increased only twice :
    1) When it was released, which means that the actual design of the expansion was still unknown, but wasn't supposed to be a great break compared to TBC - so it simply carried from the good reputation of TBC.
    2) When Cataclysm was announced, and this announce was made with claims of going back to the roots (blue gear, harder 5-man, etc.).

    So basically, two rises, each one being mainly due to the expansion around it. WotLK itself didn't grew anything.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Point /c/ is a big problem, and I especially encountered this in discussions with friends. It doesn't matter whether their main reason was “inadequate replacement of character models” (this is closer to me due to certain circumstances) or game's philosophy and design as a whole, but they don't want to take part in this, referring primarily to the fact that they don't believe/trust company anymore, they don’t want to waste time on people who “betrayed” their friendship and affection, people who first trampled/destroyed their interests without looking at any protests, and then suddenly started backing off: doesn’t it smell like another cheating/betrayal? But point /b/ also can't be thrown out, it does matter, yes.

    As for “followed”, this is, as mentioned, the problems of attractiveness/adaptation, which are more likely to have a social/psychological genesis, this is crucial moment when they decided that they have the right to want more. It is impossible to overestimate devastating effects of WotLK and transitional stage in form of Cataclysm in this sense; here I also agree (but don't forget that Classic and BC also had symptoms of too protracted "content" cycle in form of content/balance changes released near Naxx and Sunwell;
    ---
    don't read that they were bad, they were surplus for current content, and therefore required significant changes to progressive "finished" part of released content (such game mechanics as threat, stat growth and balance of progress), they could for example be separated by a pair of levels both in complexity (performance/characteristics requirements) and progress from current content instead of rebalance and catch-up mechanic (they mostly were rushed), but unsuccessful levels distribution as such is a separate topic
    ---

    but if it was closer to the end of the cycle in previous times, then WotLK have began it even before its middle: inflation and rush, this is something that should have sobered up developers with sufficient critical thinking, but vice versa scared them and they began to cut content on the move).

    Therefore, statement that “WotLK influenced failure of Cataclysm” have place for existence (only that problem here isn't in sequence, but in methods' inheritance), since they began “familiarize” with subsequently realized unsuccessful design solutions in it. WotLK was an inappropriate experiment, results of which were misinterpreted, and Cataclysm became consequences, Pandaria was result of cleansing Cataclysm, WoD was PR bomb and great overestimation of current own capabilities without correcting wrong design trends (in theory, it should have been excuse for 3 previous expansions, maybe they even understood that they were wrong, but it was already late and they only made even more critical errors, my personal experience ends here in connection with new models advent, everything further is more likely theoretical sampling speculation), Legion - is already corporate experiment to obtain long-term profits (this time experiment was a success, but its goal was no longer respectable, fully money based, because they urgently needed something to "pay" for WoD compensation), BfA is "based on reduced budget" dry rot of ideas left after Legion.

    ps. Why do people like to remember WotLK? I don't think that because it was complex and correct in everything, no. Most likely because this is the last time when game “mechanically” and visually (experience/impression) still somehow resembled its original one.
    Yeah, kinda agree on everything here.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    WOTLK was stupidly hardcore compared to current game. get out.
    No it wasnt. Wrath set up the ease of access model taht would be used from then on. The raids are MUCH harder than they were in wrath, and the meta in arena is far ahead as players will always find new comps.

  8. #248
    you can call me anything you want but a factor ON TOP on what is wrong anyway, is that wow is on the level it is right now is the fact that they f**** the bot developers and killed almost all bots which existed
    to farm gold, play pvp to farm armor and stuff...

    yeah go on call me crazy or stupid but I PERSONALLY think, that is a huge factor aswell.
    you can and you could notice as soon as they had downed honorboddy a lot of the playerbase left or never came back because they got banned.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Problem is you compared WOTLK 25 hc raid to Mythic raiding to determinate what expansion is more casual. Casual expansion is determined by what expansion is more acessible no what expansion is harder. WOTLK didnt had LFR so was far less accessible than current expansion. So BFA is more casual expansion than WOTLK becouse it is more accessible game. And it isnt now just for content. They made high end gear accessible to masses so again more accessability = more casual game. So stop using this difficulty argument becouse that thing have nothing to do game being casual or not.
    Thank you for the honest and concise response.

    So as the WoW playerbase has stalled out and dried up over the years, the OP argues we have shifted towards less casual players. Wanting a more meaningful(?) experience as opposed to one that is somehow cheapened by accessibility.

    I might suggest Legion proves that a highly modern and accessible WoW model still makes sense and works. OTOH, BFA Islands and Warfronts are a disaster because they are so utterly cheap and meaningless. I enjoy Mythic dungeons and Raiding, so my own experience may support the OP in this regard.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Justpassing View Post
    Yeah and when it WoTLK was current, it was stupidly easy compared to the TBC and Vanilla. If you don't recall the badge shitstorm - it was faar worse than the current shitstorms - then you simply haven't played it and you should get out.



    Mate the badge system was received faaar worse than LFR. LFR grew shitty over time - when LFR was introduced in DS tier it was an extremely lucrative way to get gear.
    The badge system was worse than current shit storms? Are you actually kidding me? Get out of here, you clearly weren't around for anything past WotLK.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by schisch View Post
    you can call me anything you want but a factor ON TOP on what is wrong anyway, is that wow is on the level it is right now is the fact that they f**** the bot developers and killed almost all bots which existed
    to farm gold, play pvp to farm armor and stuff...

    yeah go on call me crazy or stupid but I PERSONALLY think, that is a huge factor aswell.
    you can and you could notice as soon as they had downed honorboddy a lot of the playerbase left or never came back because they got banned.
    Half of my BGs are still bots, so no, I don't see your logic. Bots don't populate a game with meaningful interactions and groups man. I am not as down on bots as other people are though.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelathos View Post
    Thank you for the honest and concise response.

    So as the WoW playerbase has stalled out and dried up over the years, the OP argues we have shifted towards less casual players. Wanting a more meaningful(?) experience as opposed to one that is somehow cheapened by accessibility.

    I might suggest Legion proves that a highly modern and accessible WoW model still makes sense and works. OTOH, BFA Islands and Warfronts are a disaster because they are so utterly cheap and meaningless. I enjoy Mythic dungeons and Raiding, so my own experience may support the OP in this regard.
    Legion wasnt great expansion. It was ok expansion. We came out of WOD so it wasnt hard to make people excited. Legion had problem to retain players.

    Legion also showed there is huge demand fpr exclusive and challenging content. Yes Mage tower. It was most exclusive content in Legion and also most well recieved feature. People alway say game has to be casual and accessible to survive yet both those things do exact opposite. It drove most casuals away from game. You need exclusive content otherwise whats the point.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    WOTLK was stupidly hardcore compared to current game. get out.
    You mean the game which had ALL OF ITS RAID CONTENT BEATEN IN UNDER A WEEK OF RELEASE ON HARDEST DIFFICULTY. or that paragon members at the end wod said only yogg+0 was only really hard in wotlk and they put bosses from wod, cata and mop higher than most wotlk bosses and now that method is still striving forward. as mechanically nearly all of wotlk bosses were joke only algalon, yogg+0 and lk hc25 was hard but paragon got the world first kill on lk25hc while they tank dc'ed for sometime in fight and then you compare it bosses like pre nerfed mythic KJ. Also good way to solve how ha hard the boss is is to count how many pulls it took for the world first team to clear for paragon lk25 hc took 170 kills and lets compare one that isn't even a final boss fallen avatar mythic with over 400 pulls.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    Like cmon Naxx 10 overall was about as hard as the heroic dungeons (which were already very easy). I remember that very well.
    Using Naxx as a reference point for wrath overall, lul.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Violetti View Post
    Imagine thinking current wow is more accessable to casuals than vanilla
    Imagine thinking the casual MMORPG community barely exists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never....BURN IT"

  15. #255
    WoW needs a complete revamp on a modern graphics engine.

  16. #256
    I am Murloc!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvaliz View Post
    Actually, they were in the beginning/first few weeks. It was only when LFG happened (along with the pug buff) did they become super easier.
    That's why I wrote "after the first week". And no, heroics in WOTLK were pretty easy even before LFG.
    OTOH, when LFG was introduced with the Halls of Reflection/forge/whatever, it was no jokes in LFG.

  17. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pillerina View Post
    Using Naxx as a reference point for wrath overall, lul.
    Cause the first raid tier of an expansion isn't important? How about the third raid tier?

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    WOTLK was stupidly hardcore compared to current game. get out.
    It really was not. The hardest thing about Wotlk raids was to not fall asleep as you rolled your freaking mousewheel that had your whole rotation macroed on it.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Villager720 View Post
    Cause the first raid tier of an expansion isn't important? How about the third raid tier?
    It would be like saying Emerald nightmare is indicative of the general difficulty of legion. I'm not saying it's not important, I'm just saying the reasoning is fallacious.

  20. #260
    ... LK 25 HC was downed only with the 5% buff... he was far from being "number check" since he had 1 shot kill mechanics.

    NAXX was a revamped raid from classic - barely no differences, that is why it was so easy. And the main point in NAXX were the imortal achievement.

    Also, gearing up and tuning your class had far more depth that BfA had. You had different set of attributes (hit and defense were a thing back there), different talent system and so on

    You had to form your group manually for most of the xpac - which itself was a challenge depending the dungeon you wanted to do (hi Occulus and old kingdom).

    Wrath had two moments: one up to Ulduar (3.1) and one after that. The after was the beginning of the simplification that we got today.

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