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  1. #421
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    WOTLK was stupidly hardcore compared to current game. get out.
    Current wow is a joke no denying that, but dont forget that wotlk introduced wrath babies. You remember that term? Wrath players who felt entitled to gear but couldn’t cut it with vanilla and tbc

  2. #422
    "MMO RPG"

    There is no RPG in BFA because they butchered the classes with over-pruning and then implemented the worst character/gear progression system WoW has ever seen.
    The content BFA offers might actually be semi decent and partly enjoyable if i could use the classes back as they were in MOP.

    There is no MMO in BFA because there is very little reason or enjoyment in venturing out into the outdoor WORLD of warcraft... teleport to raids/dungeons and that's it.
    The boring content is even worse to experience because of the awful classes being such boring shallow trash.

    Previous expansions had some of these problems as well but BFA is the first one to have such extreme issues in BOTH the MMO and the RPG aspects.
    Last edited by Aleksej89; 2019-03-21 at 12:53 PM.
    BfA = second worst product ever made by Blizzard.
    War3 Reforged took the title for worst product.

  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    "MMO RPG"

    There is no RPG in BFA because they butchered the classes with over-pruning and then implemented the worst character/gear progression system WoW has ever seen.
    There is no MMO in BFA because there is very little reason or enjoyment in venturing out into the outdoor WORLD of warcraft... teleport to raids/dungeons and that's it.

    Previous expansions had some of these problems as well but BFA is the first one to have such extreme issues in BOTH the MMO and the RPG aspects.
    Bfa is an action rpg. Perfect for diablo fans, but not even close to an mmo.

    I’ve played MUDs with more MmO feels than current wow does.

    Current wow is diablo 3 the mmo.

    Talent system? Diablo
    M+? Rifts
    Homogenized classes? You bet
    Differing levels of the samex gear fighting rng? Yup
    Solo players being able to get top end gear? Yup
    The world serving as a cheap quest hub with freebie gear? Yeah

    Bfa is more diablo 3 than vanilla wow

  4. #424
    Diablo 3 might be trash compared to diablo 2 or POExile but d3 is still an enjoyable game to a point.

    Battle for Azeroth is just straight up VILE and unpalatable garbage.
    Its bad doused with awful filled with lame and encrusted with boring.

    There is a big difference between a bad wow expansion (like lets say WOD) and a borderline unplayable one such as BFA.
    Even a bad one like WOD i played for several months and found a decent chunk of enjoyment.

    BFA is so appallingly bad that i quit in disgust a few weeks after it launched, even while my sub was still active.
    It has beautiful visuals and even decent questing zones but the classes, the ass-erite system, the gearing, the outdoor "content"... its all unredeemable.
    BfA = second worst product ever made by Blizzard.
    War3 Reforged took the title for worst product.

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    Diablo 3 might be trash compared to diablo 2 or POExile but d3 is still an enjoyable game to a point.

    Battle for Azeroth is just straight up VILE and unpalatable garbage.
    Its bad doused with awful filled with lame and encrusted with boring.

    There is a big difference between a bad wow expansion (like lets say WOD) and a borderline unplayable one such as BFA.
    Even a bad one like WOD i played for several months and found a decent chunk of enjoyment.

    BFA is so appallingly bad that i quit in disgust a few weeks after it launched, even while my sub was still active.
    It has beautiful visuals and even decent questing zones but the classes, the ass-erite system, the gearing, the outdoor "content"... its all unredeemable.
    Agree I wasn’t trying to make it seem like diablo 3 is awful, it’s just not what I want in my mmo rpg. An action rpg and mmorpg are two different genres, which is wh bfa has ran so many players away... half of its gear systems belong to diablo 3

    People play an mmo rpg to rpg and slowly build a character up, not to play seasonal diablo 3 with wow classes which is what Bfa has turned the game into

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    WOTLK was stupidly hardcore compared to current game. get out.
    No it wasn't. WoW was NEVER hardcore. Stop it with that nonsense.

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by roboscorcher View Post
    I agree that HotS streamlined the MOBA genre, much like WoW. I also think that HotS's weak playerbase has almost nothing to do with it.

    It has more to do with Blizzard ignoring the MOBA genre until *after* LoL's success. Then they fought a legal war with Valve over the Dota trademark and lost. Valve ran with the Dota dev that Blizzard ignored for years, and Dota2 became a decent competitor to LoL. HotS is a good game, but Blizzard had so much egg on their faces before the game even launched. And when it did, it lacked a lot of features it has now.
    Blizzard was late to the party but MOBA fans seem to be loyal to their respective game. If you look at battle royals, half a year ago people would have said that Fortnite had the genre in its death-grip but then Apex appeard and took a lot of its players. BR players seem to be constantly on the look for the next game while MOBA players never seem to move much at all.
    You never know.

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by mingarrubia View Post
    It's not casuals vs. hardcore players anymore. Right now it's raidloggers vs. people who actually want to play the game (aka everybody else, be it casuals or whatever).
    Pretty much this...

    Except I see it as people who want to play an MMORPG, and people who want to play a lobby game.

    The age of the Battle Royale is here. Blizzard is going for that new kid who only has an attention span of about 45 mins. Speed running a few Mythic + dungeons makes for a decent play session for them. Raiding a couple hours a couple nights week is pushing it.

    But if they don't see progression in that 45 mins or couple hours... forget it "da game suxes".

    This is Blizzard's (and by Blizzard I mean that asshat Ion) big failure. They are trying to cram a square peg into a round hole. You cannot make a MMORPG playable for small sessions, give away all the progression as rewards for logging in, then expect people to want to play more of it.

    But truth be told... WoW truly is doomed... because Blizzard doesn't care about releasing a quality game... they care about releasing a profitable game. Don't get me wrong.. Azeroth isn't dead... it's just waiting to be reborn on mobile. Some pseudo MMO-ARPG is coming... and modern WoW will soon be dropped... using the Classic series to soak up as much $$ as they can before finally letting WoW die.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    No it wasn't. WoW was NEVER hardcore. Stop it with that nonsense.
    Hardcore is a transient term. A game that requires 20= hour s a week for meaningful progression could be considered hardcore.

    A game someone COULD play 40 hours a week is hardcore.

    A game someone WANTS to play for 20-40 hours a week... is not BfA. lol

  9. #429
    The Lightbringer Daish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    This ENTIRE thing falls apart when you realize the most casual friendly expansion Wrath that people glorify these days was HYPER casual friendly and had over 11 million subs.
    i remember wiping for hours in 5 man dungeons many bosses had 1 shot mechanics in WOTLK it was not casual friendly

    Wintergrasp was awesome forcing the factions to fight over access to the world boss

  10. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    No it wasn't. WoW was NEVER hardcore. Stop it with that nonsense.
    Depends on what you compare it with. Vanilla was very casual when compared to the likes of EQ/UO, but almost hardcore when compared to BfA - at least in the outdoor world.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danuser
    we created a story structure for Sylvanas that, on the surface, echoed many broad strokes of the road Garrosh took (...). These parallels were intentional. But it's within the nuance that we sought to show the story grow and change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    BFA was about as nuanced as a golf club to the testicles/ovaries.

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    WOTLK was stupidly hardcore compared to current game. get out.
    Yet, it wasn't. And you clearly didn't play back then.

  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    WOTLK was stupidly hardcore compared to current game. get out.
    Im sorry that you FEEL the game was not made casual in wotlk.


    It's definitely when it started.

  13. #433
    I think the OP's post is a tremendous over-simplification, but not entirely off-base.

    Wrath WAS incredibly popular, and indeed, it had arguably the most catch-up mechanics of any expansion to date. I think it was also helped that A) it had already build a MASSIVE following from the hardcore gaming community during Vanilla and TBC, and B) it was able to lean heavily on Arthas and his story, which was both something fans wanted more of, and was a character easily relateable as a "mainstream" character (very much in the vein of Darth Vader; people love fall-from-grace storylines).

    Ultimately, while Wrath did a lot of great things, I think part of the issue is that we didn't really feel the true ramifications for its many changes until Cataclysm. Really, Cataclysm wasn't *MECHANICALLY* that different from Wrath. But it no longer had a story or setting that people connected with (Blizzard really hit on the rise "viking" stuff in pop-culture), and we started feeling the negative impact of changes originally set during Wrath. For example, Dungeon Finder was a phenomenal tool when people were used to spending sometimes hours putting together or finding groups. But by Cataclysm, we'd begun to see people abusing the system, being assholes with zero consequence, stuff like that.

    I really do think Blizzard would do well to make WoW more of an "RPG" once again, giving more choice to players (even if it means some "choices" are less competitive than others), making the world something you interact with more, personally investing more into individual characters (I would actually like to see Specs made a little more "permanent", maybe only getting one talent reset a month or having to "un-level" to refund skill points one at a time).

    I'd also say, the story has really kind of gone off the rails (and a "faction war" ceases to be interesting when -- by simple virtue of both factions being playable -- there CANNOT be a definitive "victor" in the conflict). I think Blizzard should consider some kind of a "reset button". I look forward to WoW Classic for much the same reason, but I think it would be a huge benefit if some major event occurred, and it completely changed the world. I've personally posed that maybe a time-skip would work; maybe almost all life on Azeroth is extinguished, but the Titan-Soul of Azeroth protects you and a few others, and "re-awakens" you in the distant future, when nature has reclaimed most of the world. Sort of a "Zelda: Breath of the Wild" vibe, where you're considered an "Ancient" by the tribes and clans that have sprung up since.

    It would also be a great way to give the entire world a face-lift, and maybe reconcile some of the weird time-gaps between expansions (I suppose Warlords of Draenor could remain largely the same).

  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    People just missing the point really. 5 % of people (maybe) cleared HC raids, casuals didn't clear top raids any more then than they do now. The game itself isn't top content, it's everything else, and it was not casual friendly like it is now, you would never, ever get as good gear or progress your character as far as a gladiator or a top raider without doing those things. Now literally the only required thing is time spent.

    In current game player power is equalized completely, time put in equals power, with nothing else in the equation. And it's a single player experience. Go figure.
    Go ahead and link your gray parse LFR/Normal warcraftlogs page.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstrike View Post
    Maybe if all you do in this game is warfronts and pet battles...

    No, not even then.

    Nax / OS were a joke on every difficulty, except maybe 3 drakes 10-man where you just needed half a brain to not get burned by the lava wave. Need I remind you that Nax was also re-hashed content? The Nexus raid was also a disappointing mess.

    BFA's LFR is more hardcore than WOTLK's release raids. Change my mind.

    The only thing I honestly kindof wish was in BfA is a structured WPvP zone ala Wintergrasp, instead of warmode; But even that was largely just a baby's first raid available to more numerous faction, that dropped tier sets for 0 effort.
    I mean Warfronts is just Wintergrasp against NPCs.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    The history of HotS:
    It started out being called Blizzard Dota. It had the Dota map, it had items, it had everything that was needed to be concidered a competetor to LoL and Dota 2. It was just a SC2 custom map. Blizzard showed it off on a Blizzcon at an early stage, and people really loved it!

    Then they decided to move it out of SC2 to their own game. Here, they started "innovating". They changed name to Heroes of the Storm, removed items, they made some gimmicky maps etc. to a point it could no longer be concidered a competetor to the MOBAs anymore. "Streamline and make it more accessable!". Nobody wanted to switch from LoL or Dota 2 to this game. Basically telling the LoL and Dota 2 players that love blizzard "you are not the target audience anymore, sorry". Sure there were a small amount that switched, but LoL and Dota 2 did NOT lose any noticable playerbase when HotS released. Blizzard went from targeting the MOBA community to caitering to the casual MOBA community that BARELY EXISTS. The game is now basically in "maintenance mode", it's dead.

    The same can be said about WoW. "Streamline and make it more accessable!". The people that enjoyed Classic and TBC WoW are today told "you are not the target audience anymore, sorry" and instead they target this casual MMORPG community that BARELY EXISTS. See the resemblence?

    And they are wondering why the numbers keep dropping. Wonder if they even see the parallel to HotS. Probably not, so expect WoW in "maintenance mode" in a few years.

    TL;DR: Heroes of the Storms is a MOBA made for people that does not like MOBAs. BfA is a MMORPG made for people that does not like MMORPGs.
    Slightly off topic, but it reminds me of game streaming. It's gaming for people that do not like gaming. I've also been told "you are not the target anymore" about it quite a few times since the google announcement as well, when I complain about touch controls on a tablet, or latency in a single player offline game, or the(lack of) necessity of a subscription model that is being pushed anyway, so customers can no longer vote with their wallet, and no longer demand quality games because the price of their subscription(in their mind) is cheap, so cheap games are good enough.

  16. #436
    Legendary! Nnyco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retak View Post
    Better than: "Pay 1.000.000 gold to be mythic geared."
    If you require boosting to raid mythic, thats on you then.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Crabs have been removed from the game... because if I see another one I’m just going to totally lose it. *sobbing* I’m sorry, I just can’t right now... I just... OK just give me a minute, I’ll be OK..

  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    WOTLK was stupidly hardcore compared to current game. get out.
    Did I play the same expansion? Because I recall raiding being insanely easy in WOTLK. Naxx was a complete joke of a raid. Bosses easier than LFR. I raid today with the same guild I did then. We plowed through most of icecrown with the exception of Lich King 25. Let's compare that to today. I can promise you almost all of mythic is harder than Icecrown heroic. You could easily pug most of Icecrown heroic also. You are not going to see pugs clearing up to Jaina mythic. I would actually be surprised if the average pug (average not a bunch of mythic raiders on alts) are able to go more than 2-3 bosses.

  18. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    The history of HotS:
    It started out being called Blizzard Dota. It had the Dota map, it had items, it had everything that was needed to be concidered a competetor to LoL and Dota 2. It was just a SC2 custom map. Blizzard showed it off on a Blizzcon at an early stage, and people really loved it!

    Then they decided to move it out of SC2 to their own game. Here, they started "innovating". They changed name to Heroes of the Storm, removed items, they made some gimmicky maps etc. to a point it could no longer be concidered a competetor to the MOBAs anymore. "Streamline and make it more accessable!". Nobody wanted to switch from LoL or Dota 2 to this game. Basically telling the LoL and Dota 2 players that love blizzard "you are not the target audience anymore, sorry". Sure there were a small amount that switched, but LoL and Dota 2 did NOT lose any noticable playerbase when HotS released. Blizzard went from targeting the MOBA community to caitering to the casual MOBA community that BARELY EXISTS. The game is now basically in "maintenance mode", it's dead.

    The same can be said about WoW. "Streamline and make it more accessable!". The people that enjoyed Classic and TBC WoW are today told "you are not the target audience anymore, sorry" and instead they target this casual MMORPG community that BARELY EXISTS. See the resemblence?

    And they are wondering why the numbers keep dropping. Wonder if they even see the parallel to HotS. Probably not, so expect WoW in "maintenance mode" in a few years.

    TL;DR: Heroes of the Storms is a MOBA made for people that does not like MOBAs. BfA is a MMORPG made for people that does not like MMORPGs.
    You can't compare them like that since they are totally different.

    For example, if HotS was the same as DotA, games would still last around the 1 hour mark and players can play and "progress" them whenever they have free time (except of course for people participating in tournaments but that's a different story).

    Now if BfA had the same philosophy as TBC a huge chunk of the player base would be unable to progress they characters past a certain point. Raids required a guild, guilds required availability on a schedule. pretty much anyone that didn't have the time to commit to 4 hours for at least 2-3 days would be stuck running heroics and an entry raid, as was the case in BC.

    The "hardcore target audience" is still being maintained with Mythic raids, it's just that the others now have access to it in a different form. Also it is the hardcore community the one that barley exists.

    Is it good or bad to be accessible in other difficulties .. well it has positives and negatives. Positive is obvious, that everyone can experience some content in some form. The negative is that it takes the feel of accomplishment and prestige. If in BC you were one of those guys that managed to kill Kael'thas now if you kill Jaina on mythic, you're just another guy that killed her.
    Warlock soloing https://www.youtube.com/user/Firedemon012 (old & abandoned)

  19. #439
    Pandaren Monk roboscorcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    Blizzard was late to the party but MOBA fans seem to be loyal to their respective game. If you look at battle royals, half a year ago people would have said that Fortnite had the genre in its death-grip but then Apex appeard and took a lot of its players. BR players seem to be constantly on the look for the next game while MOBA players never seem to move much at all.
    You never know.
    That's a good point, Sunk Cost Fallacy does play into LoL's dominance as well. I wonder if it applies less when paying for a BattlePass that mostly offers limited-time items.

    I also think that the general Battle Royale population is less loyal to any single company than MOBA fans. There are more casuals and new gamers in BR games, from my experience. These people are more likely to try new titles than veterans.

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    This ENTIRE thing falls apart when you realize the most casual friendly expansion Wrath that people glorify these days was HYPER casual friendly and had over 11 million subs.
    At the time, it was very casual-friendly for an MMO. However, you could argue there is a "sweet spot" for an MMO to cater to both audiences. I think Wrath did that well (even with its innovative hard-mode for raid bosses). That pendulum has kept on swinging though...

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