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  1. #401
    That's correct, welfare epics originally referred to PvP rewards back in TBC.

  2. #402
    The Insane FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Welfare epics (and the term "welfare epic") were introduced in BC, not Wrath.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The devs probably made the same mistake you are making there and thought the casualization stopped the growth, and decided to go back to more hardcore in Cataclysm.

    Only when that failed spectacularly did they realize the growth hadn't stopped because of the casualization. Correlation had not represented causation.
    Actually technically vanilla introduced welfare epics.

    Dire maul when it came out the gear was better then molten core, and made running MC only a thing to do when you couldnt fill slots with dire maul gear...
    dayum that ogre magi staff..
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Azerite is absolutely RNG you are right. You have no idea what traits will be on that piece you got from a random source until you roll it. I've literally had a Warfront piece that had the "opposite faction" passive and no passive/proc for my spec but it did for the other 2.

  3. #403
    The Lightbringer Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sansnom View Post
    It is always curious why people who no longer likes the game or Blizzard continues to post on this forum.
    It is always curious how the defenders of the statu quo often have nothing better than this silly line.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    Thrall will humblebrag about how he doesn't want it [to be Warchief].
    Saurfang'll probably die or say he's 'too tired'.
    Baine will gasp for air as he plops Anduin's boot out of his mouth and say 'I'll be High King of the Horde!'.

  4. #404
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    All I can say is, theyve ran out of anything ingenious anymore. They can rehash only for so much (and they want less work for it), that we just arent impressed anymore. I did enjoy the multitudes of Artifact Weapons. Felt like those weapons alone had more content compared what BFA is XD

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by Enan1981 View Post
    All I can say is, theyve ran out of anything ingenious anymore. They can rehash only for so much (and they want less work for it), that we just arent impressed anymore. I did enjoy the multitudes of Artifact Weapons. Felt like those weapons alone had more content compared what BFA is XD
    I still firmly believe the only reason people enjoyed Legion so much was because of the Artifact Skins farming. Why did people enjoy Artifact skins farming in Legion? Because it felt like an investment. Once you unlocked the skins, they were yours forever. Not obsulete the next minor version of the game.

    Legions best feature is to MANY people the Mage Towers. Why? Because 1. It was challengeing and 2. It felt like an investment (unlocking a cool Artifact Skin permanently). People could not just wait until next expansion to do it. People could not just wait for some catch up mechanic to make it easy content. The Mage Tower was completely going against the principals of all their other systems.

    BfA is a huge step back in the "investment" feeling. Catch up mechanics are trough the roof (free 400ilvl for killing 10 horde anyone?) and you have that much less cool Transmog gear to farm with the removal of Class Sets and Artifact skins. Playing it just feels like a waste of time because you know all you have worked so hard for will be obsulete in the next "season".

    BfA is actually a lot better than Legion for my friend that is only interested in PvP. He does not care about transmog. Only how much he can "pwn" in PvP. In Legion PvP gear barely mattered and you had to do a bunch of PvE to be good in PvP and your rewards from PvP was garbage compared to for instance the PvP world quests. In BfA he can actually cap Conquest points to get a predictable reward, his gear matters and the general balance is a lot more fast phased. He thinks Legion is the worst expansion Blizzard has ever done.
    Last edited by MiiiMiii; 2019-02-04 at 11:41 AM.

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Narwal View Post
    Assume you are correct that Wrath was the initial casualization of the game, the data actually shows the opposite of what you claim. The claim you make that Wrath was highly successful, even catered to casuals.


    https://goo.gl/images/zxJA2h

    What is shown here, is that Wrath is the period of wow where it stopped growing. Was it the peak of the game that had the most users? Yes. Did Wrath earn that peak, or did it inherit the peak because of the success of Vanilla and BC? It's also important to remember that Wrath had the thematic peak of the entire WoW series to help bolster its numbers. Based on the successive growth of the game that Wrath was handed, and the thematic peak it was given, I would say that Wrath actually objectively failed, when it comes to the health of the WoW Franchise. It did not hand Cataclysm a growing player-base, but an objectively stagnant one that saw little growth over the entire expansion. It also used the most compelling lore of the warcraft story, which would make any theme following it seem less compelling. Even if there are more compelling stories to tell, Cataclysm was not given one, and this is coming from someone who actually liked the fact we were slaying dragons again.
    Just a quick question, when choosing between growth and retention which one do you think is the more relevant one in terms of gauging quality?

  7. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    I still firmly believe the only reason people enjoyed Legion so much was because of the Artifact Skins farming. Why did people enjoy Artifact skins farming in Legion? Because it felt like an investment. Once you unlocked the skins, they were yours forever. Not obsulete the next minor version of the game.

    Legions best feature is to MANY people the Mage Towers. Why? Because 1. It was challengeing and 2. It felt like an investment (unlocking a cool Artifact Skin permanently). People could not just wait until next expansion to do it. People could not just wait for some catch up mechanic to make it easy content. The Mage Tower was completely going against the principals of all their other systems.

    BfA is a huge step back in the "investment" feeling. Catch up mechanics are trough the roof (free 400ilvl for killing 10 horde anyone?) and you have that much less cool Transmog gear to farm with the removal of Class Sets and Artifact skins. Playing it just feels like a waste of time because you know all you have worked so hard for will be obsulete in the next "season".

    BfA is actually a lot better than Legion for my friend that is only interested in PvP. He does not care about transmog. Only how much he can "pwn" in PvP. In Legion PvP gear barely mattered and you had to do a bunch of PvE to be good in PvP and your rewards from PvP was garbage compared to for instance the PvP world quests. In BfA he can actually cap Conquest points to get a predictable reward, his gear matters and the general balance is a lot more fast phased. He thinks Legion is the worst expansion Blizzard has ever done.
    Even though it gave the illusion of content, it still was something you can work on. Now, theres literally nothing. You level up, do world quests, island expedition, warfronts, inquisitions. Nothing else

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Actually technically vanilla introduced welfare epics.

    Dire maul when it came out the gear was better then molten core, and made running MC only a thing to do when you couldnt fill slots with dire maul gear...
    dayum that ogre magi staff..
    Not so much. Nobody called them welfare epics, because the gear wasn't actually purple.

    It's tough to find pre-squish stats, but from what I can tell the MC staff was better anyway. Of course they may have changed stats and such, and I didn't play a caster in vanilla so I have no personal memory.

    https://classic.wowhead.com/item=188...f-of-dominance
    https://classic.wowhead.com/item=185...-the-ogre-magi
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2019-02-04 at 06:19 PM.

  9. #409
    The Insane FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Not so much. Nobody called them welfare epics, because the gear wasn't actually purple.

    It's tough to find pre-squish stats, but from what I can tell the MC staff was better anyway. Of course they may have changed stats and such, and I didn't play a caster in vanilla so I have no personal memory.

    https://classic.wowhead.com/item=188...f-of-dominance
    https://classic.wowhead.com/item=185...-the-ogre-magi
    just because its not purple does notm ean it is fucking super strong.

    and yes that staff of dominance was better, only after blizzard buffed molten core gear across the board as when it was first out, all the way till if i remember correct AQ
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Azerite is absolutely RNG you are right. You have no idea what traits will be on that piece you got from a random source until you roll it. I've literally had a Warfront piece that had the "opposite faction" passive and no passive/proc for my spec but it did for the other 2.

  10. #410
    Back in vanilla, purple gear had a higher item budget per itemlvl than blue. Itemlvls weren't everything back then, like they are now.

    I thought I had remembered them buffing MC gear, thanks.

  11. #411
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    I doubt Blizzard Dota could've managed to acquire that many hardcore moba-players even if they had stuck to their guns, since those people are already invested in their game of choice. The way HotS went made the genre more approachable to another kind of player and it was good like that. I think it was even profitable, just not within expectations. I'm not into e-sports myself so I can't say how well HGC and the like were doing, but their existence was at the very least a show of support for the game. Their end and the news of some devs being moved to other teams were enough to make people think the game has no future, at least one as glorious as it still seemed last November. It looks like there are some events still in line for the game, so it's not completely maintenance mode yet. I will be casually playing like I always was.

    On topic, I'd argue WoW has been more casual-oriented since Wrath, which is over 10 years now. I'd worry more about how tone-deaf the devs seem to be with everything they've done in BFA, from storyline to systems like Expeditions and Warmode, which is quite different from a perceived demand for hardcore gameplay. We just want good storylines and good gameplay. Legion was a wholesome bunch of that.
    Now you see it. Now you don't.

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    It is always curious how the defenders of the statu quo often have nothing better than this silly line.
    Does not invalidate what I said about the non-players/haters that still post on this forum.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    What MMO Elements does the game not have now:

    Complete lack of interesting world content. Basically an instance queue simulator where you sit in a hub zone and queue for content. Sharding has made the world not feel alive and lag disgustingly. There is no sense of community on a server because of sharding.
    You are not answering the question.

    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    What RPG elements does that game not have now?

    Complete lack of character progression. Pathetic amount of character customization for a 14 year old billion dollar game. No new abilities or talents earned over the course of 20 levels and 4+ years. Completely randomized stats. Lack of interesting items. RNG on RNG on RNG on RNG. Complete lack of control on defining "gearing systems" like azerite, everything is "chance to proc X, chance to do X".
    What customization did it have in the past? The old talent trees? Most people had the same cookie cutter build with the same 80& talents. What randomize stats are you talking about?

    Interesting items are not RPG.

    If those are your ideas of RPG, then I doubt you played any decent RPG.

    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    I could go on longer if you want?
    [/QUOTE]

    Sure. I am not stopping you.

  13. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sansnom View Post
    Does not invalidate what I said about the non-players/haters that still post on this forum.
    You labelling someone a hater doesn't invalidate automatically all of his/her arguments. Same with people who aren't playing actively, but bother to follow what's happening with WoW. Non sequitur ftw.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    Thrall will humblebrag about how he doesn't want it [to be Warchief].
    Saurfang'll probably die or say he's 'too tired'.
    Baine will gasp for air as he plops Anduin's boot out of his mouth and say 'I'll be High King of the Horde!'.

  14. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Do you even understand (both of you) that you're now rest against understanding definition of "content"? Ie, you are arguing and comparing things without convinced of sameness of your understanding of this concept. Ie, your discussion is easily killed by one simple phrase: a lot of dif.modes is progress, not content (these concepts aren't interchangeable now, also scaling is none of both). But progress itself in modern interpretation is simplified to obtain items of a certain level - here progress ends. They offered you artifacts first, and now AA and neck as a substitute for progress, but NOT CONTENT.

    We dealt with this many times when we were arguing about M+ and about modern raids design (+(+)+(+/+/+/+)+(+/+/+)+/+(+/+/+)). I also mentioned it a little here, but apparently I overdid it and most people ignored the message due to its size:

    So if a lot of dif.modes isn't content, then you should compare the easiest difficulty for particular “content” for adequacy of your discussion (precisely when discussing content difficulty), but not the most complex one. It's normal vs LFR and now think about what is it for Ulduar. Do you both understand this?

    But if you want to compare progress difficulty, here is a smarter maze, because see the quote: now "all content is consumed easily through easiest difficulty, and progress, which's indicator are equipment(ilvl)+AP, isn't attainable in principle by virtue of mechanics (process is accessible to all regardless of ability and experience, since doesn't require any such stuff to participate (=borderless in terms of content), but is unachievable for anyone)". They simply missing development "ceiling" in current design (not only for a particular player due to limited time and opportunities/abilities, but in general for all). There is no end for "progress" for anyone and since there is no end, so there is no goal to reach that end, which was (still is! I'm not talking specifically about this game) main playing motivator for most people. That is, developer’s trick isn't to make it unattainable in principle, but so that it can be reached by average at a certain time defined by devs (even if this time is transferred to next expansion for some and for some in advance of this deadline), and concepts of progress and content shouldn't be separated here, their division is artificial and vicious for this particular game.

    MORE HERE

    So, what did you decide to talk about?

    ps. I'd also discuss their abnormal simplification/understanding of "progress" in current design, for it's "stupidity follows stupidity" in this sense, but it won't be appropriate here in my opinion, just redundant.
    No idea what post you're talking about here or what you're even talking about. My answer is yellow with a slight hint of green.

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    The history of HotS:
    It started out being called Blizzard Dota. It had the Dota map, it had items, it had everything that was needed to be concidered a competetor to LoL and Dota 2. It was just a SC2 custom map. Blizzard showed it off on a Blizzcon at an early stage, and people really loved it!

    Then they decided to move it out of SC2 to their own game. Here, they started "innovating". They changed name to Heroes of the Storm, removed items, they made some gimmicky maps etc. to a point it could no longer be concidered a competetor to the MOBAs anymore. "Streamline and make it more accessable!". Nobody wanted to switch from LoL or Dota 2 to this game.
    Funny, since I swapped from Dota 2 to LoL after playing since WC3 Dota. It was refreshing not having to worry about somehow finding gold as a support. Different map objectives added a lot of variety. Taking camps was more enjoyable.

    I think the only problem was that because of things like no gold and shared EXP, the lack of advertising and promotion left others to fill in the blanks. For years I referred to it dismissively as a "Fisher Price: My First Moba" before I actually spent time with it at a LAN during one of the open Beta weekends.

  16. #416
    Mechagnome Alkizon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    No idea what post you're talking about here or what you're even talking about. My answer is yellow with a slight hint of green.
    Literally the one to which I refer. You talked (with that person) about content "hardcoreness", and I pointed out to you angle of inaccuracy at level which you are trying to compare it in (due to concepts separation of content and progress in devs' heads and consequently - design)
    ------
    if in brief:
    ...if you compare content, then new one is many times easier, and if you compare progress, then due to its technical component (boss mechanics/unattainability due to characteristics of itemization) it's easier in old version, which doesn't prevent it from being more difficult for other reasons (raids' group mechanics (threat vs resource managment, preparing), although this is also a question with regard to "illegal" toolkit size, which most modern players (had to?) have), which means that answer isn't simple and comparison process requires additional parameters;
    ...when we talked about progress before, we also mostly meant specific content available to you and now this won't be true (raids are content and progress, bosses are stages of content and progress, but modes aren't any of it since you already saw everything here; it's just a little bit more of progress (ilvl/ap?), but not content, if gameplay is interesting enough, it could turn into something resembling PvP seasons and can be quite entertaining, but, I repeat, neither this nor the other is content and you know it; competitions (E-sport?) is virtually lack of content and gameplay is the only thing (together with "watching its shou") that they offer you)
    ------

    Actually, everything is written there, I don't see what could create some kind of difficulty in understanding

    ps. The key: "current" complexity system (most progress part) has nothing to do with content, unlike "previous" one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Still makes no sense what so ever.
    Whatever then
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-03-21 at 08:45 PM.
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  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    WOTLK was stupidly hardcore compared to current game. get out.
    My sides pain from the laughter after this joke
    Modern gaming apologist: I once tasted diarrhea so shit is fine.

    "People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an excercise of power, are barbarians" - George Lucas 1988

  18. #418
    What happened to mmorpgs following WoW, trying to compete with it? They failed. The same happened to Blizzard when they tried to catch up with the most popular games out there, which were esport favorites, with a game that's very much in the same ballpark as the others? Why should anyone switch beyond loving the Blizzard franchises? HOTS was too late, had a shitty name, and didn't give people anything more than they already had. WoW is in a dominant position, they still have a good amount of people playing (and paying), and their challenge is not to draw players from other mmorpgs, but to keep existing players happy and get some of the quitters back.
    Mother pus bucket!

  19. #419
    Making the game more accessible for casual friendly isn't the problem. I always find it funny that the people who claim this, usually are only doing lfr and normal at best, let alone heroic clearing and mythic progression.

    The game's current decline is basically because it's a 2004 game and time's change. The MMO genre just isn't as popular as it once was and teens today are getting into other games like Fortnite, Apex and most likely soon there will be another type of genre and Battle Royale's will die down too. Instead of catering to some hardcore group that doesn't pay the bills, Blizzard is doing right by making the game more casual friendly(I dont see how it is anymore today than it was in WotLK) and they should also be planning on moving Warcraft's format to a different genre imo, maybe one that suits the franchise better than chasing trending ones that fizzle out after a couple years(I personally would love an ElderScrolls/Witcher like Warcraft game)

    And with HotS(blizzard AllStars is what I remembered the name being), they chased after a trend that was starting to die off. It would be like if Blizzard announced a Blizzard Battle Royale today, it would come out at the fall of the genre.

  20. #420
    Mechagnome Alkizon's Avatar
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    they should also be planning on moving Warcraft's format to a different genre
    Something like this...
    no? Perhaps also...
    Don't laugh, please, this is serious question. Problem is, that in this sense it also won't be suitable even now, because, for absence of normal design, they (in the end many of them are elitist [email protected]) tries to complicate it in other ways, which would be unnecessary for such public. Everything is much simpler, and the answer is in choosing perfect golden mean, but they want everyone and repeat it loudly every Q&A and this is a problem.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-03-21 at 11:08 AM.
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