WoW is pulling a HotS

[Kumorii]

I mean, I prefer that they made HotS as it is instead of a complete clone of other MOBAS. Biggest reason why I play it is because it's shorter more intense matches. I stopped playing dota2 after 2k hours just because I get bored during the match, they are so long and sometimes you aren't doing much except trying to get things to happen.

I'm honestly surprised that they supported the ESport scene so long as they did since everyone knew it wouldn't be as competitive. Which is ok.

Not really sure what the point is though since blizzard has been known since a long time that their games are actually casual friendly, more so than hardcore. People tend to go hardcore with the games, which they still do with wow, but the base is still very casual. Deviating from that norm wouldn't be blizzard.

[Shiny212]

Yeah gotta solo Uldir mythic, all you gotta do is spend time on introspection and believe in yourself!



Nobody has to "try". You just made an uninformed statement and you're backed into the corner. Nothing you say is correct, so again; get out

Nothing I've said is untrue friend. How many people do you think even enter mythic raids? When I say solo experience, you know very well what I mean. Your experience of WoW now is essentially spent 90% all alone, quests, rep grinds, and world quests. The raid is a teensy part, and the vast majority only do the brainless version of LFR/normal difficulty.

Imo very little has changed "at the top", except forcing top players to go through more menial shit, like time gates, rep grinds and world quests to stay competitive beyond being a top player. A mythic raid now is hard for sure, but so was yogg saron 0+.

[Th3Scourge]

Ahahahahahahaha

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

You do realise you could farm heroic dungeons while blindfolded and get tier sets, right? That Blizzard had to artificially lengthen Heroic progression by adding a 25 wipe counter to Heroic raids that wouldn't let you continue, because otherwise guilds would plow through the hardest content?

That gearscore rose to the top, because the content was so easy that the numbers only mattered?

Yep and I also remember how stupidly hard Ulduar hardmodes were for 99% of guilds when the content was top tier. You could argue it was the right amount of casual-friendliness, although I was definitely a critic at the time of CRZ dungeon finder and the welfare epics, although the free epics started in 2.4 with the Sunwell patch. Burning Crusade had it right imo, but Wrath appealed to the masses and kept the hardcores 'content' enough

[Saberstrike]

In current game player power is equalized completely, time put in equals power, with nothing else in the equation. And it's a single player experience. Go figure.

Funnily enough, this is also a casual's mindset. "I grinded more than player 2, therefore I should be stronger.". No. Just because you spent more time in the game doesn't mean you should be better than someone who plays less, but plays better.

Player power being equalized within a small ~10-20% margin is a good thing. Or well; It would be if classes had any depth to them, and rewards weren't completely random regardless of how well you play...

I'll concede that BfA is all kinds of fucked up, but it's not because it gives gear to everybody.

The bigger problem is that this game has nothing other than gear & transmogs to offer, no deep story, no player choices, nothing MEANINGFUL. It needs to innovate and find ways to reward good players with new things, because gear & mounts in themselves aren't rewarding -- not in the least because most of us have hundreds of mounts, and one more on the pile matters very little.

I miss things like Marshals / Grand Marshals getting the privilege of talking in world defense channel, when everyone else couldn't. Stuff like this is highly more motivating than 'yay, +1% dps!' when my dps is already enough to down every boss I want to kill.

[Gorsameth]

Putting aside that the game as a whole isn't just the raids; I'd love to see a LFR team from legion/WoD/BFA era try heigan the unclean.

We know how that goes because it happened frequently considering Naxx was pugged.
7 people die to the dance and the remaining 3 kill him because he was that easy.

[CasualFilth]

This ENTIRE thing falls apart when you realize the most casual friendly expansion Wrath that people glorify these days was HYPER casual friendly and had over 11 million subs.

Yes, because Ulduar and Heroic ICC were casual friendly right?

[Shiny212]

Funnily enough, this is also a casual's mindset. "I grinded more than player 2, therefore I should be stronger.". No. Just because you spent more time in the game doesn't mean you should be better than someone who plays less, but plays better.

Player power being equalized within a small ~10-20% margin is a good thing. Or well; It would be if classes had any depth to them, and rewards weren't completely random regardless of how well you play...

I'll concede that BfA is all kinds of fucked up, but it's not because it gives gear to everybody.

The bigger problem is that this game has nothing other than gear & transmogs to offer, no deep story, no player choices, nothing MEANINGFUL. It needs to innovate and find ways to reward good players with new things, because gear & mounts in themselves aren't rewarding -- not in the least because most of us have hundreds of mounts, and one more on the pile matters very little.

Maybe you misunderstood me, are we agreed? My view: everything post-WOTLK has progressively driven wow further off course with its overly casual mindset. Where they increasingly offer reward based on time spent, not on skill or ingenuity or whatever you wanna call it.

As for BFA, to me it's real simple, blizz has become too transparent in their greed, where the entire design philosophy isn't concerned with fun, but how to make you feel you have to log in as frequently as possible.

[Nnyco]

WOTLK was stupidly hardcore compared to current game. get out.

Do a heroic dungeon a day to be raid geared, so hardcore.

[Trumpcat]

WoW in maintenance mode in a few years, like OP says, means WoW would be nearly 20 years old.

That would mean it's the most successful game in history of gaming.

[Shiny212]

Do a heroic dungeon a day to be raid geared, so hardcore.

That just wasn't the case sir.

[Saberstrike]

Putting aside that the game as a whole isn't just the raids; I'd love to see a LFR team from legion/WoD/BFA era try heigan the unclean.

Oh no, you have to run left to right then right to left, such mechanics, such skill...

I mean, I concede that most LFR playerbase can't even do that, but it's objectively not hard.

I know the game as a whole isn't just raids, but again... Have you done a +10 recently? It really feels a lot like old BC heroics, except you have 2-3 times the mechanics ontop of that. ... And also every class functions within a certain margin and you don't just feel like you wasted your life if you want to play a sub rogue or a boomkin.

Maybe you misunderstood me, are we agreed? My view: everything post-WOTLK has progressively driven wow further off course with its overly casual mindset. Where they increasingly offer reward based on time spent, not on skill or ingenuity or whatever you wanna call it.

As for BFA, to me it's real simple, blizz has become too transparent in their greed, where the entire design philosophy isn't concerned with fun, but how to make you feel you have to log in as frequently as possible.

I feel like that's always been the case. If we go as far back as molten core, -- yes, you had to get off your ass and find a raid group, but again. You could AFK half the raid and cast 2 spells a boss, and because RNG wills it get full t1 in a matter of 2 months.

Or you could be the best tank in the universe AND STILL NOT HAVE FUCKING THUNDERFURY 20 YEARS LATER.

Of course Ulduar, ICC and -- as much as I hate to admit it -- collesium were decently challenging; As well as Cata's raids / 5-mans. But I don't see a lot of people nostalgic for running Halls of Origination, or speedrunning Synestra.

[Shiny212]

Oh no, you have to run left to right then right to left, such mechanics, such skill...

I mean, I concede that most LFR playerbase can't even do that, but it's objectively not hard.

I know the game as a whole isn't just raids, but again... Have you done a +10 recently? It really feels a lot like old BC heroics, except you have 2-3 times the mechanics ontop of that. ... And also every class functions within a certain margin and you don't just feel like you wasted your life if you want to play a sub rogue or a boomkin.

I haven't done any in BFA at all, but I did in legion and it was pretty fun, and it deffo did feel like TBC. However, my issue isn't with the top level content, is the endless treadmill beneath it that makes the entire game such a chore.

I refuse to do one more fucking world quest so I can make yet another character so I can yet again mindlessly level through the brain-decaying experience we've been left with. All in hopes that after too many hours to count, you can do some mythic +. But lets face it that'll be a fraction of the time you spent on the game.

[SirBeef]

You needed 1800 rating to buy the basic pvp weapon. Catchup gear was from the previous patch. Try again?



Putting aside that the game as a whole isn't just the raids; I'd love to see a LFR team from legion/WoD/BFA era try heigan the unclean.

You could spam heroics and buy some raid gear. You could still AFK your way in BGs to good PvP gear. You could easily PuG 10m raids and get raid gear. If you wanted the best you had to organize just like today. And just like today, the more time you spent the better gear you got. Sure the guy who only does WQs can luck his way into a M raid ilvl. It would take him playing non stop.. But those people are even rarer that those who raid mythic. The fact remains that you could ding 80 and get gear. Today, you ding 120, have to farm AP to raise your HoA, yes its faster to catch up the longer you wait, get the right Azerite gear, get multiples if you want to multispec. Fact remains it was easier and way more alt friendly. I still believe Cata was the more alt friendly, but WotLK was a very casual expansion.

[XDurionX]

That just wasn't the case sir.

Of course it was. You could get T5,5 Gear from badges in BC already.

[SirBeef]

I feel like that's always been the case. If we go as far back as molten core, -- yes, you had to get off your ass and find a raid group, but again. You could AFK half the raid and cast 2 spells a boss, and because RNG wills it get full t1 in a matter of 2 months.

Or spend the entirety of Vanilla and only have 4 items, 2 of them the BoEs I bought off the AH. Paladin gear just never fucking dropped for our raid. We had 4 Paladins and no one had more than 5 T1 pieces.

[Shiny212]

You could spam heroics and buy some raid gear. You could still AFK your way in BGs to good PvP gear. You could easily PuG 10m raids and get raid gear. If you wanted the best you had to organize just like today. And just like today, the more time you spent the better gear you got. Sure the guy who only does WQs can luck his way into a M raid ilvl. It would take him playing non stop.. But those people are even rarer that those who raid mythic. The fact remains that you could ding 80 and get gear. Today, you ding 120, have to farm AP to raise your HoA, yes its faster to catch up the longer you wait, get the right Azerite gear, get multiples if you want to multispec. Fact remains it was easier and way more alt friendly. I still believe Cata was the more alt friendly, but WotLK was a very casual expansion.

You can definitely argue that it went faster, the experience now is slowed down to force players to play for longer, since blizz cant figure out how to just make it fun anymore.

[Justpassing]

Nothing I've said is untrue friend. How many people do you think even enter mythic raids? When I say solo experience, you know very well what I mean. Your experience of WoW now is essentially spent 90% all alone, quests, rep grinds, and world quests. The raid is a teensy part, and the vast majority only do the brainless version of LFR/normal difficulty.

Imo very little has changed "at the top", except forcing top players to go through more menial shit, like time gates, rep grinds and world quests to stay competitive beyond being a top player. A mythic raid now is hard for sure, but so was yogg saron 0+.

I'm sorry but what are you even talking about? Timegating? How about ICC? Rep grinds, you need Tortollan to be a top raider? World quests? What world quests? IEs are the best AP source. I literally have no idea what you're talking about mate... What does Tortollan rep has to do with a top raider? Or playing allied races?

what.jpg

[FuxieDK]

WOTLK was stupidly hardcore compared to current game. get out.

Apart from LK HC and Yogg+0, there wasn't anything hardcore in WotLK..

[Shiny212]

I'm sorry but what are you even talking about? Timegating? How about ICC? Rep grinds, you need Tortollan to be a top raider? World quests? What world quests? IEs are the best AP source. I literally have no idea what you're talking about mate... What does Tortollan rep has to do with a top raider? Or playing allied races?

what.jpg

I guess you forgot about that thing you have around your neck. I guess you forgot about the every-other-week massive gear rewards for you to literally "pick up". The list goes on..search your feelings.

[Saberstrike]

Apart from LK HC and Yogg+0, there wasn't anything hardcore in WotLK..

You forgot OS103D, it was decently challenging with appropriate gear.

Its just too bad 25m baby mode nax dropped better gear and made it trivial...