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  1. #441
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    I love how all these posts come from people who obviously didn't play the game at the time.

    WoW got successful because it was the most casual MMO on the market.
    For real. All I ever hear from people who were really in it from the beginning or got a good chunk (Last 6 months of classic myself) is that it was made to be casual when it came out.

  2. #442
    Quote Originally Posted by avx81 View Post
    Did I play the same expansion? Because I recall raiding being insanely easy in WOTLK. Naxx was a complete joke of a raid. Bosses easier than LFR. I raid today with the same guild I did then. We plowed through most of icecrown with the exception of Lich King 25. Let's compare that to today. I can promise you almost all of mythic is harder than Icecrown heroic. You could easily pug most of Icecrown heroic also. You are not going to see pugs clearing up to Jaina mythic. I would actually be surprised if the average pug (average not a bunch of mythic raiders on alts) are able to go more than 2-3 bosses.
    Overall LK was easy, early raids and dungeons were a joke yes.

    Still, the later dungeons, some of Ulduar HMs and ICC Hc without the buff saved the expansion imo. They might not be the pinacle of dificulty this game has ever seen, but it's unfair to consider the expansion that gave us Mimiron HM, Yogg HM and LK hc as insanely easy, they were challenging and most important for me, they were fun!

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by avx81 View Post
    Did I play the same expansion? Because I recall raiding being insanely easy in WOTLK. Naxx was a complete joke of a raid. Bosses easier than LFR. I raid today with the same guild I did then. We plowed through most of icecrown with the exception of Lich King 25. Let's compare that to today. I can promise you almost all of mythic is harder than Icecrown heroic. You could easily pug most of Icecrown heroic also. You are not going to see pugs clearing up to Jaina mythic. I would actually be surprised if the average pug (average not a bunch of mythic raiders on alts) are able to go more than 2-3 bosses.
    Basing off the argument how "casual friendly" Wotlk was compared to BfA is based on the difficulty ignores crucial aspects of the equation.

    BfA has systems that Wotlk simply did not have.

    Wotlk didn't have a weekly Warfront / Warfront World Boss that had the chance of throwing an heroic (or ~25Man of [current Wotlk raid) at you.
    You had Archavons vault, which at best only dropped Pants / Gloves of the current Tier set, that's it.

    On a difficulty level, i would argue BfA has far harder content (ignoring the decade that passed between these expansions), however in Wotlk the catch up / gearing process was way more streamlined.

    No M+.
    No Weekly cache.
    No Warfronts.
    No LFR.
    PvP gear being strictly worse for PvE.

    In Wotlk, you still didn't move forward if you didn't log in, you had to get badges in order to buy an item every ~two weeks.
    In BfA, you can log in, do your weekly M+, Warfront, World Boss, and still move decently forward in terms of gearing.

    Wotlk was less casual friendly in terms of gearing, but had less difficult content overall.
    BfA is more casual friendly in terms of gearing, but has more difficult content overall.

    I am not disagreeing with you, but we shouldn't limit this discussion to difficulty, the "game modes" and their rewards (or the quantity) have expanded considerably since Wotlk.

  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Literally the one to which I refer. You talked (with that person) about content "hardcoreness", and I pointed out to you angle of inaccuracy at level which you are trying to compare it in (due to concepts separation of content and progress in devs' heads and consequently - design)
    ------
    if in brief:
    ...if you compare content, then new one is many times easier, and if you compare progress, then due to its technical component (boss mechanics/unattainability due to characteristics of itemization) it's easier in old version, which doesn't prevent it from being more difficult for other reasons (raids' group mechanics (threat vs resource managment, preparing), although this is also a question with regard to "illegal" toolkit size, which most modern players (had to?) have), which means that answer isn't simple and comparison process requires additional parameters;
    ...when we talked about progress before, we also mostly meant specific content available to you and now this won't be true (raids are content and progress, bosses are stages of content and progress, but modes aren't any of it since you already saw everything here; it's just a little bit more of progress (ilvl/ap?), but not content, if gameplay is interesting enough, it could turn into something resembling PvP seasons and can be quite entertaining, but, I repeat, neither this nor the other is content and you know it; competitions (E-sport?) is virtually lack of content and gameplay is the only thing (together with "watching its shou") that they offer you)
    ------

    Actually, everything is written there, I don't see what could create some kind of difficulty in understanding

    ps. The key: "current" complexity system (most progress part) has nothing to do with content, unlike "previous" one.
    Still makes no sense what so ever.

  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by Maudib View Post
    Pretty much this...

    Except I see it as people who want to play an MMORPG, and people who want to play a lobby game.

    The age of the Battle Royale is here. Blizzard is going for that new kid who only has an attention span of about 45 mins. Speed running a few Mythic + dungeons makes for a decent play session for them. Raiding a couple hours a couple nights week is pushing it.

    But if they don't see progression in that 45 mins or couple hours... forget it "da game suxes".

    This is Blizzard's (and by Blizzard I mean that asshat Ion) big failure. They are trying to cram a square peg into a round hole. You cannot make a MMORPG playable for small sessions, give away all the progression as rewards for logging in, then expect people to want to play more of it.

    But truth be told... WoW truly is doomed... because Blizzard doesn't care about releasing a quality game... they care about releasing a profitable game. Don't get me wrong.. Azeroth isn't dead... it's just waiting to be reborn on mobile. Some pseudo MMO-ARPG is coming... and modern WoW will soon be dropped... using the Classic series to soak up as much $$ as they can before finally letting WoW die.

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    Hardcore is a transient term. A game that requires 20= hour s a week for meaningful progression could be considered hardcore.

    A game someone COULD play 40 hours a week is hardcore.

    A game someone WANTS to play for 20-40 hours a week... is not BfA. lol
    Umm, ending with MoP, the game still had that "45 min" reward system -> VALOR/justice points. With a weekly cap, so players won't feel overwhelmed.
    It worked.
    They destroyed it.
    BlizzTM

  6. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    In Classic and TBC the game grew in popularity. In Wrath it stopped growing. It was also not the "most casual friendly expansion" at all. Do I need to mention it did not have LFR?
    Classic and TBC exploded due to word of mouth on a new and growing genre. WoW made MMO's accessible to casual audiences, who treated this as a new experience despite MMO's existing many years prior. WoW WAS the Casual MMO from the very beginning. Its competition was the likes of Everquest, Asheron's Call and FFXI, which were much more difficult games to get into.

    I mean this argument is like saying MOBAs are stopping growth now and trying to draw a conclusion that it's because of 'recent changes to the genre' rather than looking at the bigger picture - that MOBAs are an aging genre like any other.

    Battle Royales are the big thing right now. In 6 years from now, when populations start to dwindle, should we all be pointing at changes to the game as the reason why people start to leave? Gaming trends are predictable because the gamer demographic is fickle and always looking for new experiences. Aging games will always reach dropoff points.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2019-03-21 at 06:12 PM.

  7. #447
    It's stupid that devs no longer wanna make a better game, they just wanna make a "different" game.

  8. #448
    Quote Originally Posted by Greyscale View Post
    And not due to aggressive TV-commercial runs starring "household names" like William Shatner, Mr. T and Verne Troyer (among others)?
    The sub numbers were already high before those TV commercials even came into play. They certainly helped but no more or less than other advertisements.

    I mean Fortnite doesn't have any TV ads invlving Shatner, and still has millions of players right?

  9. #449
    I was master and even grand master for a moment during my ranked carrer in hots but i was also in gold and silver. Matchmaking was fine during beta and after some time it started to be bad because of noobs who could be placed even in diamond after their very first 10 ranked games. They even chnged it so a lot of ppl missed season to have their qm mmr coppied into ranked mmr for easy master 1k pts.

    My point is that they ruined ranked this way. Skill difference between players on same rank was huge and instead of trying to fix it they started adding new brawls and improvememts to quick match.

    On top of that never balanced new heroes. Some of them were bad and some of them were stupidly overpowered. Easy many for blizzard.

    Btw how can anyone say that wotll was casual friendly? You had to farm honor for pvp off-parts and after that rating for set and other things. On top of that there were clases that had need of pve gear like warrior espesially during s8 so yiu had to do both pvp and pve. Imagine difference between disc priest with double solace or solace + bauble vs disc priest with pvp trinkets.

    Also no lfr, you had to join guild to rly raid or wipe with pugs.

  10. #450
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    ...and instead they target this casual MMORPG community that BARELY EXISTS.
    Yeahhhh, I'm gonna have to ask you for a source on that there statement, skippy.

    Also, IMO, what you state is a contradiciton. There is no "Casual MMORPG" community. There's just 'casual players of games' - which I'm more than betting is a far far FAAAAR larger crowd than a bunch of "hardcore" MMO-RPG no-lifers...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Classic and TBC exploded due to word of mouth on a new and growing genre.
    ...and was riding the success/hype of Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings movie trilogy

    ...and was infinetly more accessible to the casual audience of that era (compared to EQ at the time).

    ...and was also the first MMORPG available for Mac users (which is why I started playing it, incidentally ^_^)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    Umm, ending with MoP, the game still had that "45 min" reward system -> VALOR/justice points. With a weekly cap, so players won't feel overwhelmed.
    It worked.
    They destroyed it.
    BlizzTM
    I'd argue the first time they (should've) learned that lesson was in Catafailure - for what you said applied there as well, and with every launch of that fukwit expansion in every world zone - the audience started dropping like bricks at the first month. >_<

    But, the people who learned that lesson (Ghostcrawler, ect) aren't there anymore, and now you've got the Ion Hitzakutzafukzawhatzits pining to reclaim his EQ glory days, repeating the same mistakes the previous staff made over and over again...

  11. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhade1337 View Post
    Sorry but making the game more casual friendly is what's ruining the game, everywone want:
    - insta max lvl
    - insta max gear
    - insta alt rdy geared
    - insta all

    Sorry kids you need to work for those insta all, not log in and have epics in your mail rdy to equip. The game is a lot more different from back in wotlk than today. WoW is on a downhill atm with all these free lot everywhere with all the kids screaming they want loot faster and then when you get it all after a week or two you guys say: there is no content.
    All seem to hate to grind something and say cba doing this or that.
    End of runt, enjoy the game you guys cry over stuff to change and here we are with bfa and the state it is now.
    Making the game more casual friendly, more accessible to even newer players or returning players is what is keeping the game alive right now. Blizzard doesn't give 2 cents about what your opinion is of how the game should be or not, because you and those like you are in a small minority and appeasing that small group isn't going to pay the bills. If they did, WoW would have died out years ago(maybe even tried F2P for a year).

    Seriously, it's 2019 and we're in 8.something and people are complaining about how casual friendly and accessibility is ruining the game, when it's been casual friendly since WotLK or even TBC with pvp epics. You're about 10ish years too late to complain about what Blizzard is doing to keep the game running.

  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by Greyscale View Post
    They do have plenty of Youtube and Twitch spots though with the crossover with Marvel (Thanos) probably being the most well known.
    Kids don't watch TV anymore, so these days you don't advertise there.
    I tend to lump Twitch and Social media in with Word of Mouth. It's the new way of spreading information.

    I don't think advertisements really affect much. Fortnite hit peak numbers well before they spammed twitch advertisements. They certainly help, but people don't play games that they see ads of, they play games their friends play.

  13. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    I think the OP's post is a tremendous over-simplification, but not entirely off-base.

    Wrath WAS incredibly popular, and indeed, it had arguably the most catch-up mechanics of any expansion to date. I think it was also helped that A) it had already build a MASSIVE following from the hardcore gaming community during Vanilla and TBC, and B) it was able to lean heavily on Arthas and his story, which was both something fans wanted more of, and was a character easily relateable as a "mainstream" character (very much in the vein of Darth Vader; people love fall-from-grace storylines).

    Ultimately, while Wrath did a lot of great things, I think part of the issue is that we didn't really feel the true ramifications for its many changes until Cataclysm. Really, Cataclysm wasn't *MECHANICALLY* that different from Wrath. But it no longer had a story or setting that people connected with (Blizzard really hit on the rise "viking" stuff in pop-culture), and we started feeling the negative impact of changes originally set during Wrath. For example, Dungeon Finder was a phenomenal tool when people were used to spending sometimes hours putting together or finding groups. But by Cataclysm, we'd begun to see people abusing the system, being assholes with zero consequence, stuff like that.

    I really do think Blizzard would do well to make WoW more of an "RPG" once again, giving more choice to players (even if it means some "choices" are less competitive than others), making the world something you interact with more, personally investing more into individual characters (I would actually like to see Specs made a little more "permanent", maybe only getting one talent reset a month or having to "un-level" to refund skill points one at a time).

    I'd also say, the story has really kind of gone off the rails (and a "faction war" ceases to be interesting when -- by simple virtue of both factions being playable -- there CANNOT be a definitive "victor" in the conflict). I think Blizzard should consider some kind of a "reset button". I look forward to WoW Classic for much the same reason, but I think it would be a huge benefit if some major event occurred, and it completely changed the world. I've personally posed that maybe a time-skip would work; maybe almost all life on Azeroth is extinguished, but the Titan-Soul of Azeroth protects you and a few others, and "re-awakens" you in the distant future, when nature has reclaimed most of the world. Sort of a "Zelda: Breath of the Wild" vibe, where you're considered an "Ancient" by the tribes and clans that have sprung up since.

    It would also be a great way to give the entire world a face-lift, and maybe reconcile some of the weird time-gaps between expansions (I suppose Warlords of Draenor could remain largely the same).
    Burning it all down and starting again would not be the worst idea in the world.

  14. #454
    What used to be considered "casual" in WOTLK is very different from what is considered "casual" today. Nowadays casuals want to be able to play a game straight out of the box. No gear grind, no leveling process, no build up of power, log in and go kill bad guys or good guys or w/e floats your boat. Today's casual player has the attention span of a Hummingbird on crack. If Blizzard continues to alienate their core audience, they're doomed and what you forecast will be a reality.

  15. #455
    Wrath is way harder than BFA, in BFA you can just que LFR and see endgame, spam Warfront and be Heroic geared, not to mention every class is dumbed down so the casuals can play them (Warrior Stance, DK Runes, etc).

    People legit can play with their feet and get 400 ilvl gear at the end of BOD, its definitely the most casual and accesible version of MMORPG, just like what Ghostcrawler said, its tuned for grandmas (the bad kind of casuals).

  16. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Burning it all down and starting again would not be the worst idea in the world.
    Probably true. At the very least, I think the *story* needs a reset-button, because it's kind of jumped the shark, while at the same time, I don't know anyone who actually gives a shit about these "Void Lords". Moreover, their implementation in the story has kind of come at the expense of how omnipotent Sargeras and the Titans were *SUPPOSED* to be.

    I think just wiping the slate clean might be a good move, honestly.

  17. #457
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    WOTLK was stupidly hardcore compared to current game. get out.

    It was only difficult cause you probably started playing back then. Heroic Dungeons were a joke. Naxx was one difficulty that was full cleared the day it came out. The only fights that took a long time to kill were Yogg 0 and Lich King Heroic because they were dps checks and without titanforging/warforging you were time gated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikazukinoyaiba View Post
    Wrath is way harder than BFA, in BFA you can just que LFR and see endgame, spam Warfront and be Heroic geared, not to mention every class is dumbed down so the casuals can play them (Warrior Stance, DK Runes, etc).

    People legit can play with their feet and get 400 ilvl gear at the end of BOD, its definitely the most casual and accesible version of MMORPG, just like what Ghostcrawler said, its tuned for grandmas (the bad kind of casuals).
    And in Wrath you could play an Arcane Mage spam Arcane Blast without having to worry about conserve/spend playstyle and be top damage. If you played a Disc Priest you just PW:S the raid before the AoE damage (it lasted 30 seconds back then) and you were top healer. If you had Shadowmourne you just lol’d your way to 2k+ rating.
    Last edited by muto; 2019-03-22 at 07:31 PM.

  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    WOTLK was stupidly hardcore compared to current game. get out.
    I don't remember it being hardcore at all.

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    It was only difficult cause you probably started playing back then. Heroic Dungeons were a joke. Naxx was one difficulty that was full cleared the day it came out. The only fights that took a long time to kill were Yogg 0 and Lich King Heroic because they were dps checks and without titanforging/warforging you were time gated.

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    And in Wrath you could play an Arcane Mage spam Arcane Blast without having to worry about conserve/spend playstyle and be top damage. If you played a Disc Priest you just PW:S the raid before the AoE damage (it lasted 30 seconds back then) and you were top healer. If you had Shadowmourne you just lol’d your way to 2k+ rating.
    Easy spec like Frost DK and Arcane Mage has always been exists since BC, in BFA every class is easy grandma version of itself.

    And you talk like getting Shadowmourne is easy enough for the average person, or for them to get 2k in the first place LMAO.

    Every garbage players in BFA can get Heroic geared or 2.1k rated pvp ilvl, dont talk about WOTLK being easy if you play BFA, its tuned for Grandmas.

  20. #460
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Burning it all down and starting again would not be the worst idea in the world.
    While I very much agree with the sentiment, I really doubt old, lazy Blizz will ever do anything like it... Maybe for a (VERY unlikely) WoW2, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danuser
    we created a story structure for Sylvanas that, on the surface, echoed many broad strokes of the road Garrosh took (...). These parallels were intentional. But it's within the nuance that we sought to show the story grow and change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    BFA was about as nuanced as a golf club to the testicles/ovaries.

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