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  1. #281
    The Normal Kasierith's Avatar
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    The same can be said about WoW. "Streamline and make it more accessable!". The people that enjoyed Classic and TBC WoW are today told "you are not the target audience anymore, sorry" and instead they target this casual MMORPG community that BARELY EXISTS. See the resemblence?
    WoW beat out the competition because it was more streamlined and accessible than any other major MMO on the market. Ability rotations, internet connectivity requirements, movement, hitboxes, not being locked into animations allowing more freedom, the ability to jump, the fact that there are literally modern toasters with the processing power to play vanilla wow... hell, I played vanilla and TBC on an IBM laptop with integrated graphics card from the 90s and did just fine with pvp and raiding on it. The other MMO that I explored was Dark Age of Camelot, which while I actually liked more than WoW had the problem where movement felt far more wooden, abilities less streamlined than WoW.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    WoW beat out the competition because it was more streamlined and accessible than any other major MMO on the market. Ability rotations, internet connectivity requirements, movement, hitboxes, not being locked into animations allowing more freedom, the ability to jump, the fact that there are literally modern toasters with the processing power to play vanilla wow... hell, I played vanilla and TBC on an IBM laptop with integrated graphics card from the 90s and did just fine with pvp and raiding on it. The other MMO that I explored was Dark Age of Camelot, which while I actually liked more than WoW had the problem where movement felt far more wooden, abilities less streamlined than WoW.
    100% agree with this, the time is right for WOW to be replaced by something else, I like hot key based MMORPGs, unfortunately WOW is the only one that is any good, the competitors fell by the wayside

  3. #283
    So so true op, they have practically stripped away all the systems that worked for wow. Only person who is happy is someone called Kypookins (gnome blood dk) on the wow forums who doesn't raid or do m+ and is 376 ilvl (same as my main I raided heroic uldir and did m+10 on until I quit a month ago). Kypookins recently started 'experimenting with taunting mobs' but even they aren't happy because they want more content. I feel that Kypookins is currently blizz target audience and all the systems that made the game great were sacrificed for people like Kypookins so they can play the game for a few months and then leave because they really aren't into it and don't do much of anything.


    What I really find disturbing is that the current devs and Ion haven't been in any way held accountable for butchering the game. Instead it seems they just put in cash grabs to make up for the lost subs: That fox store mount and the 'goodbye Im going away' bundle.

  4. #284
    Brewmaster TheVaryag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    This ENTIRE thing falls apart when you realize the most casual friendly expansion Wrath that people glorify these days was HYPER casual friendly and had over 11 million subs.
    Yet Wrath also started streamlining everything after their merger with Activision. Most notibly the last-half of the expansion was filled with that and that's when subs were going up a bit for people to try out.... aaaaand then promptly going down down down after cataclysm.

    Yes wrath was casual, but so was classic and tbc. But Wrath gave you too much shit, made too many things easy. It went from hard TBC dungeons to super easy streamlined and accessible dungeons in Wrath, the worst ending to our favorite character Arthas "Oh I planned on you killing my lieutenants and commanders, only so you could come here, for me to kill you and raise you as my NEW Commanders, muwahahah" jebus christ...
    Banned on WoW since April 2015 because Blizzard doesn't wanna help me when my account got hacked, Is being hacked not a good reason to return my account to me, Blizzard? I'm looking to speak to representatives and members of Blizzard's CS and other departments to help me fix this situation, since CS has failed me I want to seek other official channels. Feel free to message about this

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Roxxy View Post
    What I really find disturbing is that the current devs and Ion haven't been in any way held accountable for butchering the game. Instead it seems they just put in cash grabs to make up for the lost subs: That fox store mount and the 'goodbye Im going away' bundle.
    Be sure you distinguish between things the devs actually screwed up on, vs. things they did that were constrained by resource limits. As the game winds down, budgets will inevitably shink, so something that looks like a game design mistake may just be them attempting to deal with fewer options on what they can do.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    WoW is like 99% bear ass collection simulator -- D-Rock

  6. #286
    I find it very very hard to believe that titanforging, azerite pieces and mass gear dropping would be introduced because of resource limits. If anything these things have taken up more resources, devs trying desperately to balance pieces of gear, balance raids and failing. I have heard that azerite traits are a nightmare to try and balance. The devs are giving themselves more work if anything. Also with the power creep being so high now last tiers raids becomes obsolete in record time, pushing the devs to create more content faster.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Not really though.
    It literally is though. If you think the current content is more difficult than anything in Wrath, you're a fool.

    Not to mention the game had depth back then, and knowledge was actually required to play and build your character (which was also a thing).

  8. #288
    I have 3 friends that started to play in BFA without playing the game before that and all of them quit 1 month later after reaching 120 (with the 110 boost ofc, nice way to start the game..). Why did they quit? They felt like there is nothing to do after quickly gearing with normal heroic gear.

    Well GJ Blizzard with making the game easy, even your targeted audience dont like it.. what a joke.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by TheVaryag View Post
    Yet Wrath also started streamlining everything after their merger with Activision. Most notibly the last-half of the expansion was filled with that and that's when subs were going up a bit for people to try out.... aaaaand then promptly going down down down after cataclysm.
    Cataclysm bled subs because it made everything super tedious and difficult; if you were a casual player, the message was clear: Blizzard didn't want you playing their game any more. 4.3 stopped the flow for a time by giving us Raid Finder (For the first time all expansion, we had actual introductory raid encounters), more than two dungeons we were expected to run for VP, and by then they'd fixed the God-awful half-cap on weekly VP gain from 'lesser' sources being eaten into by 'better' ones.

    Why do you think Mists had actual things to do out in the world? For fuck's sake, the PvP side faction in Cata had more dailies than the rest of the expansion combined at launch.
    It became clear that it wasn’t realistic to try to get the audience back to being more hardcore, as it had been in the past. -- Tom Chilton

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Justpassing View Post
    Nobody has to "try". You just made an uninformed statement and you're backed into the corner. Nothing you say is correct, so again; get out
    We re out. Go play the game you enjoy.

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    It literally is though. If you think the current content is more difficult than anything in Wrath, you're a fool.

    Not to mention the game had depth back then, and knowledge was actually required to play and build your character (which was also a thing).
    Haha. Oh, thats a good one. You litterally have no clue.

  12. #292
    Anyone saying WotLK was 'harder' than BFA is delusional or a troll. Possibly both.

    I will say that while raid fights are generally better these days (with the engine able to do more stuff), that I DO think some raids have been leaning towards the "strangely too simple" side. Antornus and especially Uldir have had a lot of "I can't believe these fights are so stupid and easy". Mythic Taloc feels like what a normal mode WotLK boss felt like, lol. Heroic Taloc feels like a weird 5 man dungeon boss being fought by 10+ people. Fetid Devourer, even on Mythic, straight up feels like a motherfucking Molten Core boss (at least as a DPS, tanks at least have to worry about a swap mechanic I guess).

    I think raiding has strangely gotten a little easier. I didn't raid in Legion outside of Antornus and I've been raiding as a Rogue since Antornus (and will continue to do so through BFA) so we'll see if fights get anymore sophisticated than what we saw with Uldir.

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Exquis View Post
    To this date i can't think of a raid that felt more difficult to beat as a group than Ulduar. These days even shit-tier guilds beat most if not all of the mythic bosses before the next tier.
    We're currently at 1612 guilds that have beaten Mythic G'huun; compare that to previous tiers: Ulduar itself had 1566 guilds clear Alone in the Darkness (Yogg +0) which is actually incredibly comparable. Unfortunately since the merge we're unable to track who was in 10 or 25m groups. 2527 guilds completed heroic Anub in ToGC, with 1282 of them completing it without a single death in 25m. Counting 10m, 36280 kills on heroic and 19013 Insanity runs done. That doesn't look like an incredibly difficult raid tier. 1101 guilds completed Heroic LK in 25 man groups and 5664 completed it in 10 man, again all fairly comparable to current raid content numbers for completion. For Tier 11 we'll go with Sinestra, the most difficult/least killed end raid boss, and 2147 guilds finished her off as well. 1374 in 10 man and 685 in 25 man for Sinestra; if you go by Nefarian we're in the 3k+ range for guilds killing him on heroic.

    Heroic Rag was a joke compared to other raid tiers. 6666 guilds in 10 man but only 491 in 25 man; the raid was incredibly unbalanced and skewed toward 10 man groups. The same thing was the case in Dragon Soul with 9059 kills in 10 man and only 1191 kills in 25 man, but 1191 in 25m is still quite comparable to the 1612 of Mythic G'huun. You're comparing up to 29775 players completing Dragon Soul up to 32240 players completing G'huun. MoP? Heroic Sha of Fear: 1491 in 10m, only 303 in 25m. Again, an expansion with a very unbalanced setup toward 10m groups. Throne? 4750 Ra-den 10m kills, 368 in 25m. This is the reason that flex mode was implemented during this expansion; they found it impossible to properly balance between such drastic differences in group sizes. 2861 10m Garrosh kills, 1026 25m Garrosh kills. These are all using heroic mode, which is the equivalent to current Mythic content that you seem to think everyone is completing.

    WoD: 20 man mythic only. Now we'll see some number changes right? 2026 Blackhand kills, 2850 Archimonde kills. Hmmm, those are both easier to kill than G'huun. Legion maybe? 2003 Gul'dan kills, 892 Kil'jaeden kills, 1748 Argus kills. Overall pretty comparable numbers again other than Kil'jaeden which is a complete bitch of a boss fight to be perfectly honest; I'm not surprised it was under 1k guilds.

    So what I'm seeing throughout literally every single tier is completely comparable numbers literally from as far back as Wowprogress can track. You're looking at, in general, between 1000-2000 guilds clearing all current content every single tier, with 10m raids being much higher generally. Outside of the handful of outlying bosses (Ra-den, Kil'jaeden, Sha of Fear) where 25m was incredibly punishing, every single tier has been completed by a very normal amount of players as it always has been. You're pulling your anecdotal evidence right out of your ass when there's hard evidence to go off of on an easy to find website.

    Even the part where you talk about raid level gear from badges is incorrect; Isle of Quel'danas with the Sunwell Plateau patch added that with Badges of Justice giving gear equivalent to Black Temple raid gear (very close in ilvl, like 5-10 lower), which was followed up by Emblems of Frost and Valor in Wrath which let you fill in belt/boot/OH slots during Naxx, then more in Ulduar, then more in ToC (even allowing the purchase of low level tier gear) and then more into ICC.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    WOTLK was stupidly hardcore compared to current game. get out.
    I'm sorry what...did you play during wrath?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    If you think the current content is more difficult than anything in Wrath, you're a fool.
    .
    Anddd another one who has no idea what he's talking about

  15. #295
    Back in wotlk, BC and vanilla wow was a MMO, now its a solo game with the option to play with others.

    You can get the the highest possible ilvl and best gear by playing the game completely solo.
    Wow is not a MMO, it's a single player game with the option for co-op.

  16. #296
    Bloodsail Admiral Alkizon's Avatar
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    Do you even understand (both of you) that you're now rest against understanding definition of "content"? Ie, you are arguing and comparing things without convinced of sameness of your understanding of this concept. Ie, your discussion is easily killed by one simple phrase: a lot of dif.modes is progress, not content (these concepts aren't interchangeable now, also scaling is none of both). But progress itself in modern interpretation is simplified to obtain items of a certain level - here progress ends. They offered you artifacts first, and now AA and neck as a substitute for progress, but NOT CONTENT.

    We dealt with this many times when we were arguing about M+ and about modern raids design (+(+)+(+/+/+/+)+(+/+/+)+/+(+/+/+)). I also mentioned it a little here, but apparently I overdid it and most people ignored the message due to its size:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    In fact, WotLK in some sense was very much tolerant (compared to Legion&Co) due to that there was a certain height (ceiling/temporary limit) of growth in everything, which means that person could work, then relax a little, then switch to twink and work again, go back to main and relax again and so several times during single expansion without any rush (both PvE and PvP). Do you feel this now? From my own experience, this is main thing that most people did before project "commercialization", somewhere between BC and Legion. But problem is that faster game "goes" (and "faster faster" is now its basic philosophy), the more often switch happen, which means that period of fun is shorter, and the higher soft cap is (under "soft cap" I mean: average stair to which specific player can climb without changing own game style intensity/complexity - current amount of content that can consume and depth of progress that own abilities' level allows to reach; as part of this, stuff that happens now is even more pitiable, since all content is consumed easily through easiest difficulty, and progress, which's indicator are equipment(ilvl)+AP, isn't attainable in principle by virtue of mechanics (process is accessible to all regardless of ability and experience, since doesn't require any such stuff to participate (=borderless in terms of content), but is unachievable for anyone); don't forget that current average player is like a dog in "food absorption" framework - doesn't know own measure, because game doesn't allow/teach to determine it), so the less it happens during one expansion. What follows from all this - total number of once average player's "fun"-hours inevitably decreases and "work"-hours increases... Ladies and gentlemen, it's time to complain to trade unions!
    So if a lot of dif.modes isn't content, then you should compare the easiest difficulty for particular “content” for adequacy of your discussion (precisely when discussing content difficulty), but not the most complex one. It's normal vs LFR and now think about what is it for Ulduar. Do you both understand this?

    But if you want to compare progress difficulty, here is a smarter maze, because see the quote: now "all content is consumed easily through easiest difficulty, and progress, which's indicator are equipment(ilvl)+AP, isn't attainable in principle by virtue of mechanics (process is accessible to all regardless of ability and experience, since doesn't require any such stuff to participate (=borderless in terms of content), but is unachievable for anyone)". They simply missing development "ceiling" in current design (not only for a particular player due to limited time and opportunities/abilities, but in general for all). There is no end for "progress" for anyone and since there is no end, so there is no goal to reach that end, which was (still is! I'm not talking specifically about this game) main playing motivator for most people. That is, developer’s trick isn't to make it unattainable in principle, but so that it can be reached by average at a certain time defined by devs (even if this time is transferred to next expansion for some and for some in advance of this deadline), and concepts of progress and content shouldn't be separated here, their division is artificial and vicious for this particular game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    For reference: last boss killing at any level of complexity, taking into account current design, is the end of “raid” content (doesn't metter if it M or LFR), and progress due to budding it out as separate concept is now associated exclusively with set of BIS gear for current expansion stage (in some sense, it also did before, but it was limited by “content” earlier - steps of testing your abilities and accumulated knowledge/motility/social factor (friends' help/buying), but now it's not - no reason, no motivation, apparently, challenge is clearly not working when it only one motivator, curiosity/interest and envy are much stronger ones).

    Therefore, you get all final content in LFR, and progress continues by freebie “hatching” daily/weekly quests and by going to easiest of "profitable" mystics available to you (not you, but average player, also, judging by forum, not only average...) - with minimal for you labor costs (= you get progress in exchange for subscription, very slow and almost uncontrollable (what is also absolutely true for those who're truly involved in difficultest progress stages), but... which cancels bar for your skills that you had to overcome back then), which still “keeps” you with its accessibility until you realize that you're mired in routine of useless progress for you in terms of content, and then you'll understand that this all turns into challenge/E-sports, which not driving by curiosity or interest in content meaning, this could be enough for someone especially if game holds gameplay bar, but somehow I strongly doubt this last in relation to current game *looking at even if not accurate, but assumptions regarding subscribers number*
    MORE HERE (kind of tl;dr HERE)

    So, what did you decide to talk about?

    ps. I'd also discuss their abnormal simplification/understanding of "progress" in current design, for it's "stupidity follows stupidity" in this sense, but it won't be appropriate here in my opinion, just redundant.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2020-06-12 at 07:56 AM.
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  17. #297
    TL;DR: Heroes of the Storms is a MOBA made for people that does not like MOBAs. BfA is a MMORPG made for people that does not like MMORPGs.

  18. #298
    Bloodsail Admiral Alkizon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    TL;DR: Heroes of the Storms is a MOBA made for people that does not like MOBAs. BfA is a MMORPG made for people that does not like MMORPGs.
    You should put it into the OP
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  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Cronovey View Post
    We're currently at 1612 guilds that have beaten Mythic G'huun; compare that to previous tiers: Ulduar itself had 1566 guilds clear Alone in the Darkness (Yogg +0) which is actually incredibly comparable.
    I have doubts about this number.
    Alone in the Darkness (25man version) had its first kill roughly 3 months(!) after Patch 3.1 release.

    So if we're looking at the 4-5 Month frame where Ulduar was actually "current content", i do not believe that over 1500 Guilds then went on to kill Yogg+0 that quickly, even with we apply the timeframe of mythic Uldir, i do not believe the number comes even close.

    Yogg+0 was farmed hard once ICC was out and the gear made the boss piss easy to farm, since it awarded a unique mount, incentive to do was relatively high.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    TL;DR: Heroes of the Storms is a MOBA made for people that does not like MOBAs. BfA is a MMORPG made for people that does not like MMORPGs.
    Wow was a MMO made for people too casual for MMO (success).

    Wow today is a single player game for people who sometimes wants to group up.

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